Karaoke Forums

The positivity abounds!!

You know, I have to kinda agree with those you call "negative." Just ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away, and this is a perfectly suitable forum to present and argue the merits of laws and problems affecting this industry. I think 90% of us don't like the laws, but then again about 90% of us understand why they exist. They are currently flawed, but they are certainly legitimate in their intent. A song is legally someone's personal property, and not just anyone can come along and use it in anyway they see fit, especially to make themselves money. You aren't allowed to use or rent out your neighbor's car without his consent, are you? This situation is pretty much the same thing at its base level.

That said, why do you think this is not the proper forum to discuss and argue such a topic?

If this were a board for the CIRCUS industry and they passed a law saying you couldn't have elephants anymore because they were too dangerous to patrons, wouldn't the board be not only the proper place to discuss it, but almost have an OBLIGATION to the industry to discuss the pros and cons of the law in an effort to come up with the best possible solution if the law was flawed??

This board is EXACTLY the place to discuss issues affecting the karaoke industry, and I personally was pretty turned off when it was becoming merely a social venue rather than discussing issues!!

OH, and p.s., I must be lucky enough to live in the 20% of the country where I can make a good extra income as a karaoke DJ. I currently have a CDG collection of 11,510 songs on 761 CDGs and spend around $500-600 a year on CDGs. In total, I spent about $2,800 on my karaoke business last year and MADE $16,860 in income from it. How's that for positive reinforcement of this industry?

However, not just ANYONE with a PA system and a few CDGs can make it as a karaoke DJ, as I guess you have found out. It is called BUSINESS, my man. Nothing is handed to you in this country, you have to have the skills, acumen, and drive to GO GET IT. If you can't make money in karaoke, you must just not have what it take, or maybe entrepenuership isn't for you!!

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C Mc
KJ, FL

I don't believe in illegal downloads.
I own several thousand cdgs, and I believe I should be able to put them in a form, in which I can most easily use them....as a KJ......and as a singer.

The entertainment industry has spent an unbelievable amount of money, to coerce lawmakers to create laws that defy logic. If I create a tool, and acquire a patent on it, you purchase my tool (sounds a bit nasty...), you pay for it once. Maybe if you're a mechanic, you should pay me a royalty every time you use my tool to fix a car and make money. Maybe a doctor who fixes a professional baseball players injured pitching arm, should receive a royalty every time the pitcher pitches a game. An inventer and a pitcher are artists in their own right, and I'm sure you can come up with other examples. This is not an apple to orange comparison....IMO...the entertainment industry has bribed lawmakers into treating their people differently. I would also assume that the majority of the money collected by the various, so called, licensing agencies, goes to the agencies, and very little goes to the artists themselves.

Billy D,

The beaurocrasy of the music industry is exactly why they have to grab as much money as they can. Look at it from their perspective, and you have to understand that there are about 200 people from point A when the artist writes the songs to point B where you sing them at karaoke, and all of those people have to get paid for the work they put in.

That is why the typical NEW band on a major record label only reaps about 3-5% of the royalties from sales of their albums. You have to be a band of pretty enormous stature that is already an established cash cow for the label before they will restructure that initial contract and give the band more money. Most bands do, however, get the majority of the profits from their touring efforts.

So, then you have to look at WHY the artist needs the label. First and foremost, how is your average working band going to market itself to the entire country or world? How are they going to produce millions of CDs at a low cost? How are they going to promote their music throughout the country and worldwide to get it played on the radio? How are they going to broker deals with the karaoke manufacturers to reach that audience and gain those royalties?

Well, previously, the answer was that they most certainly could not. HOWEVER, the rise of the internet is changing all of that. The internet is the ULTIMATE grass roots vehicle. Bands can promote themselves, sell their merchandise and albums on their own, etc. etc..

Almost overnight, the artist now has a significant, and growing, alternative to dependance on the traditional business model that is controlled by the major labels.

Don't underestimate this fact. Major record labels are now the dinosaur of the industry. They still maintain control, but their control is rapidly slipping away from them and they don't know what to do about it. They can see the future, and they are not in it.

So, once you look at ALL of that in perspective, you can see why the powers that currently be in the music industry are grasping at straws and, frankly, desperate to keep themselves relavent and profitable.

And THAT is why they have put more emphasis than ever on the revenue of companies like BMI and ASACP. What used to be "extra" revenue is more and more becoming "critical" revenue.

Like all things in american culture, just follow the $$$ trail and it's pretty easy to see why the law we have been discussing exists.

Of course, they certainly have the right to ask for a "rental" fee for you to use something that belongs to them. EVEN if they say you have to both buy the CDG and then still pay for the right to use it commercially. That is within their rights, they own the song. It is their property. Your right as a consumer is that if you don't like it, then you don't have to buy the product. And, of course, when enough people decide they don't like it, then the black market starts to thrive and they lose a significant portion of their possible revenue until the business model changes to appease the consumer.

Just like in your example about the doctor and the pitcher. If the doctor wants to charge the pitcher royalties for every pitch he throws after he repairs his shoulder, he most certainly has that right. However, the pitcher then has the right to refuse this offer and go find a doctor that will perform the same service at a set fee. That is capitalism at its finest. Now you can argue that you don't like capitalism, but then the simple answer to that is that you may want to look for another country to live in.

That is the current state of things. It'll all shake out and work itself out eventually, probably to the consumer's benefit, but in the meantime we have to suffer through the transition period of the music industry!!

I believe that the future of the industry is doing away with the beaurcrasy and streamlining the process. That means that the major record labels will have their own in-house production, distribution, promotion, etc., instead of all of these steps being separate intities. Likewise, on the karaoke landscape, the labels will probably (and this is already starting) stop licencing their property to karaoke maufacturers and just make karaoke songs themselves IN HOUSE, which would also mean WITH THE ORIGINAL TRACKS. Then, when you buy the CDG, you WILL be buying the rights to use it at the same time. The combination of the MASS production of CDGs by the major labels and the lack of hungry mouths to feed along the supply chain will mean that the labels and artists will be able to make more money selling CDGs at a cheaper cost.

That is the future, it is just going to take a LONG and PAINFUL transition to get there!!

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C Mc
KJ, FL

Yes, but by reading the posts, I know you are in the process of format shifting, and in the eyes of some people you have already broken the law. I know you're an upstanding guy, and a real go-to guy for anwers around here, and I mean you no disrespect, but we, as human nature dictates, tend to draw lines in the sand at points where we feel comfortable. Everyone likes to throw stones, not realizing that the structures they feel safe in, do contain some materials made of glass......

THE LAW applies to you as aCOMMERCIAL BUSINESS OWNER AND PROMOTER THEREOF. Its called LIABILITY. You either run your KJ/DJ business legally or you dont. You either put your venue into a situation of promoting and supporting an ILLEGAL buisness or you dont. So its quite a bit more than SIMPLY YOU RUNNING EITHER A LEGAL OR ILLEGAL SHOW.---ITs the VENUE/BAR/BUSINESS that then is assuming legal risk by tolerating and benefiting from an illegal/unlawful activity. COPYRIGHT LAW is quite clear. Liscnesing requirements are QUITE CLEAR. You either comply with the laws as they are presently written as statute TODAY. You either operate legally or you dont.

THAT SIMPLE. That clear.

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

Yes that may be true but nothing has went into an actual commercial environment yet - all in home use only at this point.  Kind of watching how this SC/Stellar deal pans out.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I'm just curious.  Has anybody here ever been required to account for the legality of their karaoke songs and system?  I really don't know how seriously the laws are enforced.

karaoker having worked out from you posts, you should be
around 120 years old.
Happy birthday.

I found this interesting reading.

http://weblog.ipcentral.info/archives/2 ... _et_1.html

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

for having 422 posts in just over a month, I think you shouldn't be making judgements against anybody!

Bear in mind folks there isnt a soul here that I wouldnt buy a beer for and sit on a bar stool and giggle about the BS on this forum..

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Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

Can I get a coffee instead ?   Bars made their money off've me.  While others would run 20 dollar tabs on alcohol, I'd be at least that amount drinking Diet Coke, and coffee.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

From my very limited perspective of only having been here 4 months or so, there are two things that I see putting a damper on discussion:

     1. Giggly off-topic fluff posts in random topics where there is serious discussion.
     2. Constant posts concerning anti-piracy in any topic discussing karaoke songs.

On number 1, those types of posts are fine for the people who like to "chat" and have supposedly witty repartee to entertain themselves (and one would hope others). But it doesn't have to be shat all over the place in any old topic. There is the OT forum, the Lounge, for that type of activity.

On 2, obviously we are going to be discussing karaoke songs on a regular basis, in many, many threads. It is very tiresome to have a few posters constantly raise piracy as an issue. Is it an issue? Absolutely. But we all know it is, we all have our opinions, and we don't need to see those opinions stated endlessly everywhere. If you want to discuss piracy, copying, format shifting, and such, start a topic about it and have at it. Don't bring it up in other topics that aren't about that.

Discussing copyright, patent law, which is extremely tricking as-is, and getting emphatic about aspects of enforcement, and ethical constructs in an international forum without having Esq following your name seems ludicrous to me, Have people making definitive claims studied case law in this area ? Can cases where enforcement has been successful/pursued get cited with complete accuracy ? It matters ! Those that are Atty's never would discuss this area in such a forum this matter of factly online btw, it's not a wise thing to do, too many are generalizing without using the disclaimer "This is my understanding of how laws are written".. Just all seems somewhat silly <shrug>..   Might pay to qualify all comments with "As I see it"

Online there are forums that spend time dissecting intricacies of Copyright law, within those forums you seldom see this type contrast of black/white perspective. It just isn't realistic, or this cut and dry.  Without quoting exact cases, or at least excerpts of written laws, it's a groundless debate..  It also pays to have a qualified individual discussing these areas too, and few would wish to do-so over the internet, it's not so cut and dry, and few wish to take on onus..This type discussion becomes little more than dissentience of opinion, rough understanding, and individual ethical constructs with bits and pieces of "I read about that" thrown into the fray..  Copyright law might or might not involve a lot of rhetoric, I don't know, establishing monetary damage seems REALLY tough in this area especially.  But the way it's presented here is just over-simplification of a VERY complicated area of law.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Want an attoneys view?  link

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Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

 LMAO  LMAO

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I speak with Atty's online, over the phone, and in real at least a dozen times a week Ollie.  They are guarded when it comes to individual cases.  There's a reason why in REAL cases, a person retains an Atty for a several thousand dollars, and signs a well defined description, (Atty compensation form) where "The parties hereto agree that signatures are binding on them" prior to proceding in ANY further direction (at least in Ct. regarding civil cases).  This happens even prior to exchanging ANY information on a case, after signatures the case is scrutinized. Advice is VERY carefully thought out !


There's a general trend on the internet,  and thats for discussions to ensue without regard for foundation principles.  Ends up baseless.  I retired from real debating ages ago, and try not to allow myself to get sucked back in  LMAO  It can be SO tempting at times however  :shock:

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

All Im sure of is if I need an attorney to go sing at the White Hore Tavern, we will go sing out at the farm..

And the insanity is that none here seem to realize what is transpirung in the politcal, legal, money money sue mentality is killing the very thing we love.. If you think RIAA is going to save anything other than their own interests then get a life.. These people are killing us and our livlihood out of greed and anybody that supports them is a fool..

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Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

Screw the Atty's,  now about the White Hore Tavern ??  :allears:

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Although the quality is down since we left and its only sat nite It is still one of the few karaoke bars around...

Public kaaoke here is almost gone...Just singing to few people isnt my cup of tea anymore.

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Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!