Karaoke Forums

Another DUMB Bar Owner story…….

I was contacted by a bar owner a few weeks ago in regards to hosting a karaoke show at their place.  At the interview they mentioned that the current KJ wasn’t bringing in the people and was playing favoritism with the ones he did bring in.  The owner’s wife asked me point blank “How many people can you bring in” and I replied with... I can not guarantee anyone, I am not in the bar business and can only mention my schedule to the singers, friends and family that I know.
I gave the sales pitch of a good sound system, large library and a fair rotation for all. (Karaoke 101) – I asked for $175/Night and we agreed to START at $125 and see how it goes.
Then they told me the HOURS   9:30PM to1:30PM on a Wednesday NIGHT ..This I told them I felt was the problem…. I suggested that they start at 8:00pm – 12:00pm ..They insisted on the 9:30 start as they said THEY have customers come in late to sing. …….Fast  Forward to last night ….   ( LAST WEEKS  FIRST SHOW WAS OK- 8-10 SINGERS AND THE BAR WAS 20% full) ..not bad for mid week.

Last night the place was EMPTY their were 9-10 people in the entire place until about 11:30 when 3 guys came in to play some pool.   At 12:00pm ---5 people left to go home !!!!!

During the night I walked the crowd and spoke to the few singers that were there and they all agreed that an earlier start would benefit not only them but OTHERS who don’t want to come out at 9:30pm on a Wed night.  

At 1:30pm the owner approaches me and asks if we can do anything with the FEE as the night was SLOW.  He offered me $85 to work with him until it picks up .  I again told him my feelings that the late starting time in my experience is hurting the karaoke.  HE INISISTED again that’s the way they want it their.   I thanked him and walked out  with  ($85) and the  knowledge that I will be calling him today and QUITTING  for 2 reasons:

#1) As a Mobile KJ – I get paid for my services PERIOD no matter if 1 person shows up or 200
The risk of business is the OWNERS responsibility –otherwise I would have bought a BAR instead of hosting Karaoke ….
#2) This owner insists on doing things HIS way but want to hold ME responsible for the outcome

Right or Wrong ?

Sue for the balance of the money.. Small Claims court..

JD - It's just not worth the time and effort.  If I insisted I'm sure he would have gave me the full $125 last night.  But the last thing I wanted to do was get in a confrontation with him ( since he had a few drinks ).  It just amazes me that he realizes his Wed night business is slow but won't do anything about it ( ie changing the hours instead of the KJ)

The karaoke night is sponsered by miller light and they offer prizes every 15 minutes ( tshirts etc)  The beer prices are ok and the place itself clean and on a major highway.  They have outside signage and posters inside.  They also offer Karaoke on SUNDAY nights starting at 9PM and I spoke to that KJ and she said everyone leaves to go home at 12pm.  SO the only thing that would help this THICKHEADED owner is to change the times ....

Still no cure for stupid..

The only people I ever met who actually made money in the bar business were located right across the street from the courthouse.  So, with that exception "stupid" kinda goes with being a bar owner.

I would suggest to the guy that he start at 8:00 and you offer to work afterr 12:00 for free but only if you have singers in your rotation otherwise you fold it up.  After he sees the bigger ring at the end of the night it will be easier to talk.  The risk to you is an extra hour and a half of work.  Setup and tear down has got to be worth $85.00 alone.

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Okay, who took my pants?

Like the other guy said, and you sound like you already know, this is a BAD situation. You have already set the expectation that this guy can dock your pay on a whim. Right now it might be when only 15 people show up, but what happens when 30 people show up and it is still not up to his expectation, so he only gives you $100. We both know already that you will certainly never see $175 at this place no matter what you do.

My first KJ job was very similar to this, an owner who had the expectation that my job was to get people in the door. I always told him that it was HIS job (or the bar manager) to get the people in the door, it was MY job to entertain them while they were there, leave a good impression of the bar, and get them to come back. He never agreed.

I also currently work on a Wednesday night from 9:00 to 1:30, so I can feel your pain somewhat. Unlike my Saturday night, it is hard to get a happy hour crowd on a Wednesday, so I am pretty much left to depend on my regulars to show up early. Fortunately, my bar caters to the hospitality crowd around town, so once they are getting off work around 11:00 I am almost always guaranteed a crowd (last night was about 45 people after 11:00, and that is pretty slow). This may be a good audience for you and your bar owner to target as well to bring in.

Offer happy hour prices to all hospitality workers who show up on Wednesday night (with their uniform or a pay stub. We usually extend this offer to their whole table if the hospitality people bring in friends.) Hand out flyers or coupons at the restaurants within about a 5 mile radius of the bar weekly (again, should be the bar owner's job to coordinate this, not yours). This may take the bar owner 1-2 hours weekly, but if he establishes a good relationship with each restaurant while he dropping off the weekly coupons, then they will almost feel obligated to go to his bar after they get off.

Remember, that hospitality people generally LOVE to party and drink, and the middle of the week is their weekend since most of them have their busiest and latest work days on Fridays and Saturdays.

So if you intend on staying, that would be what I would tell the owner. However, sounds like this guy might not be worth investing in professionally and you should start looking for another gig.

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C Mc
KJ, FL

Topher - Like you I have seen this before - So I am not willing to take the chance the next time its a slow night and he offers me $75 ---The problem I have is the one week its is PACKED to the ceiling with singers he will not OFFER me $200 ?
That is one problem I see - If I understood the terms up front I could have made a decision to accept the job or not.  If I knew that I could make EXTRA money for a larger crowd ( like a commision job) I could see myself doing a little extra.
But right now its just a service agreement - You PAY for the services provided.

Next Time I go in I should drink and eat  all night , run a tab , and then when the check comes ---give him 50% and tell him " sorry I had a slow night" nothing personal and I appreciate you working with me  :D  :D  :D

Let us know how he took it when you call to say you're done!

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I have seen this happen before, the bar owner sending the KJ home early because of a slow night.  I don't really know why anyone would put up with such a breach of contract.  Oh, it's OK for the bar owner to pass his losses down to the entertainer, but I bet same bar owner wouldn't share the profits of a good night!

Maybe that is what should/could be negotiated for your 'replacement' gig if the next bar owner expects you to bring in the clientele... eg be paid a set fee for the night and bonuses for having more than a predetermined number of customers in the bar.

MURRLYN

If the owner would have approached me and asked me to leave early for less pay thats one thing...HE WAITED UNTIL I FINISHED THE ENTIRE NIGHT before offering me less money that agreed.....Thats just wrong in my book.

When these people get in business they have to understand the risks of slow nights and the rewards of very BUSY nights.  They want me to share the risk....but not the rewards......

If u stay there get used to the idea of him shutting down early and you getting only partial payment. This will become the norm as he's tried it out to see if he can get away with it--and he has--so this will be the norm. Slow night--bartender will come to you at 11:30 and tell u to pack up for the night and here's your PARTIAL pay.

Time for you to look for either look for another place, bail with short notice or accept partial payment for a "Partial" nights work.

Drop this place you will end up getting screwed. He will NEVER give u a bonus on a BIG night---he will simply tell you that this is how its supposed to be EVERYNIGHT and why havnt YOU been bringing this big a crowd on YOUR OWN.

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

Yeah, I'd tell him I'm done too.

You already cut your fee for "starters" and now he's wanting to cut your fee again because of slow time, when you as the expert told them the proper time was 8-12?

1.) YOU are the expert at karaoke... not him. His insistance on the hours is what kills the show, NOT you. Therefore YOU shouldn't be held accountable.

OBVIOUSLY if they know SO much about karaoke, they should invest a considerable fortune into the equipment and discs, and books and do it themselves...

What if they hired a chef (not a cook), and then docked his pay because the customers didn't show up for lunch because they started the lunch time at noon rather than 10:30??!! sheesh!

Well I called the owner last night and in a professional way "quit".
I explained it was not an ideal situation for either of us and that I could not guarantee a crowd at any starting time but surely at 9:30 start on a Wed I felt was  detrimental to a good karaoke show.  I told him its wasn't fair for either of us as I would need the full agreed fee every night.  SO WHAT DOES HE SAY TO ME?.......

How about if we move the staring time to 8:00 ?   Can we try a few weeks and see what happens? ....  LMAO  LMAO .  Some might say to give it a try but since he screwed me once.....thats all it takes  ( screw me once shame on you ---screw me twice shame on me!)

I graciously thanked him but declined and told him no hard feelings. We wished each other luck and he thanked me for my candor.

I did commit to work 1 more week if he could not find a replacement --But if he calls he will understand that I want the full $125 no matter who is there !!!


Thanks for listening and hopefully this situation can help some other KJ in the future.


**I KNOW THEY WILL BE STARTING KARAOKE AT 8PM FROM NOW ON****

Or you could say that you'll only do the show if you get paid in advance.  He almost certainly wouldn't do it, which would tell you everything you need to know.

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Reward: nine yen in drawer.

Hope you have better luck in your next gig...   It seems that bar owners such as this one have a very hard time comprehending the concept that professional people are usually hired for their time and don't realise that you may be turning down other gigs because of more favourable rates offered.

I am not a KJ or a DJ, but from what I have seen, there are some of you that are getting some pretty raw deals, which can result in customers being turned off attending (which just makes it worse).  As an example, I used to go to one particular bar in New York City, mainly because the KJ there is very good and has excellent equipment.  He really knows what he is doing and usually draws a big crowd.  One night I arrived about half an hour after the start time, having travelled for an hour by train to get there, only to find the KJ packing up...  Turns out the bar owner decided it was a slow night so canned the karaoke for the night so that he didn't have to pay the KJ for the full night!  (A little better than your scenario, but still sucks in my books!)  Another time at the same bar, I arrived early, had my song slips in and waited for karaoke to start, which it didn't until nearly an hour after the scheduled time because there were only a couple of singers in the bar at start time.   That is another thing that sucks in my books, especially as the normal start time of 9:30pm is already (as you rightly conclude) way too late for a week night (Thursday).  Regardless to say, I no longer attend that bar when in NY, but I do still support the KJ and attend one of his other gigs!

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Jam,

        Nice to see another NJ host on the boards.  Unfortunately, I have to go a bit hard on you here- please take it as advisory and not personal.

        First, the fee:   You told him it was $175, then dropped it by slightly less than THIRTY PERCENT immediately, and for an unspecified period of time ("until it picks up"). This told the owner he had plenty of room to play with you.

        I generally go in, negotiate a set fee,  and explain that there is a six week minimum initial run to build the crowd.  After the six weeks is up, if the crowd is not up to where it should be, the owner is free to boot my butt, and no hard feelings.  I have never done less than a year anywhere.   I NEVER bring up a fee re-negotiation at the time of hire.  If, at the end of six weeks, the owner feels he'd like to pay less then he is free to attempt to initiate negotiation at that time. I never bring it up. This way he let's me know he still wants ME there, so I know I have some leverage to work with.


        Second, the hours/night:    I work Wednesday thru Sunday at a different venue each night.   I'm not certain the 8 o'clock start time will help.  Mid-week, people have to get home from work, eat dinner, maybe deal with kids, and maybe wind down from work, get cleaned up, THEN go out.  If they get home at 6 or 6:30 this can make for a late start.  My Wednesdays are always the latest fill time in the bars.  I go in to set up at 7:30 or 8 and there's no one there.  ( This has been in all of my Wednesday shows (there have been 5 through the years).  They really don't start packing in until 9:30 or 10.  BTW- for some reason this doesn't apply to Thursdays  ( early weekend syndrome?).

     One note:  All of my shows are in northeastern NJ, mostly Bergen County.  It may be different in the more populated areas like Newark, Union, Jersey City, etc..,

      Anyway, the way your situation played out, you did the right thing in leaving as it could only go downhill. Time for a fresh start elswhere....

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Joe
A fellow Jerseyan,  When I originally negotiated this deal I did ask for $175 -knowing well that the going rate for mid week is between $125-$150 in the area.  I was okay with the $125 rate. It was the $85 after a full nights work that got me.  This particular bar  has an older customer base.  9:30 start was just too late .
A perfect starting time would have been 8:00 or 8:30.   It was evident by speaking to both the owner and his wife that they expected the KJ to be responsible to bring in the crowd.  I am always upfront when I take a job --No guarantees as far as customer turnout.  I was under the impression that we were going to give it a few weeks to take off - The last KJ was there about 8 months and I know some of the REGULARS were not happy he was replaced.  So I was ready to try and build back the clientele with the basics.  So I was really taken back when he short paid me on the 2nd night. - - - My Saturday show is steady and I've been there  for 2 years.
and the crowd is always changing there ...

I also think you did the right thing. We worked like that with a bar owner that right after he took over wanted to turn the place onto a resturaunt lounge type place...we had just gotten comfortable there and had a nice following the deal was to "work with him" while renovations were being made & promised us 3 nights ( 1 more than what we had at the time) for doing so after he opened. Well while renovating he would be closed one week open another until people gt tired of coming to the place & him being closed without notice to anyone ( including us)  so our following found another bar in town to go for karaoke & who could blame them. By the time he fully opened back up we obviously had no following & were slow compared to before all of this so in turn did not get our 3rd night AND lost our 2nd one until eventually he started complaining "we" werent bringing people in, oh & I forgot to mention WE did all the advertising & even had email addys of our reg following but it didnt help...the old bar owner had no qualms about putting a seven letter word on the marquis (karaoke) but he did so that was gone now too. We just couldnt bring it back from no return. So he let us go. Then he tried a one man band that didnt do the trick & even another karaoke company & they actually quit on their second night no doubt because he tried that same old tired line about them not bringing people in.  BUT he got his in the end, he spent alot of $ in start up for this resturaunt & it flopped & hes out of business now. I just want to ask him "so tell me is THAT OUR fault too ???" sTuuupid Bar owners !!!

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Kelley
Star Sounds Karaoke & Mobile Recording Studio


[shadow=black][scroll]You have to respect your audience. Without them, you're essentially standing alone, singing to yourself....KD Lang[/scroll][/shadow]

I hate it when you can't tell whether someplace is going to be open or not. In fact, I am going to bet that changing and/or inconsistent hours is one of the biggest reasons places lose customers. I believe hours should be prominently posted and adhered to religiously. If you are going to close for renovation, do it once, post a schedule, and then come back on time.