Karaoke Forums

Hi  :wave: ,

New to the forum.  

I've been singing Karaoke since the early 90s.  I've had an offer from a friend of mine who would like to bring Karaoke into their restaurant/bar and was offering me a job (suppose they think I'd be good at it).  I think I would actually enjoy it.  

Couple of questions, if you don't mind:

Equipment: What do you suggest?  I was thinking of starting out with a vocopro sound duo-II or the Club 3800.  Is the Club 3800 or even the 6800 worth the $ difference?  Any other options? WDYT?

Music: If I do this, I'd be looking to build the music library fairly cheaply and quickly.  I've heard some crappy brand cdgs over the years.  I'm looking for cheap good quality music. What do you recommend?

KJ:  Just curious, I know this is a loaded question.  What does a KJ make per hour?  I know there's probably a low and a high.  

Any other things I should know about to talk me into or out of this???  

All replies are greatly appreciated!

Too bad you aren't in Cincinnati area -- I have a complete pro setup with a 450-disk 5000 unique song library, and no time to do gigs.

I would recommend, as most here will, to stay away from the karaoke machines and go with a live-sound mixer and separate speakers. The sound will be better, and it will make your investment more likely to survive. Since you are going to be investing thousands in a karaoke library, it doesn't make sense to have cheesy sound and save a couple hundred on gear. Also, pro-quality mics are important in my opinion -- they make people sound better and people like to sound good.

From what I hear, the real money is in weddings and private parties. If you have any interest in going after those, you will need a big PA to fill the typical room you are going to see in that situation. A live-sound setup can integrate with that nicely so that you can add it later with a minimum of cost.

Take this with a grain of salt -- I am not a working KJ. But I have now been hanging around the scene for a while, and what I say matches with what I see in the hundreds of KJs I have scene -- and of course what I have learned here.

Firstly I would say stay away from Vocopro anything.

KJs as a rule don't make much.  I try to charge about 30 dollars an hour but I figure my break even point is $65.00 with the price of gas, wear and tear, all the time you don't get paid for revamping books, set up and tear down etc.  Private partys are more of course, that's where you make money.

In you situation I might see if you friend will buy the system and just hire you to run it.  You might hate being a KJ,

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Okay, who took my pants?

It's actually work.  Treat it as such.  It can be rewarding - fun - but remember it IS a job!  LEARN ANY EQUIPMENT you happen to get/use.  Know what every knob, button, dial does.  Rotations are a big key, there are a couple ways to do it, pick 1 & BE CONSISTENT.  Don't take bribes to bump/move people.  Customers always have family members dying during a show & will need to get up as quick as possible - don't fall for it.



Stay away from VocoPro.  Overpriced & not the greatest in reliability.  What is the budget you have for the PA alone?  



You get what you pay for.  Crappy sounding quality is quick & cheap.  You want better quality, you will need to pay for it.  I personally would use the Sound CHoice Foundations & Bricks, pick up a couple Pop Hits Monthly Millenium sets (for current stuff from 2000-2006, the Dangerous set & maybe some monthly series for some current hot hits.



Here most kj's (not bringing any equipment with them, just running the show) make from $50-75 a night on average.  If it's a company bringing in equipment, average $100-150 a night (should be higher but that's what cheesy systems & crappy selections can do to a market).  Club shows are usually cheaper, but because they run on a weekly basis (usually) will yield ok $$ per month & get it working multiple nights, it's a decent little income if you price yourself right.  Private shows you can charge 3,4,5x the amount you can get from a club, however these aren't always consistant to rely on for steady work.



Figure a decent starting budget of about $5000 for everything - PA/discs/books/slips/maybe some advertising.  THis should get you a decent sounding system, with a solid core selection that you will be expanding on from the start - discs are a constant, as are book replacements, slips, pens, maintenence of the equipment - but these constants should be able to take care of themselves once you get the show going for a while.  You'll probably want to start getting discs pretty quickly however.  Buy wisely, don't buy just to have a big selection or buy any brand because it's the cheapest.  Many online shops have a 30 second listen button.  Listen before you buy.  Try not to buy a bunch of repeats of songs you already have.  Have a request list out at your show & announce to people if we don't have it, write it down here & we will try & pick it by the next show.

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OK, so what brand of equipment would you recommmend?  Open to brands/models.  The $5K budget isn't outrageous.  I was thinking $3.5K, but ...

CDG players - not really much out there anymore that I would consider pro grade.  Look for one that has a digital key changer built in, not just a 'jog wheel' that slows/speeds up the song to change the key.  You may also consider going computerized although there are some legal questions for computer users.  If you go this route, just make sure everything you have in the computer, you have a corresponding cdg to match.  No trading or downloading songs.

Mixers - I prefer Mackie, but you could get away with a Behringer.  Look for something that has at least 4 mic channels & built in effects.  
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ ... sku=631268
$170

PA - couple ways you could go.  With a powered speaker system (amps & speakers all combined) such as
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ ... sku=602072  
$1500  This is a great starter system, isn't too large for even small clubs but will (at least a good chance) of sounding better than most systems in the area.  It's powerful enough to do outdoor gigs with no problems as well.  You would need to buy the stands - I don't think they come with the system.  However it does come with protective covers, built in casters on the sub & transporting straps to  bundle it all together once in your vehicle.
Or you could get separate amps/speakers.  Which is more to bring in, more to hook up, but overall - usually better sound quality & upgradeability factor.

I would most likely want some kind of an eq in there as well, or maybe a Sonic Maximizer.  This will help round out & fill the sound out.

Mics - people will debate this more than others - but I prefer Shure SM58's over any other.  These are nearly indestructable (i've been using the same mics since '94 & they have been abused in almost every fashion) & have a great sound - but with any mic, it may not work for everyone.  You may want to pick up a couple others like maybe the Sennheiser 835.

Misc cables for all the above - where you order, talk to a representative, on occasion they may throw the cables in depending on what you order.

Discs - You can check e-bay if you are ebay savvy, if not, stay with the internet retailers (or if you have a local karaoke/dj shop that sells at the same prices).  If I were to personally start a system, I would pick up:
Sound Choice Foundation 1 & 2
Sound Choice Brick 1-5
Pop Hits Monthly Millenium set (there are 2 if you can find them both), good compilation of music from 2000 on.
Dangerous set (11 discs - classic songs typically not found on other manus and surprisingly good quality - many kj's under rate these for some reason, most likely because of wrong words - which is found in almost ANY brand) - usually an ebay find, I got mine for $14-25 for the set - I bought a few, give them away as prizes on occasion.

The above will give you a good solid base 'core' of music that most people can find something to sing.  No it will not have everything (nor should you honestly try), but DO pick up what the people are asking for - unless it's some really obscure off the wall title that no one would normally sing.  Starting out, you may need to buy the current music as it comes out.  Some stores you can set it up where you get sent these monthly automatically.
There are other ways to go with music, but again, cheap typically reflects the quality (no not always, but as a rule).   And a bigger book is not always better.  You can buy all the cheapest garbage out there & have the biggest book in the state, but if the quality sucks on the music, it will show with the patrons.

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Thanks for the suggestions...

I was looking at building this system:

-Mackie Blem DFX 12 12x2 Mixer with Effects ($218)
-(2) Behringer EuroPower EP1500 Power 1 for Sub and 1 for for speakers ($300/ea)
-(2) Behringer EUROLIVE B215A Active Loudspeakers (450W) ($250/ea)
-(1) Behringer B1800X Pro Eurolive Professional Series Subwoofer (800W) ($300)
-(1) Furman M-8 Power Conditioner ($54)
-(1) BBE 362 Sonic Maximizer ($99)
-(1) ART HD215 High Definition Dual 15-Band Equalizer ($140)
-(1) VocoPro CDG-8800 PRO Professional Dual-Deck CD/CD+G Player ($300)
-(1) RSQ MK22 CDG ( CD+Graphic )/ DVD/ DivX (MP4) / VCD/ CD Professional Karaoke Player, Direct Access, Multiplex Function, Digital Echo Control, 13 Steps Digital Key Control ($139) (this is for non-standard CD+G that customers might bring in)

WDYT? Will this all work together.  Any wastes of money here?  Are the speakers/amp as good as the B-52s suggested?  Digital is too pricey for me.

Are there any reasonably priced good quality wireless mics?  The Shure PGX24/PG58 Handheld Wireless System goes for $380 for one mic and receiver.  I'd need two.  Are there good cheaper options, preferably one that can handle two or more mics?  

Any thoughts on the top 5 brands of CDG makers.  I know Sound Choice usually does an excellent job; but their usually the most expensive.  What are other good ones.   Chartbusters any good?

Thanks again!

I believe it will. Looks like you have given up on karaoke machines.

What do you need the second amp for if you have active speakers for your mains? The B1520 would be the passive speakers that would match your second amp.


I wonder if you can skip the MK22, as I doubt you would see a DVD or VCD brought in.

Personally I would go with the EP2500 for at least one if not both of your amps. Only $50 higher (less if you go for B-stock) and the extra power will be useful at a large venue. Also, you could power your sub with one channel and have the other for a floor monitor.

I own the same speakers/amp, and I like them. I am not much of a judge, though, as I am not a working KJ. I bought them because the reviews were good and they were definitely the most bang for the buck.

As recommended by mckyj57 I would also go with the EP2500 amp for the extra $50.00, and the B1520 Pro speaker (the active as stated would not be needed and the cost on this speaker is the same as the molded active speaker)  works really well with this amp as does the B1800X Pro sub. if you run the amp bridged mono it puts out 1300 watts and the speaker is good for 1600 watts program, you won't hurt it if you don't run the amp into clipping. I have 8 of these subs and 12 of these mains, (although my mains are the older version that they discontinued, they were advertised as 400 watt program but all 12 came through with the new 800 watt program woofers in them, I lucked out great deal with a close out price of $170.00 each shipping included.) I run all mine with the EP 2500 amps, stereo on the mains and bridged on the subs. The 2 mains and 1 sub you have picked should give good sound for the venue you stated. Not sure if the board or EQ has an active crossover built in, but I would recommend using one, although the built in crossover would still work.  
I use almost all Behringer equipment, the only problems I seem to have had are the mixers, the pre-amps and imputs have given problems on all 3 boards so far. Sent the first one back for repair and it came back with the same problem.
Lonman also has always given good advice concerning equipment you can't go wrong listening to him.

Thanks guys.  Ok, not really a technofile when it comes to terms such as bridging, clipping, etc.  OK, so I'll bump up to the 2500s (thanks).  Would adding a monitor to this improve the sound?  If so could I run the monitor on the same amp as the sub?  (I think mckyj57 suggested this)?  What do you think about the Peavey PV 12M 12 Floor Monitor?  Any other suggestions?

What do you think of the equalizer and ther sound maximizer.  Should I do both?

I'll definetely need someone to walk me through how this all gets connected together.  

I've heard no comments on my mics question nor my question on the top 5 cdg companies.  Any opinions?

It will work, I personally don't care for the sound of Behringer speakers & have heard & used both systems (not your exact outline, but fairly close) & the B-52 are a much fuller & cleaner sounding system.  
But in your outline, the tops you have are active so you would only need 1 of the power amps for the sub.  Bridge the amp for it's full power & this will be a perfect mate for the sub.  So you would save yourself $300 on the extra amp - HOWEVER, you will need an external  crossover between the sub & tops.  Would recommend the dbx 223XL.  And actually after buying all the cables for the speaker system in your outline, you are actually spending just about the same for the B52 system - which comes with all it's own speaker cable - not to mention more compact & easier to hook up which may be a factor.  Just starting out you don't want to complicate things overly.  But on the downside, the B52 system is also locked, there is no upgradeability factor - such as adding newer/better amps - this may be another consideration.

The Mackie mixer is a decent choice - this was not THEIR best mixer, it is lacking midrange eq on the mic channels.  The Behringer mixer I suggested would actually be a better choice (Yeah I know Twans).
Sonic Maximizer is fine.
Power conditioner is fine.
The Art eq - so so, if you can swing an extra $50, opt for the dbx 231.  Much better eq & better room tuning & feedback control - this is primarily what you will be using your eq for.
VocoPro dual deck - there isn't much else in karaoke players today to choose from, but this one I would pass.  CAVS supposedly has better machines these days.  I know a couple here can recommend on that brand, i've never used their cdg players.
RSQ MK22 - not really needed?  I think i've had someone bring me an off cdg type disc 2 times in 14 years.  One was a dvd, the other a vcd.  But I like the fact that you are thinking about being able to play customers discs!



I would go with Shure, but again, I don't use wireless - more fragile to drops & can walk out the door during a performance.  No one knew he was even gone, he was singing all the way to the parking lot - we did notice it was beginning to sound a little off.  Oh well, my bad on that, but where my booth is & the front doors, there was no way I could have been able to stop them - but this is another story entirely.



Sound Choice is usually a safe bet for 90%+ of the music - and NO they are not that expensive anymore as compared with other brands.  You can buy SC Spotlight discs for $17.99 which is exactly the cost of most other good brands these days.  They were at a time much more expensive, but also during a time when other brands were as well - they just held on to their higher price tag a little longer than the rest.  Now they aren't the most.
So top 5 pick
Sound Choice for most everything - excel in their specialty discs ie Headbangers, Mama discs (dirty songs), 50's-90's series discs.
Chartbuster for Country primarily - their pop/rock stuff is a little lacking alot of times.
Zoom makes great stuff in most genres, but alot of UK stuff as well that wouldn't be used much in the states.
Pop Hits Monthly for newer releases in Pop/Rock/Country
Top Hits Monthly for newer releases in Pop/Rock/Country (although much of the times they do overlap & duplicate songs in the PHM line at times & vice versa.

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It won't necessarily improve the sound.  It will allow your singers to hear an individual mix on the stage (if you use one).  If you aren't going to use a stage & just pass the mic around, you won't need a monitor at all.  
The EP2500 per channel rating will underpower the sub & you run into greater risk of blowing that speaker.  Bridging the 1500 is not hard although you would need to get a special adapter allowing banana clip to a Speakon connector to do so.  



The Maximizer is a system frequency aligner.  You don't really want to use it as a tonal control & if used correctly in live situation, you won't really even know it's there but notice if it was turned off (confusing yet  :) ).  The eq is a must in any system (IMO).  This allows for tuning the room & feedback control.



No prob.



I did!

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  1) Fee:

             Karaoke Hosts usually don't charge by the hour, but by the night at bar venues. One reason is that it keeps the owner from cutting your pay if he decides to close early. Remember, you are still locked into that venue for the night, and can't do anything else like a private event. They pay for reserving your time as well as your services...  My cheapest night averages to 65.00 / hr, and I make more elsewhere. However, I lean toward upscale bar/ restaurants and no longer do the neighborhood gin mills, which do pay less. ( How much can you charge a bar that has to sell bunches of 1 or 2 dollar beer specials just to cover your pay?)

             Either way you go, you have to take the following into account:

     Capacity of the venue x average drinks (and type of drink) per person and average meal cost x avg served.   The location and current popularity of the venue, the night of the week  (  Sunday Thru Tuesday are less popular nights than Thursday thru Saturday),  etc.....

      In other words, What kind of income the venue CAN generate can determine your fee.  You can't charge 300.oo for a no food beer bar that seats 40. At capacity, they still would lose money on you.  However, if you find a bar/restaurant that holds 100 or more in a good location.............

  Private  parties and events are another story.  They can be a gold mine.  However, these must be handled differently  and it would be a good idea to get your feet wet before you consider doing them.

  You might take Weed's suggestion regarding equipment to begin with, but if you decide you like it, you MUST get your own or you will NEVER make any money. Running house equipment makes you just part of the package....

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

It may seem contradictory but I agree with everything that Joe just said.  I don't make a whole lot as a KJ because my style lends itself to small rooms.  Which leads me to the point I was going to make which is... Nothing you can buy will make you a good KJ.  It's not about the music, it's about the party.  Be confortable and enjoy yourself and be part of the group, but don't take any guano.  Trying to please one person is going to annoy someone else.

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Okay, who took my pants?

  Not contradictory at all, and everything you just said tells me you're a good Karaoke Host. I should mention that my style works best in small rooms too.  The thing is, a restaurant bar, though usually small, has bigger rooms connected to it, resulting in a constant influx. This means that even the non-interested diners contribute to the venue's income, giving them the ABILITY to pay more. Plus, the connected rooms generate an influx to the bar ( thanks to the karaoke). On top of that, these owners see a bar that used to close with the restaurant at eleven now full until legal closing time..

  Weed, I say all that because if you like small rooms, this is the way to make big room money.  If you get the opportunity, give it a try!

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Hi, thanks guys!!!

OK, sorry for my ignorance.  So an active speaker has a built in amplifier?  Is it better to have an active or passive speaker setup?  Does it matter?

Thanks!  You guys are great!

There are pro's & con's to each type of system.  
Some pros of an active speaker system.
They use standard microphone cable to get their signal - usually much cheaper than standard speaker cable.
The amps are usually designed for that particular speaker (no guess work).
If one amp blows, you can still limp through a show on the 2nd speaker.
Some cons
You need a separate outlet for each speaker (or run long extention cords).
Not upgradeable - if you want to change out an amp or bi-amp the sytem (many active speakers are already bi-amped - meaning 1 amp for the woofer, 1 amp for the highs (horn).
If an amp blows, you lose the entire speaker while getting it repaired.

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Can I get away without a Sub for a while?  Figure if I use an active speaker setup, I can save something like $650.  WDYT?

If I do, would it be worth upgrading to maybe 18" speakers (like the B-52 LX-218 18" Loudspeakers OR B-52 MX-1515 Dual 15" Speakers) for extra bass?  Would be a good complimentary amp with these?  Could I still use the EP2500?  If I don't get a sub, do I need the crossover Lonman mentioned?  I'm not sure what this is for anyway...  Please explain.  THANKS AGAIN!!!

What makes you believe that you need a sub?

Several KJ's I know are using the RSQ MK-22. Yah want a novel idea?  Forget the VOCOPRO and get 2 RSQ's!

 Why:  You immediately have a backup unit at a total lower cost than the VOCOPRO
           You can still play 2 discs at a time.  Get a 4-way converter box. It goes between the RSQ's and your amp and between the RSQ's and the TV's.
           You can play not only VCD's DVD's but MP3'S, as well!  So, if you intend to use filler music the second RSQ can handle that

Personally, I won't run a show without at least 1 sub - doesn't matter size of venue, it fills out the sound & makes everything more balanced.  A sub will add the very low frequencies that your main (top - satellites) can't reproduce making for mor of a 'concert' feel as opposed to JUST a 'karaoke bar' feel.  I've been in bars that don't have them & haven't been back - it can make a big difference to experienced karaoke singers who cares - over the 'screamer' singers who don't!  Not saying all of the better singers flock to places that use subs (you still have to know how to run your system), but the ones that do use subs - typically know how to run their system & the singers generally benefit from it overall!

The crossover divides frequencies & sends them to their respective amps.  Say you are running a sub & 2 top speakers (sattelites).  If the sub don't have a built in crossover (which most don't) then it is going to be trying to reproduce frequencies that it isn't designed or meant to reproduce resulting in muddy sound - not good.  On the same lines your mains (satellites) are going to be trying to reproduce the lower frequencies your sub(s) are trying to reproduce - again resulting in muddy lows.  A crossover divides the low frequencies & the high frequencies sending each to their own prospective amplifier (being either a separate speaker/amp combo or a powered (active) system.  Keeping the subs reproducing what they are intended to & the tops what they are intended to do.  
If the sub/amp (or active sub) does not have a built in crossover then yes you will need an external to make it sound right.

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