Karaoke Forums

thank you phxkj!!!!  exactly the types of things I think are possible.

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[glow=red]Yo sucka, we need this hea CHOPTER, and we need it now![/glow]

gotta love their tact.

No warning... just close your doors... now!

I can tell you as a layman, if someone hands me a burn, I wouldn't know that it's illegal. For home use, you can convert your own material.

The only thing I'm aware of per copyright laws is that for commercial use, you can't do the reproductions. But that's not commercial use... it's private use that's brought into a commercial venue.

Matt, knightshow, I think you know my position, I only use original disc's, however I don't believe in closing a place down without notice. But once that copy of  that disc is played in a commercial setting it becomes commercial use even if it origially was made for home. We quit letting our singers bring in burned disc's and playing them about a year ago. Some weren't very happy some it didn't matter. We also try and be as nice about it as we can be.

I didnt know RIAA ASCAP representend SC THM and the rest,.. Since theORIGINAL  copyright and reproduction feea was paid what does copyright laws have to do with me taking one of my cd's or flash drive intobar to sing my song? Dont you people realize this is killing your business? People aint gonna put up with this crap ... They will stay at home like they do here...

Besides that a line is crossed that violates my freedom of speech...You better start thinking about singers rights There will come a time when you wont have to worry about the KJ down the street because there wont be any around...  

You can pass all the laws you want The singers will determine what they want and if they dont get what they want then they will go eslewhere or stay a y home..

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  People like you and the other killjoys that post here are the reason I and many of the best singers I know don't sing in bars anymore.
  I sing for fun.... no fun here.

What really cracks me up about the whole thing, is that the legal experts are still trying to sort these things out, but there are people on here that have all the answers.... ........believe very little of what you read on the internet, and realize, that these posts are only people's opinions. Some people are very articulate, and sound like they know what they are talking about......don't be taken in by their BS.......

 Billy I get drunk and post crap on here at times that I shloudnt but Ill tell you what This old man is sitting here with one of the best systems around and I will NEVER but another cd What I am really frustrated about I have prople calling me begging me to play in a bar.. There isnt a decent show around except one of my old bros and a system I put together...

We go to private parties anymore.. The anti-smokin crap even for non-smokers was one of the last straws.. Anymore if Im in a place that I cant hookup my laptop into the system Ill go elsewhwere.. Why in the hell shpild I have drag out one of the cd's I bought to sing in a flippin bar? And BTW those cd's in the closet are getting more and more worthless with time..

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Actually with those of us using original discs, it's not hurting our business at all.  What does hurt business are pirates and multi-ops who copy and charge chump change for doing shows.

And yes those with the "power" are working on changing the legalities and how to administer the changes on computer usage but it appears it may take 10 years due to the complexities of compensating the copyright holders and how it will work Internationally.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

If you are in a market that it is still economically feasible to invest $1000 of dollars in cd's LIKE I HAVE then I do hope it lasts for you... Enjoy it while you can... If you dont want to listen to somebody with years experince in various businesses and public relations  and can tell you about certain trends that you need to adjust for that is your prerogative. But dont try to stretch a copyright law to somebody singing in a bar when the original legalities was suppose to be satisfied by the cd manus...

Show me any federal legislation or laws ammended to say it's illegal and will stand up in court.. I am tired of arguing that aspect.. If you cant grasp the fact that this has nothing to do with good  public relations or good business practices then you are so one-sided and have tunnel vision..

I no longer care becaus I am no longer a KJ and dont even think about giving me any crap about why I am not... Laws will not determine the final outcome or success or failure of public karaoke.. But I know who will..I can see it in this forum The last year all the tech questions were about setting up home systems.. We  (no YOU)  have to figure out how to get them back in the bars...Like I said in a post above If I go into a place and cant even hook up a laptop, then I am gone.. And you dont need to take my opinion but 90% of the singers in the world.. They dont want to jump thru hoops and worry about copyright laws and requirements that should have been takn care of before anybody bought a cd..

They could have had 50 k songs Nobody could compete with us..I wasnt worried about them I was worried about my people... In an  area where everybody has known everybody else all their life there will be a minimum of bottom feeders.  Those venues with a few singers and a small system doesnt imtimidate or compete a real business If it does then you are doing something wrong...

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I thought that the ATF during a sting op was the only operation that could "close a bar on the spot".  Arrests are one thing, as are "busts", but I wasn't aware that non-drug/alcohol or fire marshall related events could instantly close a venue.  I certainly believe you,  this is just news to me.  Sounds as though running a bar is now becoming as close to impossible as the recent laws pushing things back towards the prohibition days are hoping for  :(

I guess laws in the UDSA* are changing



*(United Dry States of America)



I suppose on the positive side, between alcohol slowly becoming an illegal substance which will shut bars down, aids issues, not to mention date-rape, and stalking fears, coupled with Politically Correct laws, cohabitation laws, married couples now being the minority, I will no longer be the only 51 year old virgin.

"Getting lucky" in America will soon be illegal, or taxed at a high rate !  LOL

Computer sales will skyrocket, People will still need a sex-life !

Seriously though !   What kind of system of jurisprudence allows episodes such as the Austin Texas area bar stings, and right to arrest for "appearing intoxicated" in hotel bars ?

(I apologise Jerry,  My intent wasn't to threadjack.  My concern is "Excessive Government" in any way, shape, or form, especially where the punishment doesn't appear to be commensurate with a "crime" that hasn't yet been proven, and punitive damage recovery is a LONG shot)

The Patriot Act might just be the catalyst for, and start a ball rolling for ALOT of freedoms lost in this nation.  Karaoke Police being able to "close down a bar on the spot" for what "appears" to be a small "entertainment host" violation hence enabling "Karaoke Police" to be judge and Jury as well *is* excessive IMO, (assuming it happened just as you state it did, which I believe it did since I do believe you to be a credible source of accurate info Jerry).

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

It varies from country to country. In Mexico most bars dont close they are open 7/24..... It takes something real major to close them I was in a bar in Jaureez with about 100 GI'S in an out and out brawl.. They closed it...

Here most bar closures are determined by the agency that issues the liquor license IE town council etc.. Anymore there are well defined statutes that determine bar closures or penalties (number of days they might clse a bar) What they are concerned with is of course first and foremost peiople driving home drunk In someareas bartenders have to attend classes and become certified to ascertain the inebrity of patrons. Next is underage drinking This cant clos a bar if determined and proven on the spot but accrues a very seiuos penalty. The most bar closures and bar permanent closures I have ever seen it is drug abuse.. It can t be tolerated in the bar or even in the parking lot.. In this area if there is a distubance in a bar and the cops  arnt called or if somebody gets hurt and 911 isnt called in 3 minutes (More closures)  Of course multiple offenses can cause permanent closures. I didnt even cover hookers or nudity....

I can take you into bars where they wouldnt have made it out of town..

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Of course this is an extremely valid point Ollie.  My thoughts are it varies from COUNTY to COUNTY !   Even within states, these are district ordinances I suppose.

ADDED IN:

     Since a state can have dry counties (here in CT we have 3), it is reasonable to assume alcohol laws would in fact vary in accordance with district or county ordinance.


     A question for those of you in the "bar related" field of work, or those who owned bars, do own bars, etc.

     Is this a clause within the Liquor license that enables entertainment in the bar to bare that much weight on your business being shut down on the spot ?    IOW,  If a person ran a "soft-drink bar", (juice bar) would the "Entertainment Police" still be able to shut the business down "on the spot" ?

     Is this another form of descrimination towards a liquor serving establishment ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

You mean to say you don't invest money in your collection?  Whether CD or legal download site, you still have to pay for the music, don't you?

And I have yet to hear/see a CAVs or PC system that did not have problems or glitches in a show.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Timber I did for years I had a monthly subscrition for THM..  As long as the craze was here and it was feasible for bars to pay $250 a night it was good.. The market now is gone Most of the singers have their own systems esp mon-thur and stay home. It takes more than one gig a week to even keep up on new selections and books etc... Never mind system upkeep...

I am trying to explain to you what caused the demise. It wasnt illegal cd's or digital based systems that did it. In In fact we were the only one in town with computer based shows for 5 years.. All Kj's would walk in listen to the quality and shake their head Theyd give up... The other 90% never updated their selection for years.. I can still show you Kj"s here with less than 300 cd's...

You speak of 10 years to get it settled I might have 10 years left to enjoy singing in bars and during those remaing years I have to make sure I dont step on the original artists rights? I can remember when they were going from town to town and singing in bars like we do now Working fora  living... Most band people here enjoy singing on our systems and they I will support...

EDIT Just a side note Timberlea About 3 yraes ago we went down to Branson We did not go acrsos Kansas on I70 but the litller one north There was no karaoke from one end of the state to the other on weekend.. I was going thru withdrawls...  So in 80% of the country anything beyond hobbyist type karaoke is not profitable...

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True Ollie,  but what are they getting shut down for in above cases ?   These ALL fall into the category of "Public Safety" .  A copy of a CD that the entertainer is using doesn't..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Years ago in my wrecklesness I was hauling cases of cigs from the Winston Salem area up north across state lines for unowho...For years I could go into a lounge like in Chicago and by the smell of the smoke tell you if it was unowho or not.. It was easlily verified when I bought cigs out of the machine If you could mash the pack down to nothing and it would spring back instantly with freshness of less than a week. There are bars even in little towns that always seem to be harrassed by local law enforcement and eventually they are the only one busted for a drug violation or whatever and closed for good...

It wasnt closed for a burned cd... That might have been used as a lever but it would have never worked in most bars and certainly not in a VFW post If it happened to me and they didnt have local cops with them I would have called the sherrifs dept...

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Exactly my thoughts.  It "Appeared" to be closed for a copy of a CD (and for all we know it could've been pornography on the CD handed to an agent) , or there was somebody else in the kitchen getting raided for cocaine simultaneously, OR.. the fire marshall found 120 people in an area that has a permit for 13 (and a parrot), either way if you view this (so it doesn't appear I'm pulling stuff randomly out've a hat and playing Atty when discussing the law),  it appears that "Fair Use" within Copyright law isn't established by an agent walking into a bar and pulling a CD or two... There are other conditions, and it APPEARS (but who knows) that this bar as somebody stated was either bribed by somebody to shut down, and bullied as you say, or there's more than what meets the eye.. OR perhaps the entertainment police DO have a lot of say, but that was the nature of an earlier question...

My question is

A person walks into a bar (no this isn't a seque into a joke), where the entertainer shows him a copy that isn't legit.. and spontaneously the whole bar is closed and ALL 4 aspects of "Fair Use" are delt with on the spot by the person who walks into the establishment.  Hence, the person who walks in has satisfied beyond all reasonable doubt the four following criteria for Copyright infringement, and has established severity of penalty on the spot, no hearing allowed ?  This is the problem I have..

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

FAIR USE ACT

1)    the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of    commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

2)     the nature of the copyrighted work;

3)     amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

4)     the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.


(when you view item #3, it appears nobody has taken proportion into consideration, and that would be penalty phase)

This is a court case.  Not a "whim".

There's always a tendency when discussing "law", and case study to over simplify details.  But Copyright infringement alone (at least to me) doesn't seem so cut and dry that the WHOLE bar would be held libel for "a burnt CD" unless there was more than what met the patrons eye in such a case.  I believe that's how it appeared, but lord only knows what else was going on, or whether or not A LOT of people were violating probation.


  Hey Jerry,  Tell the dude Kappy says he can reopen a week from tomorrow !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Steven, have you read the fair use act or just the 4 conditions of determining fair use. Any copy of a copyrighted work, in a commercial venue is a copyright violation, personal use is the only use that fair use allows. pretty cut and dry if you read it. #3 pertainns to how much of the song or lyrics you use . If you use one or two lines of a song it might fall under fair use . If you use it in it's full version it becomes a copyright violation, at least for commercial application.

Ok.  

Now have you any direction one could go to see the supposed cease & desist letter that the Phoenix bars are receiving, not just the letter that is on that one & only karaoke retailer, but an actual letter.  Also has any of the bars there been shut down for copied media?  If so, which ones?  It's funny that we hear about all this stuff going on, but no one can prove that anyone got one or even a simple copy of the letter.

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

Here Phxkj (note I stayed under the tacit 300 word defense )

Fair Use is a "DEFENSE", in which not JUST #1, but ALL four criteria are taken into consideration.  It's UP TO THE COURT,  once presented in civil action (not "street bust" material), to determine what factors preclude "Fair Use". "Appearing" to violate #1 DOES NOT preclude the right of "Fair Use" as a defense.  Granted, Once an individual is found guilty of Copyright violation, burdon of proof shifts from Plaintiff onto the Defendant and at that point "Fair Use" defense will often be enacted.

OR

Fair use is a right granted to the public on all copyrighted work. Fair use rights take precedence over the author's interest. Thus the copyright holder cannot use a non-binding disclaimer, or notification, to revoke the right of fair use on works. However, binding agreements such as contracts or license agreements *MAY* take precedence over fair use rights.

*and who determines *MAY* and since when are such cases so cut and dry that circumstance, extent etc doesn't enter into play ?   ..  These are complicated cases assuming a court will even see them !  Since it's a lawful defense, "guilt" doesn't prevent "Fair Use" being used. We know nothing yet.

Are you aware of just how rhetorical and ambiguous this type of civil action can be ?  So many of you try to make this all or none, cut and dry... Scare tactics are used OF COURSE, and YES, it's not nice to violate these laws, but my God, some would think this stuff is a simple game of checkers the way some describe things in here.

Please cite me a case where ANY of you as KJ's or subcontractors would automatically lose your rights "on the spot", and lose your right to the "Fair Use" defense in lieu of "What appears to be" digital copyright infringment because of a CD just handed over to a guy from an organization ?   What if it had all public domain material on it ??? What if, what if, what if ???   Exactly !

Oh yeah,  and now for my legal disclaimer:

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".