Karaoke Forums

I'd rather have 10's of karaoke locations to choose from then 10.  And what makes you think that just because we have only 10 locations here they are all of good quality?

I just had an argument with the owner of a Karaoke company whose KJ's started 1/2 hour late at the last two (different) shows of his that I attended.  And after starting late, the KJ was the first up to sing.  He couldn't care less that the shows got off to a late start.

And one of his systems is desperately in need of repair which anyone can hear and the owner has ignored (per the KJ).  

With the number of choices that seem to exist in your area, I am envious.  I would take the effort to try many of them and scout out the best. I have no interest in singing on line.

I know you are just looking for an alternative to my shows Eric........

Seriously tho, I know what you both are saying. There is a problem at either extreme- too many shows and it's a pain in the rear to flesh out the good ones. Too few shows and you are at the mercy of whoever is in business....

I am starting to find out just how poor the quality in our (Ft Lauderdale) area has become. I do not think I do anything that special, but I have many people come up to me and tell me how good a job I do, and how much they enjoy it. As I said a few months ago, I won "Best Sound System" in a KJ contest with 1/2 a blown AMP! That right there tells me there is a problem....

Maybe we should start some threads on here for some of the more karaoke heavy areas with reviews of venues. Yes, most of us are KJ's, but I still go to check out other shows.

Any interest?

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Let's Kick the Tires and Light the Fires!

DBK

One show I alluded to in my last post is on Sun the other on Wed.  You are so right about the quality of the shows that are left around town.  Many of the better kj's are gone.  I know two KJ's in particular who left the business because they were being undercut in price.   And not only is the quality, in too many cases, going downhill, there are fewer and fewer shows to choose from!

I know most of the shows in the area and there aren't too many that I would consider as notable.  And there are many KJ's who seem to have little enthusiasm (left) for what they are doing!  As a result, too many shows routinely start late.  Few shows are attracting many new singers, so its the same singers/same songs week after week for most of the shows.

But I don't want to bore you or this forum with the disappointing scene we have here.  Hopefully, things will improve.  Until it does, I will remain envious
of what Phoenix has to offer.

  Can't agree with that one.  I have a coke drinker who is the center of a large group of solid drinkers and singers.  But he helps bring in hundreds of dollars in revenue to the bar, which in turn, helps pay me.


  One other thing. A good singer helps entertain the DRINKING non-singers, and also may help get the ball rolling if he comes early.

   Unless you are working a tiny venue where room is at a premium, I would certainly make an exception for the second, and will ALWAYS welcome the first. I might add that I speak not only as a karaoke host, but with prior experience as a bar manager and bartender....

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

I'd be game, but I doubt that it would be allowed - I believe it would be considered advertising & not allowed.  
Besides what would be the criteria?  Star system - 1 star=poor - 5 star=excellent?  

Separate catagories?

Host personality.
Rotation fairness.
Selection.
Quality of selection.
Sound.
Club atmosphere.
Wait staff.
Prices.
Comment line.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Joe,

This discussion has repeated itself over and over in different threads.  I don't understand why non-spenders are so welcome in the eyes of so many people?

So, let's try this one more time.  It is not unusual for my wife and I to spend between $30 - $70 when we are out enjoying karaoke (depending whether we eat dinner or not).  We spend our money freely to support the venues that provide me the opportunity to enjoy my hobby.

If I come to conclusion that the position you and others espouse is more correct - that those singing needn't spend money - than why do I need to spend money to support karaoke?

I can go eat dinner in the restaurants I most enjoy, which is not where I typically sing.  And diet coke is fine with us all night, instead of mixed drinks.  So, while we'll probably end up paying more by eating dinner elsewhere, we'll be eating what we really enjoy.  But we'll be saving two thousand dollars a year on the drinks we don't buy!

And then one day we'll find that yet another venue we go to has dropped Karaoke because it just really didn't pay for itself.  And at this point in my life, I really don't care anymore.  In one respect, I always agreed with BD, bar owners (and most business owners) are not so smart as you may think!  

Lastly, in none of these threads has anyone considered that I know who supports, economically, the venues I go to and who doesn't.  Those in this forum who finds ways to justify embracing non-spenders by offering, as an example, the scenario that the non-spender is accompanied by a group of friends that spend lavishly.  Well what if he/she is never accompanied by such a group?  Or, what if the non-spender is accompanied by said group only occasionally?   What if the non-spender pops into your place to sing one time and pops out to the next place to sing again more quickly, when done?

And then there are those who are accepting of someone not spending money because they are so entertaining.  If they're so entertaining, why not let them sing twice as much as anyone else?  That will surely be even more entertaining, and I assume, bring in more business.  And if that is actually the case, let the venue hire the great singer to entertain all night instead of hiring a KJ.

So, Joe, let's say you own, not manage, the venue where I sing karoake and I am a regular customer.  I come to you and say, "Joe, you have people coming in here, regularly, for the purpose of singing, that don't really spend any money.  And you don't seem to mind.  Please understand, that I will keep coming here to sing, I love this place, but I see that in order to be welcomed I don't need to spend any money.  So, please understand that I won't be spending much here anymore.  Instead of saying nothing at all about it, I wanted you to know what's going on, since I've been coming in here for a long time.  I'm sure you understand. You do; don't you?"

UNfortunately, I think we are getting caught up in extremes here again.

Eric- it only becomes a problem when you are at a bar that hired karaoke as a way to boost a dead night, and every drink counts. I have done those shows, and when you have 10 singers and 5 don't drink more than a soda, it's a problem.

Most people do not drink at karaoke because they fell it's supporting the show. They drink at karaoke for courage, to drown out the bad singers, or because they are drinkers. You are the exception to the rule- you can either drink or not drink, and still have a good time. For many people, karaoke or not, they are going to a bar to drink.

Now, even at a busy show there are limits. I had 2 friends show up last week I hadn't seen in a while. They showed up early, sang awefully, and turned in about 7 songs each. They only sang one turn each. Why? Not because they were bad, but because they infuriated me by ordering tap water and then bringing in soda bottles from the convenience store down the plaza and bags of chips. They even had them right on the table in plain sight. Now they didn't hurt the bars business by being there, nor make a difference in the bars ability to pay me, but it still irked me.

That is why I think it is so hard to draw that line.....

_________________
Let's Kick the Tires and Light the Fires!

So true Dave.  But consider, that there is no other show I go to that is packed out like yours!  And, as you know, JJ Muggs, where I used to go twice a week is gone.  Java Dlites is gone.  JB's raw no longer has Karaoke, Geri's no longer has karaoke, Marsha's no longer has karaoke, Mystics is gone, Feeny's is gone.  All of this since the fall!

What gets my dander up is not those who say it is hard to draw a line, because it is.  I am riled by those who condone and even justify such abuse by non-spenders with scenarios that portray it as being good for business!  So, while other posters are happily justifying why someone doesn't spend much of anything, I'm taking my money elsewhere, and they can't factor that into their scenario!

And good for you.  I think what you did to your friends was appropriate.  But it makes me wonder what is it about karaoke that gives people the liberty to bring in bottled water and not buy anything.  They wouldn't, I'm sure, walk into any other venue (one without karaoke) and try that.  So... this experience of yours, I hope your realize, simply reflects my point.  EXCEPT THAT YOU DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT AND DIDN'T CONDONE IT!  

Lastly, please remember that this thread was created by someone who was upset with a club owner who had, had it with someone sitting around nursing an iced tea all night while they sang.   And the second posting alluded to "losers" the poster has seen over the years who order nothing but water!

Now, to totally skew the matter....

Two of our other good friends are recovering alcoholics. They come out to the show and stay all night. One sings, one doesn't. One orders a coke (free refills) and the other Cranberry and sprite (free refills). How can I discrimnate against either of them for not spending money, considering they usually come in after the kitchen is closed?

It is for people like that, that make a hard line impossible to draw.

(PS- Gerris is back up with Pete from Mousetrap)

_________________
Let's Kick the Tires and Light the Fires!

You shouldn't be concerned with, at least I'm not, with isolated incidents.  If, however, the same people do similar things week-in and week-out, who needs them?

Eric, I don't think that chastising a bar owner for physically tossing a singer out in mid-song  just because he wasn't spending $ on the bar could be called excusing the behaviour of the singer.  If the singer was on his own or with a group and the whole group were only drinking water or nothing at all, then yes, that gets my back up.  But when ONE person in a group is not drinking and, as you put it, paying his way, then I consider it a rather stupid action to throw him out.  Ummmmm, maybe he was the designated driver (I understand there ARE DWI laws in NY)... who knows? All I do know is that all his friends who were adding to the bar take, discontinued adding to the bar take.... along with some others who were disgusted with the bar owner's actions and left.  Oh, by the way, this "regular" hasn't been back there since!

Murr

What have I ever said that justifies rudness?
What have I said that indicates I am concerned with isolated incidents.  (Of course there are designated drivers)
Of course their are people who come in together, regularly, as a group.  Such circumstances are what allow me to refer to "we" (my wife and I) in describing my activities.

Out of curiousity, where in this thread did it state that the singer was ejected mid-song?

I stand by my comment that too many people herein make excuses for people who don't support the karaoke that they love.  I've considered every argument offered to rationalize/justify such behavior.  Just because there are occasions in which there are mitigating circumstances doesn't change the truth.  THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO SING AND TRY TO GET AWAY WITH SPENDING VIRTUALLY NOTHING TO DO SO, WHILE OTHER PATRONS ARE PAYING FOR THEIR ENJOYMENT.  And, as DBK implied, such people are a lot easier to identify in smaller groups than in venues with hundreds of patrons!

Lastly, my concern is that karaoke remain available locally for those who enjoy.  It is far from thriving where I am at.  So, to me the issue is crystal clear - where will I and the person who loves to sing but won't financially support the venue, go when the venue no longer offers karoake or goes out of business?

Perhaps B flat can give them input regarding how to sing online?

Bars, Taverns and Pubs offer Karaoke for 2 reasons - To bring in customers who normally wouldn't be there without karaoke.  But the sad truth is that THESE customers must spend money...good money.  Not $2 for 4 hours worth of entertainment . If you don't drink Alcohol....Thats fine ...buy something
2nd reason is to offer another form of entertainment for the customers that would be there karaoke or not.  Both of these reasons have the same end result ---REVENUE for the bar.  As a pro KJ my job is to keep the BAR happy so I keep my job and eventual get more money for doing a better job.  

Karaoke gets cancelled from bars for one reason only..NOT ENOUGH MONEY COMING IN TO SUPPORT THE EXPENSE OF A KJ.  
Thats why you have $50 a night KJ's ( some with very good equipment )  

Singers have to understand ..its a business and both Manager and KJ have to act accordingly...if you don't want to spend money to have fun singing karaoke ..stay home and sing in the shower or on line or with your own system......

Jam

Thank you, Jam.  Am en

 IMHO  this is not a "sad truth", just an economic reality.

And I'm sure I'll once again hear about some great singer who is somehow supporting karaoke economically through his/her singing alone.

And maybe, somewhere, there is, such an exceptional case?  There are often exceptions to every rule.  I have been focusing on the consistently self-centered person who wants to sing but rationalizes reasons for not paying in order to do so!

I see them all of the time and I don't buy any excuses for such bad behavior.  And, though this may be considered harsh of me" - SUCH PEOPLE SHOULD STAY HOME  AND LEAVE AN EXTRA TURN IN THE ROTATION FOR ME IF:
   your can't afford to pay
   you have medical reasons for not purchasing much of anything
   you are a recovering alcoholic frequenting a bar (that offers nothing but drinks) and can't find anything to purchase

THERE IS NO GOD-GIVEN RIGHT FOR PEOPLE TO SING KARAOKE
WHEREVER IT IS AVAILABLE SIMPLY BECAUSE IT IS THERE

You are talking apples and oranges here. Internet karaoke may be better for you, but it will NEVER replace live performance.

First off, you just can't get the same adreneline rush from singing into a mic at home in your underwear as you can in front of a crowd of 100+ people!! It just is not a social activity, unless you call internet chat and critiquing songs a social activity, which I guess it is for some of the more socially inept.

Second, I still contend that karaoke is NOT an hallowed art form, like some of the more serious peeps seem to think it is. It is the AMATEUR version of a professional industry that 99.9% of us will never get to taste. It is getting up and feeling like a rock/country/pop star for 3+ minutes NO MATTER how poorly you sing. If karaoke was meant for only good singers, it would be a professional event!! Those that take it too seriously are really taking away from it, in my opinion, and I find that most of the people on the internet karaoke sites take themselves WAY too seriously!! Most singers AND non-singers alike enjoy seeing some drunk guy having a great time while he crashes and burns doing a fun song, or a bunch of girls dancing around while they absolutely slaughter LOVE SHACK as much, if not more, than the local "Holier than thou" diva doing a dead-on version of some Celine Dion song. Hell, the most popular singer I had last night was a 400 lb. guy who sang Total Eclipse of the Heart in a girl's voice. There was 0% talent involved, but it must more entertaining than any of the so called "good" singers!! In fact, I can't even recall what my bar's local diva sang last night. I tune it out because she's a pain in the a** and her ballads are boring, no matter how well she sings them.

Live karaoke is MUCH MUCH bigger than internet karaoke and always will be!! It is just more accessible. Your average person doesn't have the inclination or technical expertise to record and post a song onto an internet site. I don't think I am off base when I say that TENS of MILLIONS of people enjoy karaoke across this country nightly (and 100s of millions across the world), while mere thousands (tens of thousands, maybe?) are partaking exclusively in internet karaoke. Hell, even most of those that do partake in internet karaoke still go out to live shows!!

Sorry, my friend, but live karaoke is alive and well!!

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C Mc
KJ, FL

It's a LOVE /HATE lovers triangle between
BAR OWNER - KJ - SINGER

KJ's are stuck in the middle --  We have no choice but to keep singers happy and coming back.  Without singers ( good or bad) there is no bar karaoke !!!
Without enough revenue for the bar ( food or alcohol or soda) there is no KJ .
I've said it many times before ...Once a show gets to succesful and the rotation too long ...people start to go elsewhere so they can sing that 1 extra song each night .
Then the shows becomes less succesful until ...... the singers come back
whichthey eventually do .  A PERSONABLE KJ  / A GOOD BAR STAFF / A GOOD SELECTION / A GOOD SOUND SYSTEM will win out in the long run.

Karaoke is one of the only forms of interactive entertainment that costs very little to enjoy ( it actual costs nothing but you do have to spend money as indicated)

  We DO sing live online. I'm not talking about recording songs and posting them like we do here in SS. And there is a difference between singing live in a room online and just recording a song when you're singing to yourself with no audience.
  I sang in karaoke bars for years, and for every 1 singer who's "so bad they're good", there's a dozen who just suck. And yes, some of the divas are just as obnoxious. And after those years, I've heard enough country music to last 10 lifetimes. Meanwhile, half the time I got the mic, the volume and reverb settings were off 'cause the last guy was so loud he barely needed a mic and I don't sing that loud. A competent kj would adjust it right away, but the others would just ignore it. I've even stopped in the middle of a song because I couldn't hear myself... what's the point?
  Now I do my own mic/reverb settings. Right before Christmas I went out to sing in a bar and meet up with some friends. After sitting through one 22 singer round, I brought one of them back to sing online. She was amazed. For the 1st time, she could actually hear herself over the music! We sang for hours and had a much better time than we were having at the bar.
  If you want to listen to people who can't sing get up and butcher song after song, knock yourself out.

Eric,

         I would agree with you 100% regarding the scenarios you've given.  However, I've never run into one like that in 30 years. First, let me say that I HAVE been a minority owner as well as a manager.  
   
         Yes, a bar full of non-spenders would be a disaster. However, the normal case is a few soda drinkers in a bar full of spenders. NO DAMAGE.  Agaon, if your bar only holds 30 people, than a space premium would cause a difficulty. Then again, a bar that holds 30 probably wouldn't be hiring live entertainment anyway.

         Now, here is a true scenario. The coke drinker with all of the drinking friends that I spoke of earlier is a local legend. He's a little old man of 85 years. Everyone thinks he's adorable ( actually. he's a cranky old fusspot, but that's another story). If you go to a local home party of 23-40 year olds, chances are he's been invited.

        He walks into a bar where he's been a regular, to find out he will now be charged 5.00/coke (normally 3.50 anyway) on karaoke night.  Of course he leaves, and takes a few hundred in revenue with him (his friends). But we ain't done yet. He tells everyone what happened . The little old man on the fixed income is being raped by the bad venue owners. Surprise!  The venue hasn't topped 3 singers since, and will probably stop karaoke soon...BAD PRESS.  For an extra 2-3 dollars at the end of the night?

        PLEASE NOTE:   Everyone has friends who drink and eat, even non-drinkers, with whom they will speak of good and bad bars.

         All public establishments- retail ( welcome browzers- they may buy next time or make a referral), eateries, bars, whatever, should make ALL feel welcome. You never know who THEY know....

_________________
"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

You know, Joe, this is exasperating.

So, what you're saying to me is that I am complaining about a set of circumstances that don't exist because YOU haven't encountered them IN THIRTY YEARS?  
How insulting!  I am complaining about circumstances I encounter several times a week in many different venues and I've only been doing Karaoke for a few years!  And in many of the venues I attend the rotation of singers is well less than 20.  

Let's say 10 singers spend $10 a piece through the course of an evening.  That's $100 bucks in revenue.  4 don't spend much. if anything at all; let's say $20 bucks of revenue in total.  Two arrive to sing just one song and to scoot to another karaoke venue to sing when their turn is over.  That's nothing -0- in revenue.  And four of us spend $40 a piece.   That's $160 in revenue.

Let's say it's a four hour show and the KJ gets $200.  The singers contributed $280 in total revenue and what they purchased cost the venue $45.  So, there is a profit of $245 before the KJ is paid.  After the KJ is paid, the venue is left with $45 for its efforts.

Being that you're experienced in managing a bar, Joe, how far off can this scenario actually be from reality if there are 20 or less singers and the KJ costs $200?

Now if everybody singing spent as much on Karaoke as it costs to go to the movies the venue would have gross revenues of $350 dollars from 20 singers!

By the way, in what post did I create a scenario with a bar full of non-spenders or a venue that accomodates only 30 people?

So, Joe, you didn't respond to my statement that while I enjoy your establishment and expect to continue frequenting it, I have no intention of spending any significant amount of money in your place, since there are others who don't?