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Actually I had an interesting experience at a bar. I had taken a client to the tavern for a meal. We had dined and after had popped into the bar to meet up with friends. I ordered a couple of drinks for my friends and a glass of iced water for myself. I was told they did not serve water. I said "what about the whisky & water drinkers" I was informed there was water available for them. I said I would have a whisky and water without the whisky. I was refused.
I went home and stopped the cheque for the meal and wrote a letter explaining why I had done so, and that I expected an apology for being treated so shabbily, after all I had just paid for a round of drinks for my friends.
the ___hole who owned the tavern bailed my husband up and told him he better get me to reinstate the cheque or our names would be mud around town. As I have always been a worker and can balance my own cheque acct, I took offense at the idiot. I phoned him and said that I was a big girl and would make my own decisions and no browbeating of the other half would force me into something I didnt want to do.
He blustered and made all sorts of threats, so I went to the newspaper. They called the news item "Cambridge Watergate" it hit the national paper . I ended up paying only AFTER it had cost him at least as much in solicitors fees to recoup the money NEVER mess with a redhead, and never assume that the man rules the household

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

While most agree with me, Meep, JoeChartreuse and others have debated my view on non-spenders.  Those of you who have done so seem to be so set in your thinking that you won't try to open your minds to see what I have said, in its totality, through my many posts.

Yes, goodwill and customer service is important to every business, but one has to be a customer or potential customer to deserve service.  The people I complain about appear at many of the venues I frequent and spend little or nothing anywhere, most of the time.  These are not people whom I am unfamiliar with as to their penchant for singing or what their spending habits are.  
Now, if I don't like the length of the rotation somewhere, and there are a 1/2 dozen "non-spenders" in the rotation, AND I LEAVE TO GO ELSEWHERE  --- THAT'S NEGATIVE GOODWILL.  

Furthermore, I posed the question to JoeChartreuse how he would react if he owned a venue and I informed him that while I will still come to his venue (helping to lengthen the karaoke rotation) I have no intention of continuing to spend much if any money in his establishment, since so many other (regulars) spend little!  Please, those of you who justify non-spenders, justify my (fictitous) stance to this forum.  I CAN'T.  BUT IF YOU CAN JUSTIFY SUCH A STANCE I'LL START USING IT.  Oh, (AND THIS IS FOR REAL) I'm a good singer, a very good singer!  I'm constantly complimented by audiences.

What I have shared about the impact of non-spenders is not anecdotal or hypothetical.  I, as a businessman, often look at a business establishment and try to determine how profitable it is.  I've predicted the demise of many businesses long before it happened or became apparent to others that there were problems.

DBK, perhaps you could assist at this juncture?  You recall a couple of weeks back Robin and I came to your show and left because there was nowhere to sit?  I don't even know how long the rotation was at that point.  Subsequently, you acknowleged in this forum that you've had people at your show who, occupy seats, occupy space in the rotation and who have spent virtually nothing.  

So, what is that I have said about the impact of non-spenders that relates only to where I live or the places I frequent?  What is it about what I said that should not be of considerable concern to owners of karaoke venues and those of us who are having trouble finding karaoke venues because its becoming less and less profitable?  TEXAS HOLD -EM IS WHAT 'THEY' WANT THESE DAYS! AND KARAOKE IS NOT DOING WELL HERE IN S FLA

I think that this market has had some challenges. Not the least of which being 3 major companies that multi-rig and send in $50 a night people to host, while they collect $150-200.

In this market, as I am sure it is in many markets, Karaoke is looked to as a "last resort". When a bar has tried everything else, and nothing works, they bring in karaoke. The philosophy is that karaoke hosts have a reputation and following, so that by bringing in a new host, you bring in a new crowd. WRONG!

The only people who tend to follow hosts around are the non spenders (as a general rule). Simple math is the reason, because if you have the time to go to 4 or 5 bars a week, then you probably don't have the money to spend a lot in each. Again, there are exceptions.

Anyway, back to point. These less than desirable "following" are the first people a bar owner sees. If they are looking to you to revive a dead night, they look at this as a failure and cut karaoke or change hosts. What most bar owners do not realize is that karaoke is cultivated. The best way to grow a show is to start with some of the bars regulars and turn them into singers. They in turn bring regulars from other nights to hear them and their new found talent. They also bring in friends and co-workers, who also find they have a talent.

Unfortunately, this does not happen overnight. Or in a few weeks. Or in a couple months. And until it happens, the 'Coke-sucker' image can kill you. Finding a patient bar owner is the trick.

I will be the first person to admit I am FAR from being the best host out there. I do not have the LARGEST or MOST up-to-date selection. I got lucky. I started at a bar that has a long history of Karaoke. None of the previous hosts ever 'killed' it there, so I inherited a good crowd. I have the luxury of being able to weed out non paying customers. But, there have been noghts when they were all I had, and I had to make it work.

Eric, wish I could tell you there was a black or white answer to this, but you are just going to have to straddle that line like many of us do until you know what the venues threashhold on spenders vs. singers is.....

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Let's Kick the Tires and Light the Fires!

DBK

I think you said it all.  I don't know what I will do when (and if) I start hosting karaoke.  I just know how I feel about the non-spenders at the venues I frequent and how I wish someone would invite them to leave.  If that would ever happen, it might be a lesson to all that everyone has to contribute (to the venue) for the entertainment.  Just because there are folks who enjoy your presence (and tips) or find you to be entertaining when you're singing, does not justify foregoing the cost of paying for your entertainment.

And I, for one, am not going to chastise any owner who throws out a TRUE non-spender!

What, him being more experienced and right?


No, what is now completely apparent is that you have built up a  personal resentment against people you don't feel "contribute" as much as you do, and who take your place in the rotation.

You might be happier if you get over it.

If you are a singer  who constantly sings five-minute songs, then I had a resentment against you. But I realized the only person suffering from it was me, so I got over it.

For the people who claim that you are getting four hours of entertainment, I laugh. Entertainment is in the eyes of the beholder. Fact is, the sound of my own voice is what entertains me at karaoke. Watching people drink doesn't entertain me. Watching bad singers doesn't entertain me. I put up with it so that I can get my moment in the sun.

That may put you off, or you may think it is egotistical, or you may think it selfish of me to want to sing a lot. But that is what entertains me, and if you don't like it, tough. Either venues will exist to satisfy me, or they will not. I won't feel a bit guilty if they do or don't.

This is becoming a hard fact here as well!  Many of the karaoke clubs & nights are going down this path, lessening nights they do it or dropping karaoke altogether.  The ones that are keeping karaoke are doing more dj mixing into the evening as well.
With all the crap going on with the SC/Stellar threats & lower quality companies, I truly believe karaoke is going into a demise.  There will be a handful of places that will keep a couple nights (or maybe the lone dedicated bar), but it will never be the same as it once was in it's heyday.

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And maybe in the long run that will be a good thing.  The pirates will fade out and the honest hardworking hosts that have been established shouldn't get hurt by it.  It could be the shake up the industry needs.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

I am sorry I missed the heyday! It certainly still is popular here. But we in the Midwest are usually behind the times.

Personally I think karaoke is here to stay. Having never seen the popular times in hot places like the coasts, I don't know much about what it was. But just what it is now is good enough for me.

    You're right is is getting a tad wearing...


                    1)  To repeat: Your scenario is not of my experience. I never claimed it didn't exist, did I?

                    2)   If a bar is doing well enough to bring in a 20 person rotation, that it's also bring in a truckload of non-singing drinkers, also supporting the venue and the host. I didn't see those numbers in your equation.

                    3)  I have no idea, and never said you did.  What I tried to get across was the same as the above. You're not including all the numbers. Without the rest of the customers, the impression given is that the non-spenders are the only ones in the bar. Are these bars that you run into only big enough for 20 singers and no one else?

                    4)....and your non-spending customers would be made to feel welcome in my bar  ( occupancy:  over 20 ), in hopes that youl would tell your SPENDING friends what a warm and friendly place I have....

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

    1)  I fairly new here, so maybe I've missed someting, but I haven't gotten that impression.

     
    2)  .....and those who BRING IN MORE SPENDING CUSTOMERS?  Shall I insult my coke drinking old man, looking bad in front of my other customers, while he takes his 9 drinking friends and leaves? For what positive purpose?  I lose the revenue his friends would have provided, I lose the good will of the other customers watching me or hearing about the old guy's shabby treatment, I don't even get the coke money.  The establisment is in a fixed place. A customer is mobile, and can always find another venue. The bar can't be moved to a new locale to start over with a new customer base.  Come on,  THINK!

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Joe,

This is my last post regarding the above.  I am not a fool.  There are no other patrons included in my numbers because, basically, the karoke is not attracting anyone but the singers.  The other patrons are regulars who would be there with or without the karoake.

The most important factor, which I've listed, are the number of "karaoke" venues that are out of business since the fall or quit offering karaoke.

Ture karaoke is going to attract singers, but there are non-singers that do go into karaoke shows as well just to watch.  Plus friends of singers that go in that don't sing but still support the show because of maybe 1 singer at their table.

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Lonman, though I said I had made my last post in this matter, I came back to add one edit.  Instead, I'll provide one last post.

EDIT: Those of us who spend the most in the 20 singer rotation scenario I offered, were accompanied by significant others.  And, again, if there were as separate audience of note for karaoke in the venues I frequent, their numbers would have been noted in my last scenario.

While you may want to believe that all karaoke venues bring in an audience, at least one of you indicated that you don't care to listen to other singers when you go out to sing, so why is it so hard to believe that there may be no "audience" for the shows I frequent?  If singers don't want to listen to other singers, why would strangers?

I agree that the venues that have stopped offering karaoke might not have needed to do so, in spite of singers who won't spend money, if there were any significant audience.  But wouldn't it be nice if the singers supported the karaoke, instead of relying on "strangers".

Clearly, I guess, there's no truth to what I say if somebody out there can't relate to it.  Or maybe it's because people believe I have nothing better to do than fill my time posting fictituous information.  As one poster noted, things usually hit the coasts before the heartland.  So, soon, you'll see it for yourselves.  When I arrived in FL 15 years ago Karaoke was vibrant and all over the place.  Ironically, I didn't enjoy it up until recently.  We don't need SC and Stellar, or hack KJ's to end karaoke.  What's left of it will be killed by the economics, and those who think others are paying the tab.  

Lastly, for those who may have missed this previous post:  Back in September I seriously lost my voice and couldn't sing for about 6 weeks.  I continued to go to and support the karaoke shows I liked to attend.  Nonetheless, three of them are now gone.

But now my eyes have been opened wide by those of you who disagree with me.  You're right, I'm wrong!  There is no need for me to spend money.  I'll just become any even bigger tipper than I am.  Also, I'll start tipping the KJ, which I've never felt a need to do before!  And until the inevitable day comes when there is little if any Karaoke left, I will stop spending any significant amounts of money at karaoke venues.  

Thankfully, with the collection of karoke I have, when the last venue is gone I'll still be singing at home, maybe even online.


FINAL POST

Bingo.

My wife and I eat at our local places which do karaoke something like four times a month. We often bring our children or friends if they are visiting, and one place we sometimes go to when there is no karaoke because the food is good. I sing every rotation, but my wife sings once or twice. Of the other people we bring, only one of my daughters sings.

There are usually something like 12-15 singers, and 35-50 customers. Since these are early places (6:30 sunday and 7 Wednesday), the people eat meals.

I am now acquainted with both owners, and they are tickled at what karaoke has done for their business. These are the places we enjoy most -- early family places which have karaoke. And here they are doing great.

I personally also go and investigate places before I even think of bringing anyone else. If it isn't a place I want to bring my family, I will go sing there but not bring anyone else. If I were a youngster with lots of drinking friends, I would behave differently. But I am a middle-aged man with a family -- it's what I got, and I kind of like it.

                    1)  Eric, post or not as you see fit.  However, If I ever gave you the imression that I thought you a fool, or was disrespectful in a personalized manner, than I offer my sincerest apologies.  I may disagree with you here, but your posts are well thought out and intelligent.  


                     2)  ....and now the bad side. If karaoke is only bringing in singers, than it's a hosting problem.  As I've stated before, I am not a "KJ". I am a Karaoke Host.  My job is to make sure ALL are entertained and feel that they are in a friendly atmosphere.  In actuality, I bring in more non-singers than singers. This happens because the singers that I bring in let their friends know what a good time they'll have whether they sing or not.   My Wednesday night is a restaurant bar. The restaurant does well, but the bar has NO regulars. No entertainment means the bar is completely empty by ten.  I bring in ALL of the patrons.

                            My Friday is also a restaurant bar. They have regulars, but prior to me, the regs would START their Friday there and move on- closed by 11:30.  Now they're packed until after 2:00am. When I say packed, I mean with singing AND non-singing spenders - and a few cheapies.

                            Did a biker bar for a few years.  The place held about 85 people. My rotation was never big- I don't think I EVER topped 15 there. But that was another place that stayed packed.  ( I left for more money and a more upscale environment- got tired of people puking on themselves and others)

                            The point is, a decent host will attract ALL types of people, not just singers. As for the bar's previous regulars:  If you can keep them there longer, then they're spending more because of YOU. YOU are bringing in the added revenue.


             One other thing regarding charging the singers a cover  ( Bought up elsewhere, I don't believe by you).  The singers are the entertainment ( with some help from the host). Would you charge the members of a band a cover the night they play?

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

What I have seen work in places is a cover charge (it was $5) that gives you a token for the amount of the cover for food or beverage purchase.  If you come in just to drink water, then you already paid something for the night.  If you come in to drink & spend, then that $5 goes to exactly where it was intended in the first place.

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In the long run what determines final decisions are the regulars that's been patronizing he bar for years..  A successful operation knows how to cater to all types and the ones that mingle with and get along with the crowd are the ones that generate energy or high turnout..  Frankly more concern should be placed on assuring that nobody gets overly inebriated and drives home than people that dont drink.. And successful bars do just that.  Ive spent periods where I was a regular at karaoke bars.. I overheard the owner telling a new gal that he was breaking in See that old man over there If he begs never give him a drink(that was my request).  For he realized that that I and a few other on the wagon singers provided entertainment that he would have to pay dearly for.

When the z tape totals 1000 - 2500 a nite it is immaterial who drank and who didnt..

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 Lon, in theory, that should work just fine.  I have no first hand knowledge of it.  The only thing that MAY be a problem is the IDEA of a cover for singers, even if they get it back. Might bug the more egotistical,....You would obviously know better than I- Any resistance at all in your experience?

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

 Kery, if I had been smart enough to post this then all of that debating would not have been neccesary. You nailed it.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."