Karaoke Forums

Our Job Is Not To Bring The People In, Our Job Is To Keep Them There When They Get There

Ha, this is right up my alley.  I've been away from the board for awhile, but this post hit me square in the &%$%&*($!  This same thing just happened to me, I have to say the same thing..."stupid bar owner"  Here's the scoop.  So my 1st real karaoke bar gig turned out great...we were there for over 3mths, every Thursday, was getting better every week.  I also did a couple of Fridays on a last min call, New Years Eve too.  All was going pretty good.  Time was 9-1, which was bad.  Just about the time it got going good.....we're done, everyone left.  Can't out smart the bar owner though, they know it all.  So I played after, every week, not a lot..but 20,30,40 minutes..every week, depending on the crowd.  Did I ask for more $...NO.  It all works out in the end.  A couple of Fridays I worked, it was dead, so I took my Thursday night rate because it was dead and no-one knew I was going to be there.  1st problem) Well the bar is out in the boondocks, to say the least.  The only advertisment is locals and the paper, well in the paper it would say....DJ, 9-1.  So I complained twice, to get more karaoke singers, they need to know we've got karaoke here.  I'll get back to that.  2nd problem)  We had an issue with a drunk there, I let it go on too long, finally got out of control and I told the waitress to take care of him, that turned out to be a kick in the ballz as well.  He was a important drunk I find out.  The story the bar owner got..wasn't what happened..not even close.  3rd problem) I got screwed on $ one night & I wasn't happy about it.  The story is this...we were reliable, like 2 weeks prior, I had knee surgery on Wed, guess where I was on Thurs....in the bar, like I said I would be.  The next week we had a huge ice/snow storm, but I was there..on time, our vehicle broke down on the way there one week...we still got there and did the show, with no issues.  The thing is....even after all the bs, it was getting better every week and she was making money.  Fast forward to the ice storm night.  I get the paper that night, it says DJ/Thursday 9-1..same as always twice I was told it was going to get fixed.....so say DJ & Karaoke with my name..simple request.  Then I see Fri/Sat DJ & Karaoke w "so & so"...hmmmmmmm, so I wasn't very happy.  Not becuase of so & so or their fri/sat gig, but because mine still wasn't fixed after 3 months and his was right there..the very 1st time.  Anyway, we get to the bar that night...set up, it's dead....the owner decides after calling 6 times to close early, like 11 pm, I say fine, we'll stay till then......waitress comes up...she'll give you $40 for show up time.  I about came unglued..I said NO, I'm not taking it for that, call her back.  She comes back, we'll she's NOT happy about it...I don't care I say......I'll take less, fine, but not $40!  So gets to close down time..11pm....pack up and go up to the counter..all that is in the register is $40 (miraciously).  I'm instant pissed, but take the money and leave.  I call her the next day and she is all talking how I should be happy about getting the $40 for 1hr's worth of work and I treat her customers bad, etc.  The drunk issuse came up and we were threating her 'good' customer and he would never do anything like I said he did...all bs, I brought up the paper thing, that got turned into it wasn't her fault and she can bring in anyone she wants into her bar.  100% missed the point of the whole conversation.  When we get to the money situation again, I voice my displeasure and it came down to the take it or leave it.  I said we won't do it for that again.  Talk to her the next day, now she wants to go with this other guy that is some friend of her husbands thurs/fri/sat.  UNREAL...after 3 months of getting better every week......errrrrrr!  It was a great learning expierence though, no doubt.  So, I'm in the market again for a consistant bar gig, got a few on the horizon, but nothing nailed down.  It's private parties for the time being..oh & remodeling...   Pheeeeeeew, I'm done!  MrD

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[highlight=midnightblue]MrD - KJ/DJ Specialist
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  This has been covered before.   Here's how it's done for YOUR scenario ( I say YOUR because the type of singers I bring in drink)

   1)  Bring in singers who drink.  NO CONTESTS, don't focus on the best singers and divas.  These "serious" singers keep their drinking to a minimum to maintain their "fantastic" level of performance.   Focus on making new regular singers out of the general bar crowd-focus on the FUN factor.   I get huge groups of good drinkin' singers as regulars this way.  They have a blast, and tell their friends.


   2)  Make sure that the NON-SINGERS are having as much fun as the singers.  This is done through good mic work, spending a lot of time mingling and interacting, and making them feel like part of the action. If they get comfortable enough with you, they too may sing.  ALWAYS have at least one large monitor facing the crowd so they can follow along and see how easy it is...  This is why I only call myself a Karaoke HOST, not a KJ.  I HOST the show for the entire venue, not just the singers... This keeps the non-singing drinkers coming back.


     BTW- there is no division between singer and non-singer as patrons.  Singers often bring in non-singing friends, and non-singers are just people who haven't tried it yet........

          .....and I'm sorry to have to say it, but - 101, common sense.


As for this:

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And how does that happen, Joe, when non-spending, unaccompanied, Karaoke singers are welcomed and excuses are made for them by too many (not everyone) on this forum, including people who have managed bars?  
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  I don't know about you (though I know it's one your pet peeves), but the percentage of singers at my shows like this is negligible, and of no importance.  If you have a HUGE percentage of these taking all the seats at your venue, please read the instructions above.


   Aside to Karaokegod2000:   You ARE supposed to keep them longer. That DOES help the sales-SOMEWHAT.  But, speaking now not as a Kaeaoke Host, but as ex bar management:  If my bar is normally 1/4 full and doesn't improve while you are there, you're losing me money- even if that 1/4 stay all night.   A bar is a business. If what you do doen't add enough to the tally, then you are a liability, not an asset.

  The phrase "My JOB is..." doesn't apply.  As a host, you are an independant business selling your services to a venue.  To make your business successful, you must offer the best services that you can. Which sounds better when trying to land a gig? " I have several people who follow me to each of my venues. They will start the ball rolling, and add some immediate income.  Let's give it six weeks and see if we can build a good night"  or  "I'll keep your current customers happy, but that's all I offer If you want more customers it's up to you."?


  This is not a JOB. You are not an EMPLOYEE.  You are the owner of your own business.  EVERYTHING is your responsibility.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Joe,

You have finally acknowledged that there maybe a problem elsewhere (WHICH DOESN'T EXIST IN YOUR WORLD) with non-spending singers.  So I guess it's just me and djdawg who have noticed this "poor" behavior?



And, Joe, I am not concerned about KJ101, I am a singer.

As a businessman I am concerned with BUS101.  I'm concerned with business planning and the impementation of said plans.  Your commentary reflected a goal and not a business plan.  You might as well add to your goals only attract customers who spend A LOT OF MONEY!   What you offered is NOT A PLAN; a plan needs to be more substantive than a statment that "you're a HOST" and you make sure that people have "fun".

As to whose responsibility is it to attract those customers?  Of course, most venues want the KJ to bring in a crowd.  And that's clear because most venues make no effort of their own to promote their live entertainment, even though a bar will heavily promote SPORTING EVENTS!   But when it comes to live entertainment:
 - They don't do any paid advertising
 - They don't put up banners, signs or anything outside to let passerbys know there's entertainment inside
 - They rarely put up any, much less, prominent signs inside to promote the live entertainment

KJ's are entertainment like a singer/guitar player,  or singer/keyboard player or texas hold 'em  - but a KJ is the first one (other than a band) that is expected to have a following.  And that following ALONE, some will say, is suppose to justify hiring them!  RUBBISH!  If that expectation were 100% realistic (there are some bands and kj's that are a draw) every band and Kj would hold an auction and hire themselves out to the highest bidder.  

I've run into one Kj who if asked by a venue manager about his "following",
responds with the question of how much promoting does the venue plans to do?  If it's inadequate, he declines the job. Good Advice!

PS: Joe, where I come from the TOTAL attendance during a karaoke show is typically no larger than 40-50 people, often less than 30.  FOR THE BENEFIT OF THIS ENTIRE FORUM, since you've never faced the problem of non-spenders as a KJ or bar manager, could you please tell us how you've been successful in avoiding the problem AND SEEMINGLY ATTRACT ONLY SINGERS THAT SPEND MONEY.  Because where I go,  it is commone for 3-4 singers out of a total of 15 not to spend money.  To me, that's a SIGNIFICANT number.  With the input from your knowledge and experience, I imagine that no karaoke show will ever have to deal with non-spending singers again!

Reply to Eric, with whom I've debated the subject of non-spending singers before:
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Quote:

   
PS: Joe, where I come from the TOTAL attendance during a karaoke show is typically no larger than 40-50 people, often less than 30.  FOR THE BENEFIT OF THIS ENTIRE FORUM, since you've never faced the problem of non-spenders as a KJ or bar manager, could you please tell us how you've been successful in avoiding the problem AND SEEMINGLY ATTRACT ONLY SINGERS THAT SPEND MONEY.  Because where I go,  it is commone for 3-4 singers out of a total of 15 not to spend money.  To me, that's a SIGNIFICANT number.  With the input from your knowledge and experience, I imagine that no karaoke show will ever have to deal with non-spending singers again!

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  1)  You said you were a singer, and not concerned with Karaoke 101. You are not an owner, as you would have said something by now.  This makes me wonder why you are bothered by the problem at all- not your concern, just sing...

       Now, addressing the statement above:  I never said that I don't run into the problem, I said it was negligible for me.  You were discussing NON-ACCOMPANIED non-drinkering singers.  Single seaters. Not important in terms of room, and if they sing well they entertain the non-singers- helping to generate sales from others.

      You mention that the TOTAL attendance ( singers AND non-singers) is often under 30.  If the bar CAPACITY is under 50, it cannot hold enough to warrant paying enough for a decent host, which may be part of the problem. If the CAPACITY of the place is well over this, what you are describing is an unsuccessful show.  If it is to improve, and bring in PAYING customers, than the host MUST be concerned with karaoke 101. ( See referenced post).  THAT'S the "how", Eric.  

        You are correct in that I posted goals, but I posted INSTRUCTIONS as well.  As for a business plan, I have one, but since you are neither a host or an owner, I see need to share it.

       As for tossing or penalizing the cheapies ( which you've mentioned in other threads):  Bad press for the bar (especially if they embellish), and you don't know how many PAYING customers are friends of theirs, or come to here them sing.....One other thing: No special treatment for the cheapie divas. If they come in late or want to leave early it's their problem. If they don't get up, they don't.  Focus a bit more personality on OTHERS.  They may may get discouraged with the lack of "star status" on their own and drift away.  The Karaoke 101 post mostly covers it.......

        Eric, I know you are passionate about this subject, and on the face of it I am in agreement with you.  Ideally, if they don't want to spend they should get their entertainment at home.  However, the world isn't ideal, and there is too much cause and effect out there. I've seen it, experienced it, been a part of it. Let it be.  You are a singer out for a good time. Just enjoy it.  The only issue you may have with it is that they may be taking up air time you think should go to you.  However, with the small rotations you describe I don't think you have any real problem there either...


     There will always be cheapies out there, despite anything I, or those much smarter than I, can do. The only thing that can be done is to negate them with proper hosting skills.

So relax, and enjoy.......  ( Or become a host or owner and come up with someting better for your venue  )

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" Disc based and loving it..."

Joe

I AM passionate about the subject, and would be so even if my interest were just those of a singer and not a future kJ and future owner of a karaoke bar.

Again, you haven't explained to my understanding, why you are supportive of  singers who don't support the venue that pays for their singing?  The money I spend is determinable - consistent week in and weekout.  You, on the other hand, hypothesis about how much money non-spending singers might/do produce!

Now I never suggested that I know what to do with singers like that.  I only asked WHY WHY WHY there are those (thankfully a minority on this forum) who condone and even make excuses for such poor behavior?  PERIOD  

You have given me your theories why you should overlook such behavior:  maybe those singers bring in friends? Maybe they'll give the location a bad rep if you ask them to leave? Maybe they're entertaining?  So, in effect, you generalize.  You intentionally have avoided until this last post, the reality I experience and have shared with you.  I guess you do so in order to continue condoning rather than to address what to do about non-contributing tightwads.
 
And consider this:  Maybe I have friends and maybe I will give the venue a bad rep as a location for karaoke because it allows dead wood to detract from paying folks having the best possible experience?  I am known all over town in karaoke cirlces and I could do just that.  And I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE  in the area who is TICKED OFF by this small but very selfish group.

Now we meet DjDawg who references a venue at which the singers are predominantly tightwads and do not carry their fair share!  It appears that "my" 3-4 nonpaying singers maybe peanuts compared to some of what he has experienced?

Why you have suggested that this type of problem reflects upon the quality of the host, I don't know . I believe that the problem is not with the quality of the hosts, but you can take that up with DjDawg.   KJ's can't make people become tightwads.

The problem is selfish singers who think they are entitled to their "moment in the sun" and that everyone else should (I guess) reward their performance by paying their way.  This even includes a husband and wife in my area that used to host karaoke.  Maybe since they didn't pay to sing at their own show they figure they can sing for free elsewhere?

I have started to look for and attend a few other venues where these deadbeats don't typically show up.  Most of them aren't even entertaining IMHO!  And to me nonpaying singers impact MY perception of what is a fair rotation as much as any other poorly designed approach to accomodating/rotating singers!  And unless I really like the venue (food, service, etc.), I don't spend nearly so much as I used to
at karaoke venues!

I have these types of singers too, but they aren't so much a problem because they usually bring people with them that are more than spending their fair share & if that 1 non-spending singer wasn't there, neither would these other SPENDING people.  There are also other reasons someone might not drink - recovering alcoholic?  Designated driver?  Health reasons?  I won't question why someone is not drinking.  If it becomes a problem in itself where there are 50 people in the bar & nothing coming in the till, then yes I might question it, however i've never seen a situation even remotely resembling that scenerio.  
But again, it's not my job to determine if a customer is buying something or not - that is up to the bar, I am there to facilitate karaoke & if a non-spender is singing, I will allow it until the bar tells me otherwise.
I am on another forum & someone said if you aren't buying at least 1 drink an hour, you shouldn't be there - that is crap in itself.  When I go out, I buy MAYBE 2 mixed drinks & may stay from open of the show to close.  My tabs rarely go over $10 as I don't drink alot (anymore), but I make sure to take care of the staff & tip well.  But the people that I bring in with me, more than makes up for my lack of spending.

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Again

I am asking, simply, why someone would condone or make excuses for non spenders?   I have constantly referenced what the reality is by me, and that's all I know.  I know nothing about your experiences and wouldn't presume to.  I see the same people showing up, taking up space and buying, virtually, nothing!

The place I attended last night had 12 patron/singers in total.

The place I attended prior to that, on Thurday, had twenty-five patrons and 6 singers!

ALL PLACES I ATTEND SERVE FOOD, EXCEPT FOR THE KARAOKE MEMBERSHIP BAR!
So what did you want to explain to me about recovering alcoholics, designated drivers, etc?

PS.  If recovering alcoholics and those with a medical condition are by themselves, can they not find at a restaurant in which to do enjoy Karaoke?  Then, IF THEY REALLY DIDN'T MIND SPENDING MONEY THEY CAN!

Well up until recently, our bar didn't serve food after the restaurant closed at 9.  We started at 9 - after 9, no food option (except for vending machine chips which did get purchased regularly).  Now they offer basic microwave foods for pay.  So before that there was no other option.  But I don't see why someone would need to be forced to buy food either.  I know I always eat a real dinner before I go out & how do I know they didn't eat dinner there before I got there - thustly spending money.  
Unless it becomes a problem, I don't/won't treat it as such, because it's not my job to watch what people spend, it's the bars - period!
No more excuses - bottom line, if they are bringing people in with them that are spending or groups come in to meet up with or listen to one person & they are spending - who cares.  If the non spender isn't bringing anyone in & nobody likes them, then the bar should get off their butt & bounce the person!

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and maybe the bar should?

That's the point.  Why make excuses for non-spenders.  The "major" thread on this subject began with the story of a bar owner who bounced a nonspending singer.  Because the singer was sooo entertaining the KJ initiating the post and some following posts thought that the owner was wrong in dislodging that person.  

So, I wondered outloud, why EXCUSE or CONDONE the actions of UNACCOMPANIED people who come to enjoy karaoke but avoid spending money?

And the reality is that most on this forum don't excuse it.  I just don't understand those who do?

But what would it matter if people were coming specifically to hear that non-spending singer?  If he wasn't there, then the others wouldn't be spending their money there either!  Now again, if that non spender wasn't a good singer AND people are not coming in (or worse LEAVING) because of him, then yes - get him out of the bar.  But I have seen & actually have some people that fit the first scenerio & the bar would be stupid to boot them out because they are bringing people in that ARE spending.

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As a dart league rep, I would have pulled teams out of a bar that insisted that all my members imbibed or got drunk to participate in the leagues. And believe me it has been argued at league meetings. As a Kj I was always aware of what the Z tape was at closing and what tips were like. A bars profit depends on how many people are sitting at the bar listening to the band or karaoke singers not whether the band is drinking or whether the karaoke singers are drinking or not. And as a KJ if the owner kicked one of my singers out for not drinking I would pack up at that moment.. We have taken bars that were almost dead because of a bad reputation and brought in a more mellow crowd and got them in the black again. I would much rather have 200 people drinking 2 or 3 drinks than 30 getting ***Y*Y&*(& I have sang in bars all over the world and half of them sober. And I was welcome in every one of them. How many here have sang in lounges sober and got hugged by the cocktail waitress on the way out? This old man did...

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I agree with you 100% Karyoker about the dart league.

Most here want  want to apply  rules to every little bar in the world. That doesnt fly nor does it fly in  50 states in this country.. Each situation should be controlled by a local or grassroots and not by federal intervention or general consensus.  The current  presidential race is being determined by which crooked attorney can raise the first billion dollars. I am so tired of laws and regulations that reduce the middle class and put more control in local or feds hands..

What this has to do with sober singers I dont have a clue but I'm having fun...

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Oh, please!  What if the non-spending karaoke singer is the King of Siam?  

OR what if the non spending SINGERS jump around from show to show to maximize their turns at singing  AND SPEND NO MONEY ANYWHERE?

Long live the King!  I think my bar would have a problem if I didn't allow a real 'king' up on stage.



And how would you HONESTLY know if they were bar hopping?  They come in to sing a song & sign up, do you not allow them to sing until they sit down (if a seat is available) & double check that they purchase something?  Not even going to go into rotation policy, that's already done to death in another thread.  I'm sure there are those that do do that - but again, it's not my job to police what people spend - it's the bars, bottom line!

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As a poster i have never requoted self

If you dont comprehend this then then there is nothing more I can add to this thread

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well, and that's where the door fee works and get vouchers/tokens/tickets to buy drinks and food...

this way EVERYONE will spend at least the money for the door fee... if you buy a couple of beers/drinks, or a hamburger or whatever, you get your money back in that form... so the cost isn't any different. But it DOES put a stop to the water/soda sippers.

HOW WOULD DUMB OLE ME KNOW THAT SOMEONE (WHO IS SPENDING LITTLE OR NO MONEY) IS ALSO VENUE HOPPING?

well let's see
  1. the THREE HOUR show that I most consistently attend starts at 7:30 and a diehard karaoke singer TYPICALLY shows up at 9:30 (which is enough time to get at least one turn in the rotation)
  2. the diehard karaoke singer shows up late and tells everyone how busy it is at SO AND SO'S SHOW
  3. once n a while I'm at SO AND SO'S Show and the diehard singer is usually there early and leaves early.  A late appearance at a second (or even third show) is not uncommon for that person.  Which can easily be done on a weekend night!
  4.  I say good evening to the diehard karaoke singer and inquire how come they've arrived so late
  ANSWER - "I was at SO AND SO'S SHOW?"
  5.  Other people have noticed what's going on and have pointed out the same to me, including comments about their spending habits!

SO.... UNLIKE YOU, I'M [u]NOT [/u]WORKING WITH THEORIES like:
   1. maybe the non-spending singer has people who come to hear him sing?
WHERE I GO THERE'S NO SUCH ANIMAL
   2. maybe the non-spending singer is a designated driver?
I'VE ALWAYS LIMITED MY "CRITICISM" TO [b]UNACCOMPANIED[/b] INDIVIDUALS.  BTW in all of the places I REGULARLY frequent I've yet to come across a Designated Driver.  Of course I don't go to SINGLES/PICKUP places, and if the companion or spouse of someone who is drinking performs that role I'm not aware of it. I GUESS, CONSIDERING THAT I HAVEN'T RUN INTO A DESIGNATED DRIVER SINCE I WAS SINGLE AND HANGING OUT  === THEY NO LONGER EXIST (RIP)!!!
   3.  maybe the non-spender is part of a group?
I KEEP STRESSING THAT I AM REFERRING TO UNACCOMPANIED non-spenders.  And in the venues I frequent I know the regulars and I know who comes with whom.
   4.  maybe the non-spender has some other justification for avoiding alcohol?  KEEP READING and you'll learn that the types of venues I frequent don't require people to purchase alcohol in order to spend money!!!!

NOW, WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW HOW I KNOW WHO IS NOT SPENDING ANY MONEY (at the smaller venues I most commonly attend)?  Or are you getting the picture?  I don't frequent "clubs" with hundreds in attendance on a Saturday night.  Where do I go?  A sports bar, an Italian Restaurant, a coffee house, and the like.  You can take a headcount of those in attendance in about 8 seconds!


BUT LET'S FORGET MY EXPERIENCE.  HOW ABOUT DJDAWG'S OBSERVATIONS?
(WHY NOT CHALLENGE HIM ON THE VALIDITY OF HIS OBSERVATION?)  
[quote]Per DJDawg in a post of March 5th:
I don't mean to be opening up a can of worms here but at least in MY area - not sure about yours - the karaoke faithful sometimes...sometimes mind you...have a reputation of not drinking alot.  (i.e. take up space and not a lot of $ in the register at the end of the night)   In many cases the non singing crowd buy the most liquor of anyone. [/quote]

And I've been wondering, since the previous comment was "slipped" into a thread about "Bar Games", how much DjDawg is bothered by his under-spending singers?

Those of you who condone/excuse (as LONMAN has) nonspending karaoke singers have offered nothing more than theories and speculation as justifications:  [i]Maybe 'this' and maybe 'that'?"  [/i]
So, my question still remains unanswered since no response, as of yet, has been built UPON FACTS!.

ME? I'm working on pure facts.  NO THEORIES, NO SPECULATON.  
And is there really any logical reason that anyone can find to condone such action?

Based upon the input I now have from DjDawg, I must believe other KJ's are aware of such circumstance.  Therefore, I have to believe that anyone who strongly excuses/condones the problem is INTENTIONALLY "BURYING THEIR HEADS IN THE SAND".  I'm just trying to understand WHY?

So, again.  WHY ARE THERE SOME OF YOU THAT CONDONE/EXCUSE THE POOR BEHAVIOUR OF UNACCOMPANIED KARAOKE SINGERS WHO ARE KNOWN TO SPEND NO MONEY (and you must know who SOME of them are if you been working the same place for any length of time)?
Joe? Lonman?

I guess if you have 3 people sitting at a bar listening to 30 drunks trying to sing it might make a little sense. If you have 300 or 400 people left over  from a Kodac christmas party it is ludicrous.

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