Karaoke Forums

First, let's ask questions before we leap, and you've asked one good one.  Why am I really upset, SIMPLE , I don't see any future in my plans to do karaoke when I retire and I have already made a substantial investment in it.  While it might be good in five years (I doubt it)  What about 10 years.

Dbk1099 shouldn't have mentioned the $15 lifetime fee charged by the bar IT IS A LEGAL CONTRIVANCE TO HAVE AN AFTER-HOURS CLUB.  IT NEEDS DAILY REVENUES FROM PAYING CUSTOMERS (KARAOKE SINGERS)

There are few divas where I go and drinkers are not needed, but can help.  Just buying food would be enuf.  There just isn't enough interest for venue owners to promote karaoke when they see what it attracts.  It looks good until you run a Z tape.  

Gotta run for now!

Now who ever said any business venture will be profitable.  Not every business succeeds.  Only a fool goes into business thinking they will be an instant success.  Even with hard work, a business may fail for any myriad of reasons, which there are too many to list here.

If business is not going the way you like and you do not want to persevere, then do the intelligent thing and sell.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Please don't shout, especially when you are making unfounded comments!  No way did I paint a picture about unknown circumstances.  I was stating a FACTUAL occurrance that happened at a bar I used to frequent.  You seem too eager to dispel everyone else's statements as pure conjecture and theory while expounding everything you say as fact.




I have no need to show any sympathy for the owner of any bar that demonstrates such disregard for his customers and his business.  As I said above, diplomacy can go a long way to making a better business.  Remember that the original thread entitled "Dumb Bar Owner" was addressing the way in which the bar owner took the action he did and how it resulted in paying customers walking out.


   

The message I got  wasn't too subtle.  Seemed you were trying to say that the possibility that a non-drinker might just be a designated driver could not ever be fact, therefore rejecting the suggestion that a non-drinker might be justified in being there.  Remember that in the beginning of the first thread on this matter, you weren't specifying UNACCOMPANIED non-drinkers.  You only specified that when you decided to resurrect this discussion in this thread.  Otherwise the designated driver would not have been brought up in the first place!


   

No, you are not generalising about what you experience, but applying arguments based on what you experience to situations that others are presenting.  As I have said, I agree with your stance that the bar management should take action.  But I also agree with the stance of others in this forum which they are basing on the situations they have experienced.  

In other words, there are some situations where non-spenders should be made to feel unwelcome, and other situations where they should not.  It would be unwise to generalise and say all non-spending singers be expelled, just as it would be to generalise and say none of them should be.

TIME OUT!......

*Dons my Black & White ref shirt*

OK.......Joe- thank you understanding what I am trying to say, and for the record, I am dbk, not disc, but I knew who you meant.....

Eric- I think perhaps the only true answer is one we don't like- WHY do we CONDONE/EXCUSE non-spenders?

WE HAVE NO CHOICE!

Part of the hosting job is diplomacy. As a host I cannot tell you to leave because you are taing up a table without spending money and I have a table of drinkers looking to sit there. What I can do is pull the bartender/manager aside and let them know the situation so they can say/do something.

Unfortunately, it seems that most of the bars around here with this problem are venues where the ONLY people there are non spenders. My 1st show was like that and it was both a blessing and a curse. I didn't make any money, because the place never made money, but I learned how to juggle divas, water drinkers, owners, and singers.

There is a group here that consists of 3-12 people that travel loosely together. They are the problem, because 90% are aweful singers, and combined they may spent $10-20 a night for the whole bunch. They tend to travel from show to show, and there is no avoiding them. THESE are the people that make Eric IRATE!! When you are a paying customer and have to sit thru 8-9 horrible singers with nothing but tap water glasses at their table, you get frustrated and wonder what the point of spending money is if you get the same treatment as the losers....

This problem kept me out of hosting for over a year. After an arguement with a "dumb owner" I found it impossible to get a new show, because as soon as this group heard about my venue, they showed up and killed it. When I got this CURRENT venue, I did not send out my normal email blast. I went in and took the existing crowd and worked with them. By the time this other group came to my show, they had nowhere to sit, and had to wait 45-60 minutes to sing 1 song. They got annoyed and left and (thankfullly) haven't been back.

So is South Florida is an anomoly, I understand. After all we are the crazies capitol of the world! But, can anyone here come up with a better suggestion to deal with a group such as I am describing? Even if you have (luckily) never encountered anything like it......

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Let's Kick the Tires and Light the Fires!

Not such a case of condoning/excusing, rather a case of tolerating!



Yep, I have seen a similar situation, on the other side of the world than Florida.  So it could be seen as a worldwide problem, not just isolated to one area.  But as you say, all you can do is let management know your feelings and hope they do something, diplomatically and not in a "dumb" way!  Good on ya for getting them off ya back!

I had an owner ask me how many singers I could "bring in" at my last weekend show (first time there). (By way of clarification, they've been "trying" karaoke businesses to have on a regular rotation every other weekend.) I was kinda shocked by the question. I know bar owners look for entertainment to draw in new customers, but just like any other business, it takes time to get a regular clientèle.

I think our job is even harder since even our regulars at one bar might take time to "migrate" somewhere else for a new show. I mean, a bar stays in one place & people are used to it being there. We travel to different places (sometimes week-to-week other than our regular gigs), and some people are more willing to travel to our shows than others.

I think you made the right move in the end. He wasn't willing to even consider your (professional) advice until you (kinda frankly) made the decision to refuse a regular gig down there. That hints to me that he's more desperate than you are.

DBK,

   My apologies for the handle error.  I read fast and moved on...ONce again I thank you for your concise posting.  What you have written is the answer to your own question.  You built a crowd of regulars singers and drinkers and minimized the other group. You did this with GOOD HOSTING TECHNIQUES.

  To be as concise as you, a good host will not have much of a problem, and a mediocre one will.

  The MAJOR problems in your area seem to be at the smallest venues, per the descriptions that I've read (PLEASE correct me quickly if I misunderstood)  My guess is they are paying the very minimum they can for a host to keep expenses down because they're not going to make more due to volume buying. I'm only guessing, but the very small fees paid probably don't attract the most, um, skilled Karaoke Hosts. Probably not a host at all, but a KJ who pushes buttons and says "next".

  You have shown what good hosting skills can do, but you can't make an owner of a tiny venue pay for it.  

   As for a decline in karaoke:  It runs in cycles, and has been since it was bought here many years ago.  In my area, "American Idol" is at least partially responsible for bringing back a major revival.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

[quote="jamkaraoke @ Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:10 am"]
The karaoke night is sponsered by miller light and they offer prizes every 15 minutes ( tshirts etc)

Never thought about it, but should KJ's look for sponsers or should the bar owners?

I have a bar within 4 blocks from me that has a sign for Wednesday night that reads, "KARAOKE Contest and Free Food".

Folks have said it's mostly their family...  BUT they buy MANY drinks...

So, why would that bar owner not want to keep them?

From what I hear, it's the bar's speaker/amp. set up as they play a lot of bands on the weekends.

The KJ only needs plug in the CDG player and lay out the song books + bring the food.

NO they don't have a great sound, but they have been there 3 years so far.

Just some input....

And just to add, I would not even think of trying to get a weekend gig there...

At least in the rural areas where I live, I think you are right. We tend to ride the tail-end of a wave here -- in the big cities it may be on the downswing.

I never had seen a karaoke show until two years ago.  I don't normally go to bars as I don't drink, but one night my family had a pre-memorial service dinner at a restaurant that featured it.  My wife and I got up and sang, and we had a blast. When I quit smoking a couple of months later, I decided I would start singing as an incentive to stay quit.

But even then, I am sure we never had karaoke in our town like we do now. Heck, on a friday night recently our little teeny town had four karaoke shows within 5 miles of each other!

At least in my case, the bars and restaurants get a customer they would never have a chance of having without karaoke. There may be others like me -- but I don't know, I am a bit of a nut about it.

You have almost got it now Joe, just one thing- the majority ofplaces around here are the smaller venues. The place I do on Friday nights maybe holds 150 people. It is probably the biggest venue around here I have done....

The going rate for a small to medium venue is $100-125 p/nt. The problem is that they may only be bringing in $200 or so for the night.

I think this is a GENERAL problem in most areas- how do you play a smaller venue and still make it profitable for you AND the owner? Or is this another discussion entirely?

Side note.....stop Joe- your making me blush...

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Let's Kick the Tires and Light the Fires!

DBK
In your last post you wondered outloud if non-spenders should be pointed out to management?

In your last post you wondered if the situation in here So FL is an anamoly?

In your post previous to that you noted how there are non-spenders that take up space and utilize resources at your show

In that same post you also asked, on two occasions, for suggestions/help in addressing the problem of  non-spenders

Somone else in this thread just noted that karaoke is declining and that nonspenders have nothing to do with that.

DjDawg in his post seemed IMO embarassed to talk about the nonspending singers at his show.  Why?  I think it's because he realizes that the nonspenders were "his" customers, while the rest of the customers who spent money were the "bars" customers.

Now, with due respect to the success of your show (one of the best around), you know that all of the hosting skills in the world will not eliminate this problem.  I hope your questions get addressed.  The problem is real and it will/does exist beyond our market.  There maybe no solution, but karaoke can't be helped by ignoring it.  One member of this forum, Bflat, has already explained why he sings online.

If KJ's do nothing in regard to this problem, more venue owners will become disgusted with Karaoke, more singers (like me) will look for other venues to sing at where the rotation is in my opinion "fair".  And I not suggesting that the solution lies in hosting skills.  

To clarify just one of the things I recently said that was misunderstood.  If I find a venue without the tightwads, the reason has nothing to do with the host.  One way I can avoid the tightwads is to go to a show with a late start.   Without explaining why that works, a couple of shows I've been to start at 10pm.  I know of two such shows on Sun and two on Wed.   Sometime, though, that's too late for me! So, starting a show late is not a could solution to avoiding the tightwads!

Of course, when a venue has a large crowd, a 1/2 dozen tightwads are inconsequential.  As karaoke continues to decline in popularity (as it has here), the audiences become smaller and it then becomes impossible to ignore the tightwads.

While it's unlikely that Karaoke at public venues will ever be as popular as it was 10 years ago, it will virtually disappear in public venues if something is not done.  The diehard nonspenders travel all over our area, almost every night of the week.  They participate in the singing rotations, they take up space, they add nothing to the Z tapes (Profits of the venue) of any consequence.  

Dave, I don't believe for one moment that we are exeriencing an anomly in So FL.
I know that karaoke is on the demise everywhere.  I also know that people are people everywhere you go.   AND I KNOW that the nonspenders are hastening the demise of karaoke here.  I have to believe (with DjDawg's Post), therefore, that they are having/will have an impact elsewhere.  

Robin, in consideration of our joint experieces and my concerns, has suggested we forget about karaoke in our retirement plans.  In fact, she is disgusted with it altogether at this point, and I concur.  So, we're cutting our loses and "running" far from karaoke as a business and as a primary form of entertainment when we go out.    

PS.  Remember how many prominent Country & Western places existed here 10 years ago?  There used to be three just between Dixie & Federal off of Sample Rd.  I taught dancing back in those days at several of those spots.  When I predicted the demise of C&W venues (for reasons I won't bore you with now), no one could relate to what I was saying.  And as you might realize, there's only one notable C&W venue in all of Broward Cty today, and it wasn't even around back in the hayday.  And it opended using a completely different business model!  But let's not get into models and plans.  OVER AND OUT

Well part of the reason Joe had me blushing was his attributing my success to my hosting skills. Whils I appreciate the compliment, and certainly think I am a more than competent host, I most definately CANNOT take the credit.

I got lucky that this venue seems to fill up quickly with paying patrons, not allowing time or room for the freeloaders. Do I still get them? Yup. But there are enough people there so they are not noticed by management.

I know we are not unusual in south FL, but I think the unfortunate reality is that there really isn't too much we can do about it. I think the problems karaoke has right now is the perception that everyone has to be a great singer, and that is coming from the non singing patrons, the management, and singers alike. Very few people are left that do it for the fun or uniqueness anymore.

I think this is similar to any trend- it came out, hit the scene HARD, got overdone, people had enough, and now they are starting to think about it again, but it will NEVER hit the original heights again. Pardon the non karaoke refrence, but look at the new Elmo doll- when the 1st Elmo craze hit about 5 or 6 years ago, it was MADNESS! People were killing to get one. After that holiday season, the demand dipped, but they kept selling strong. Now they introduced the new Elmo, and there was a craze, but nowhere near the madness it originally was.

That is my take on the current state of karaoke- it is maturing to a consistant level, but will never be as big again as it once was.

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Let's Kick the Tires and Light the Fires!

I still stand by that as well, non-spenders have very little to do with the downfall of karaoke.  Piracy & lowballers that have no clue on how to run a show is the main causes.  Crappy shows take over the better ones (as bars like to try to save money), people quit coming out because the quality isn't there, bars blame karaoke & drop it.  More & more people stay home with their karaoke systems at home.  Drunk driving laws are tougher than ever - also a large factor in karaoke (as well as bar business in general), people don't go out as much.  Gas prices are going back up, that cuts into alot of people extra spending cash just to fill their tanks, so they stay home or close to home.  Anti-smoking laws have affected MANY bars, the bigger/better bars will survive this, but I have watched several bars shut down here since our smoking ban went into effect over a year ago - people would rather stay at home where they can smoke, drink & sing in safety.  Non-spenders are NOT the cause of karaoke's fall!!!  Sorry!




Every form of entertainment eventually loses & goes by the wayside, there is nothing that can really be done about that.  As karaoke won't ever COMPLETELY die, it will never be what it once was 10 years ago.  You will have some diehard clubs - or clubs that are still packed because of it, but these clubs I can pretty much promise, will be the ones with a host that knows how to run the show, good equipment with a host that knows how to use it & plentiful selection with songs people want to sing, not just a lot of stuffing that will never be pulled out of it's jewel case.
People tried to save the 'disco' revolution as well & while there are a handful of actual 'discos' in the nation, it will never be what it once was.
When karaoke took over, dj's & live music were on the major decline - now you see them popping up again, many dj shows in where karaoke is or was.

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Gotta agree with a lot of what you say there Lonman... but i beg to differ on the anti-smoking laws... Maybe they have cause decline in some bars, but that is not evidenced in the bars I was going to in NYC, where they were usually packed with karaoke singers and non-singers alike.  Also, when the non-smoking legislation was introduced into New Zealand, I noticed no decline in bar patronage where I went.  

I must say that, while in NY, I was attending karaoke bars at least a couple of times per week... since I have been in Canada I have been once (since November, that is) and have not been back to another bar since due to the fact that my eyes stung, my clothes stank and my throat was painful, all due to cigarette smoke!  And I know many people who would go to bars IF they didn't have to put up with the smoke.  It is unfortunate that we are just a little far from Calgary to go there for karaoke as they have introduced no-smoking laws (to a point) this winter.

 The 15.00 fee makes it a private club. It may be a contrivance to get around the law, but it works. It's not illegal.  This is just another real world loophole that won't change. Let's just worry about the public venues....That's the only place we may do some good.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

  A very good question!  BOTH!  The venue should certainly advertise. However, if you're interested in growing a show and building your own following, you should too.  I advertise, including a venue listing, in the local  entertainment mag, "Steppin' Out".  Since I have a following, this adds to bleedover from show to show, guaranteeing 1) Starter singers to get the ball rolling, and 2) More singers per show, keeping my venues happy and me employed......

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

  1)  Small venue hosting really is another subject.   However, even a great host will have trouble turning a profit on the tiniesdt of venues. There simply isn't enough room for enough customers to make it pay.  The good news is that once you get to a venue that can hold more than 50, AND sells something besides 1.oo beers, you CAN make it pay.   A small venue can also be a benefit to a host because it makes karaoke a more intimate experience, and it's easier to build that "karaoke family" feeling.  Once this is done, you can make this THE spot for karaoke that night.  You already know how to build your own singing AND drinking regs, and minimize the cheapie problem.....there ya go.


  2)  Sorry about that. I calls 'em as I Sees 'em, and I have great respect for good hosts.  I truly don't see that many around...

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

           Sorry DBK, I can't let that slide.  Who cultivated and made the paying patrons into paying and SINGING customers enjoying a good show?  Who built a crowd of singers from within?  Um, that would be you.  On top of that, even Eric says that you have one of the BEST shows around. Gee, I'm thinking this may be attributed to GOOD HOSTING SKILLS.  There is a HUGE difference between a button pusher and a true Karaoke Host, and the shows reflect it.  You have a solid show with minimal impact by cheapies where you say it's a severe problem. You are a KARAOKE HOST.


           BTW- If you blush again I'll tell my girlfriend. You don't want to mess with the Redneck Goddess

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Being a karaoke dj myself I understand the ups and downs when it comes to a bar. I feel that the only thing you can do is collect a firm pay and go on. Like you said you are not a bar owner. You are a kj. But as kj's we know what will work and what won't in the bar scene. If anything the bar owner should have listened to you. I now have that same problem. I tend to keep the early birds there if I start at 8 versus starting at 9. Then there is another dj that comes in and works from 9-1:30 for the same amount that I do wed from 9-1. The owner wanted me to give him an extra 30 min where I told him that we are two different dj's and do things alot different. They don't seem to get that concept sometimes. I have to sit there and explain that just because one dj or kj does it one way don't mean I am going to do the same. I am a whole different ball game.