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Let me try to interject some information and translation of what Eric is trying to say, because I think it is getting lost...

Here in the South FL market, we have been seeing a vast drop in venues and hosts doing shows. The places we are relagated to are not always suited to karaoke. I believe if we look at a couple of examples, it will make it clearer what Eric is trying to say....

1) Italian restaurant (no scenes please)- This is an earlier 'family' show. They serve beer and wine, but rely on food. Many of the patrons are older or 'veteran' singers. They will come in, order a coke or water, and occuppy a table all night. Very often they will bring other singers with them that do the same, or may split an order of fries for an entire table. They may make up 5 singers in a 15 singer rotation, and a total # of partrons of 20-30. The owners look and say the karaoke singers are non spenders and look to drop the show- How would you handle that situation?

2) You have a karaoke club. Every person there has spent $15 for a lifetime membership that allows them in and to drink till 6AM 7 nights a week. Almost every person there is a 'singer'. Quite often you have nights there with 10-15 people total at the bar, and 3-5 will have water or soda, and there is no food. Again, how do you handle that?

3) Sports Bar (my venue I think)- Large crowd of singers and non singers. Food is available till 11PM. There is limited seating at tables. A group of singers come in, take a table up front, use 2 books, and order 3 waters, 2 cokes, and a beer. They sit for 2 hours and never order anything else, till they sing and go to the next show.
Do you say something there?

I don't know if it is just this area, but Karaoke singers here have a reputation of being 'coke-suckers' as one bar owner called them. Some have legitimate excuses, most do not.

In general, if you were playing a small venue, and 1/3- 1/2 of your singers were non spenders (notice I didn't say non-drinker), is there any GOOD way of handling it?

I hope this clafifies things a little.....

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Yes I can see Erics point but there will come a day like here that 75% of the karaoke singers will build their own systems and sing at home because they can drink or not smoke or not and not pay for gas.

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Karyoker:
And when that happens, it'll happen on line.

Public Karaoke is dying here and I've already warned those who are unconcerned about who is actually supporting karaoke in their public venues that it will soon happen where they are!

While the number of karaoke venues here continue to diminish here, the number of singers per venue is also diminishing!  From a little unscientific research I recently undertook, there is a bit of a resurgence of piano/keyboard players around the area!

Dave:
I appreciate you adding your 2cents.  While what you wrote is quite concise, I don't believe that what you wrote was any clearer than my posts.  Only other possibility is that I am viewed as a liar, or crybaby or.....THEY JUST CAN'T HELP BUT CONDONE/EXCUSE BAD BEHAVIOR?  OR MAYBE THEY JUST DON'T GET IT?

So, maybe some of the supposedly dumb bar owners, like the one who threw out the entertaining, but nonspending singer (which is the post that really started this furor), aren't so dumb after all?  Maybe he is a real businessman who wanted to send a loud and clear message in order to cut a problem "off at the pass" - YOU DON'T SPEND?  YOU'RE NOT WELCOME!  He didn't enter into the realm of theory (maybe he'll tell his friends, maybe some of the other customers will miss him?).  He saw no obvious, logical, compeling reason to accomodate that individual and invited him to leave. PERIOD!  I congratulate that "dumb owner" for having the huevos (mustering the courage) to make what had to have been a hard decision.  

(Dave;  Robin & I will most likely be there tomorrow.  Regards)

I guess they were victims of the hit and run drunk drivers leaving the establishments you frequent!

Just because you don't see designated drivers, doesn't mean they don't exist.  I know for a FACT that they DO exist!  And here is the problem with this thread.... you are generalising from what you have seen in your experience, and others are generalising from what they have seen in their experience.   Each is correct in their views.  I have seen the kind of people you talk about Eric, and I agree with you that  the bar management should talk to them.  It is not the KJ's responsibility to take action though, because the KJ is there to provide the service to the Bar's customers and if the management allows these people to stay, then they remain a customer.  The KJ can really only bring the matter to the bar management's attention.  

I think the management should take action in these circumstances (where the same customers REPEATEDLY come in for their karaoke entertainment but do not support the bar) as other singers who are supporting the bar will get annoyed and end up going elsewhere.  But the action they take should be done diplomatically, not in a way that creates a scene which makes the bar management/owner appear a complete a**hole, as I have seen done.  That type of action will also lead to the supporting singers leaving.  

Just picture this.  A group of new customers come into the bar because there is karaoke.  They are enjoying the night, having a few beers, singing a few songs and enjoying listening to a singer when the owner storms up to the singer, grabs the mic from his hand and tells him to get out of the bar.  The group thinks, what a jerk the owner is, get up and leave, never to return!  Wouldn't it be far better for the owner to let the guy finish his song, and then quietly speak to him about leaving?  That would be the difference between a dumb bar owner and one who cares about his business.

     1)    And again, you haven't explained to MY understanding why you care. Not a Karaoke Host, Not an owner...

      2)  I don't know what you are referring to here. Please summarize any point that you think I am avoiding.  Business plan?  Again, no concern to you.  How to minimize your problem?  Instructions given Karaoke 101....what'd I miss?


      3)  YOU may be part of some upset group, but as my cheapie problem is negligible , I've never met anyone upset with it.....


       4)   You answered your own question here.  You're going to the venue where the deadbeats don't go.  WHY do you think that is?  PROPER HOSTING.  Oh, you'll run into bars with mins that keep them away, but the insult of the min ( even though it would normally be exceeded) ends up keeping customers away, making the show minimal.

              However, your comments regarding rotation have answered a question of mine, and would allow you to enjoy the minimal shows.  Your REAL complaint is about NOT ENOUGH AIRTIME! Not enough time for you to be the star.  The problem is that with the small rotation you have described, you probably get up plenty of times.  Eric, I try to keep posts moderate, but a point has to be made.  As far as good hosts and happy customers go, a good singer who doesn't drink is more welcome then a diva or a mic hog. Check my signature- I MEAN IT!

       As far as your post regarding non-drinkers having their own place: The answer is the same as for the non-smokers, who have done unbelievable damage to the bar industry- much more than the single cheapie.  The answer is that they want to be where everyone else is, but under thier own conditions.  The single cheapie poses very little problem.  Remember the example the non-smokers used of the poor uneducated waitress (her own fault) forced to breathe second hand smoke?  She's breathing free and easy now-out on the street looking for a job- at least here in NJ.

  Those are some of your answers Eric.  You want more?  Give a valid reason other than your personal need for more airtime.  It may also help if you asked concise, specific questions.

   Eric,  I apologize for the tone of this post, as I'm generally more relaxed and laid back, and don't like personalized negative posts.  However, I get the feeling that you are accusing me personally of helping to cause what seems to be a problem for you.  This can't be the case, since this peeve of yours doesn't have an impact  ( like 1 in 50 people) at my shows.  The only thing I can suggest is that you find a host and venue that satisfies you....Or show a copy of karaoke 101 to your current host.  If he doesn't tell you to stuff it, he may make some positive changes...

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

AGAIN, I do not condone or excuse anything - yes I was giving possibilities - because they do happen & do exisit in my shows.  However - once again - IT IS NOT MY JOB TO POLICE WHAT PEOPLE SPEND OR DO NOT SPEND!  It is entirely the bars responsibility NOT the kj's!  So until the bar tells me not to allow someone to sing due to lack of spending, everyone is treated the same!  And in the 14 years i've been running karaoke, it has yet to happen or even been brought up!

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Murrlyn

Thank you for your interesting post.  I have a few responses.
    1.  You PAINTED a picture of how the singer in that original post was asked to leave.  The actual details were never included in the original post.  AND I WILL SIMPLY SAY IT IS UNFAIR OF YOU TO THEORIZE ABOUT WHAT AND HOW IT HAPPENED!  AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM TRYING TO GET OTHERS TO STOP DOING!!!
    2.  Up til now, in any post you made on this subject you've shown no sympathy for the owner.
    3.  My point about "designated drivers"  was very subtle.  Some people on this forum minimized everything I said as if it were inconsequential or non-existent simply because they couldn't relate to it.  One of their responses/excuses for people not drinking is because they are a "designated driver".  Since in my circles they don't seem to exist (BUT OF COURSE THEY DO ELSEWHERE), I minimized the existence of "designated drivers" in my response hoping to make a point (AND YOUR RESPONSE SHOWS I WAS SUCCESSFUL IN THAT REGARD)
    4.  I don't really know what GOES ON ELSEWHERE.  BUT I AM NOT GENERALIZING about what I experience, as verified by the very same facts presented by Dave.  FURTHERMORE, I don't believe it is correct to characterize that what those who disagree with me are doing is GENERALIZING, either.  What according to you Murrlyn, did those responding to me generalize about?

What my posts have focused on is the simple question why do some EXCUSE/CONDONE, apparently all, nonspending singers?  And that has yet to be answered.

While I have given distinct and verifiable facts (anyone is welcome to visit here in Ft Lauderdale), fact that have now been confirmed by Dave, people from a distance want to justify that their locals and my locals include singers who intentionally avoid spending money to support the karaoke they so enjoy!  AND THE JUSTIFICATION - BS PIE IN THE SKY THEORIES!

  I too, have posted nothing but the facts, and have related the experiences of an owner, manager, bartender, and Karaoke Host-  YEARS of collective experiences.  Oh yes, I was was a singer for many years prior to becoming a host.  I do not espouse BS PIE IN THE SKY THEORIES, only discuss widespread experience.

   I actually believe that you have experienced everything that you have mentioned.  The problem is that your experience is limited, and also that YOU seem to be in the very small minority regarding your opinions on this subject. This would indicate that MANY OTHERS with much professional experience of their own seem to share my belief that this "problem" IS negligible.   In the face of the combined years and geographical diversity of the experiences of all these people, you might want to re-consider the importance of your personal opinion to the professional multitudes, relax, have several drinks ( to support your venue of course,  and sing when it's your turn.  You will change nothing, because there's really nothing worth changing.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Joe,

You can go out into "leftfield"  as much as you want.  I really don't have to justify my concern about nonspending singers.  I'm more curious why you're not concerned?  Anyway...just to satisfy a meaningless curiosity,  when I joined this forum I let everyone know (and you quoted me in your post) that when I retire in the next five years I will make my extra bucks kj'ing and I intend to open a Karaoke bar.  I need to understand everything about running a business that is centered around karaoke (if it's still around)!  And what I learned on this subject from what IMHO is thankfully just a minority view has been very revealing!
 
For your information, I don't sing that much when I am out.  Since last fall, I injured my vocal chords seriously and now sing 3-4 songs a night, one song at a time, (even with our small rotations and two songs per singer).  Some nights I don't sing at all.

The fact about the injury to my vocal chords was posted previously as part of this topic.  It was also made known that I still attended the karaoke venues while incapable of singing.  Why? To support the karoake show, financially!   All of this was made known in previous threads.  So what is your PSYCHO BABBLE regarding my need to be a star???  The ones who need to be a star are the ones posting herein that admit they don't care a hoot about the karaoke venue, or their fellow singers BUT ARE RATHER WAITING FOR THEIR MOMENT IN THE SUN!

And, no Joe, you didn't accept what I posted as fact.  You said such small venues shouldn't have karaoke, the nonspenders attract spenders, and on and on.  Few if any facts were provided by you, they were opinions and hypotheticals.  I gave you exact financial figures using numbers based upon attendance (now confirmed by DBK1099) and you gave me all the reasons those numbers where wrong, including references to non-existent, paying customers.  You knew from afar that everything I said couldn't possibly be.  

So, NOW, if you really understood my post, OR PERHAPS DBK1099's post, you'd  stop and reflect upon all that you have already said, and then you might understand my disgust with nonspending singers and the consequences they will surely cause locally for karaoke.  And people excusing won't make it better and others like Dbk1099 are quite aware of what's happening.  It's just seems no one knows what to do about it, but we're not excusing it.  So, one more time, why is it that you EXCUSE/CONDONE nonspending singers, Joe?

What would be nice is suggestions about what can/should be done regarding this problem (that you don't get)

PS And why not tell DjDawg that he needn't be concerned, even though he was concerned enough to share that info with us?

PPS People are people.  I can't understand why So Fl has all of the nonspending Karaoke singers, and your vast experience has not revealed any to you?

    ahhh, that's better.  A calm voice and some actual information.   I was never made aware of much that you have said, such as the rental clubs.  In this particular case, the club has requested a 15.00 fee and receved it. Their conditions have been filled, and no one has a right to complain.


  1)  Yes, this seems to be a very regional problem.  I haven't seen it in Northeastern or Central Florida, or from there up through the coastal states to New Hampshire.  I do not have personal experience to fall back on for the mid and left coast states, but I haven't heard of it being that large of a percentage elsewhere.  As far as the water drinkers taking up a booth or table, The venues seem to find ways to take care of this themselves. Usually, if the space is needed, they ask the non-drinker to move. Again, this is not the responsibility of the host.  As for a good way to solve the problem in a venue, PLEASE. I'M BEGGIN'  YA!  Read Karaoke 101, and add any improvements desired....

  And Disc, I thank you for the clarificatrions, as I had absolutely NONE of this info before...Very helpful..

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

JOE I DON'T KNOW IF YOU READ MY PREVIOUS POST, BUT TRY THIS ONE ON



Up til now the biggest noise has come from those who don't accept that there's a problem.  Those who agree have simply stated their opinion that singers need to spend money.  Dave has asked for suggestion, DjDawg would I'm sure appreciate hearing ideas about dealing with his nonspenders.  OR DO WE WAIT UNTIL THE OWNER DOES SOMETHING AND THEN POST IT UNDER A "DUMB OWNER" THREAD WHEN HE DOES?????   Ahhhh back to square one!!!!

   1)  Not in this thread, and I don't spend my life going back over your posts. I never saw it.

   2) & 3) My apologies for the misunderstanding, but see #1

   4)  I do now, since disc finally gave specific info that you were either unwilling or incapable  of conveying.   As for incorrect info, I have conveyed the facts as they are in the majority of venues.  I now know, thanks again to disc, that your area is an anomaly.

    5)  Please show a quote of mine that says " I excuse/condone non-spending singers"   I don't do either.  I DON'T CARE ABOUT THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE NEGLIGIBLE AT MY SHOWS.  Not excuse. Not condone. DON'T CARE.

     6)  Karaoke 101.   AGAIN. If these concepts are too hard for you, you may wish tio reconsider being a host. As a matter of fact, a good host requires a certain type of personality.  If you post what you do even given the time to think, as opposed to a conversation, you will be hard-pressed to handle the constant interaction on the fly required by a good host....

      7)   Your perceptions and mine differ greatly here...

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Alright Joe

See my previous post.  Let's get some heads behind solving a problem many are already facing.  And you and I call it a truce!

BTW- Regarding this entire topic.  If the situation were as bad as Eric describes in the MAJORITY of venues. karaoke wouldn't be as popular as it is, and this forum wouldn't have so many members...

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

I am describing not what I AM EXPERIENCING BUT WHAT IS GOING ON IN FORT LAUDERDALE.  I KNOW WHAT KARAOKE WAS LIKE HERE 15 YEARS AGO.  NOT MUCH LEFT OF IT.  

AGAIN, THIS IS FT LAUDERDALE!  SO WHAT IS IN STORE FOR YOUR TOWN?

    1)  Eric, try doing some reading yourself.  I have acknowledged, thanks to Disc's clear explaination, which you had not given, that your problem exists, and is severe.
in your area.  Why are you rehashing?


     2)  You keep asking the same question, and I keep answering it, but I'll repost just for you:
  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------      
  1)  Bring in singers who drink.  NO CONTESTS, don't focus on the best singers and divas.  These "serious" singers keep their drinking to a minimum to maintain their "fantastic" level of performance.   Focus on making new regular singers out of the general bar crowd-focus on the FUN factor.   I get huge groups of good drinkin' singers as regulars this way.  They have a blast, and tell their friends.


  2)  Make sure that the NON-SINGERS are having as much fun as the singers.  This is done through good mic work, spending a lot of time mingling and interacting, and making them feel like part of the action. If they get comfortable enough with you, they too may sing.  ALWAYS have at least one large monitor facing the crowd so they can follow along and see how easy it is...  This is why I only call myself a Karaoke HOST, not a KJ.  I HOST the show for the entire venue, not just the singers... This keeps the non-singing drinkers coming back.


    BTW- there is no division between singer and non-singer as patrons.  Singers often bring in non-singing friends, and non-singers are just people who haven't tried it yet........

         .....and I'm sorry to have to say it, but - 101, common sense.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Can you read it, Eric?  Can you comprehend it? Do you understand that this is how it's done?  If you want to be a successful host, you should. If you ask the same question again, I will have to assume you are just baiting....

   You know, looking back, I see that you SAID you have no interest in Karaoke 101. Now I read that you wish to become a host.  If you have no interest in learning HOW to host, then how do you expect to be good at it?  You see, Eric, hosting is MY passion.  I think that mediocre hosting is more of a problem to karaoke as a whole that that non-drinker. Crappy hosting is why people are buying those home machines and staying there.  Mediocre hosting leaves such a bad impression and memory that some owners won't take the chance of hiring another, possibly better host.  So, Eric, if you really are interested in hosting, and not just stirring the pot, please take the time to learn how to do it properly, or don't bother.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Actually, I am guessing that there are a few people who simply don't want to deal with you on this issue, feeling that you are unreasonably upset about it. I know that is my position.

If the kj is getting paid $200 & only attracting 10-14 singers in an evening & the bar is only making $45 over the cost, then I would say the KJ is very overpaid for his services or the bar needs to pony up & advertise.  as the bar has other problems it would seem.

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I wouldn't blame that on non spenders.  Karaoke is dying for other reasons, non spenders may be a very miniscule part of it.

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Eric, my last post was submitted before I read your request for a truce.  I'm good with that.

  The problems to be solved can be with proper hosting techniques.  Not just mine. Others do it differently.  The exception to this are the small rental halls in your area. From what Disc says, once they pay the fifteen bucks, they've as much right there as anyone per the clubs' own policy.  Thus, the only places to consentrate on ore the public venues.


   Whereas a bar min might be found insulting by many, a table or booth min is standard in many places, karaoke or not. In this case the venue can be of help.

    It is, however, the host that controls the show. He CAN subtly make some feel moe welcome than others via the way he interacts.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."