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Sure that is a part of it I guess Ham, but I think what we are getting at here is the emotional turmoil that seems to go hand in hand with incredible talent. Think of Van Gogh for instance.
On a weirder scale think of Michael Jackson, perhaps not the best example but talent and creativity develops in strange breeding grounds
It is the exception rather than the rule to see an abundance of talent in a grounded sensible individual

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

ALL the Jackson children Vicki. (Joe) the father was NASTY !

Right Hamsamich,  this might be similar to Push coming to Shove being the catalyst of some of what appear to be Creatively brilliant minds taking the plunge.. While for others it's a luxury (they can even afford to pass up on), for some it's a saving grace that they NEED..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I bow to your knowlege on this.

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

They are very good!

Which makes me wonder about genetic propensity... Look at the Williams family of boys !  DeBarge, VanZandt males, Johnny and Edgar Winter, etc..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Don't forget The Boswell Sisters, The Andrews Sisters and especially The Mills Brothers and those two little Japanese sisters who lived in a clamshell and sang the "Mothra" theme song in those old Godzilla pictures.

I suppose there are studies,  and I'd need to reference these doing searches.. Percentages found in certain samplings might lend an answer to this. BUT, we still won't know if it's early family exposure (conditioning), or since one family member gets a foot in the door, the door is easier access for relatives... or if this is genetic predisposition, or some of all of the above. I only learned about the brilliance of ALL the Williams brothers within the past 2 years... What a gifted group of brothers they all are... IMHO None less talented than Andy

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

yes, I think i am talking about the same thing as you morgan, I'm just trying to get down and dirty with it and figure out the mechanisms and the hows and whys. maybe I'm off since I didn't read the whole post.

but maybe we are talking about the same thing.  for instance, yes virginia wolf may have been bi-polar, or have emotional problems, or whatever label you affix.  But, what is really going on?  Was she really bi-polar?  does bi-polar really exist the way psychologists think it does?  Did her mania have anything to do with her ability?  Did she have her ability before she was in the grips of her disorder?  I could go on and on.  

many psychologists think there must be a "flaw" in aa persons brain to cause the disorder eventually, but to activate the flaw, a stressor must be applied.  which is what seems to have happened to many of these great people.  but some of these people don't seem to have a disorder, even though they went thru much more pain then the average person?  yet some of them come out on top, and many of them have this common link of a hardships prior to acheiving success, or so it seems.

Vangogh however was only "ill" towards the later part of his life. Isn't that the case ?  This was seen tthru the change or contrasting styles of his artwork, likely towards the end he had a tumor that caused seizure activity, rage, etc.  In some cases I'm thinking what the mental health field considers to be conventionally "mentally ill",  are aspects also considered by many in the psychiatric field to be accompanied, or created by profound sensitivity. The drug and alcohol abuse later is usually just a means these people use to self-medicate which in time ends up being the double-edged sword that does these individuals in. so perhaps people go into a shell, and artistic expression DOES become the only language they feel comfortable reaching out from... Like EA Poe, Was initial "illness" a problem ?  or was it alcohol psychosis, and the dreams during nightmare of addiction that enabled him to write (resulting from Opiate and Alcohol addiction). Perhaps this is why there's a saying "fine link between brilliance and insanity",  Societies are often rigid, and punish those that don't conform.. Those that think OUTSIDE the box, have it tough, because so much IS absurd. Minds such as Bobby Fisher, who socially had serious issues (although stats show that there's no higher a link to the brilliant mind and mental illness, than ANY other category or sampling of human intelligence brackets...so dunno).  Similarly the Autistic Savante is quite developed in certain areas.  Areas those *testing* as extremely intelligent lack.  

Regarding JT,  he has an autobiography that tells of the desolation of mental illness, and his songs and life story.

James Taylor: Long Ago and Far Away (Paperback)
by Timothy White


It's just interesting that SO many of the prettiest ballads are about pain and suffering. The VAST majority are about pain in ALL genre's.  WHY ?

While I never read extensively about JT,  and there are likely no "tests" done,  that guy (despite lack of scholastic evidence) and so many others that did poorly in all other areas ARE geniuses without any doubt..  Seems strange that sometimes the finest minds are the most screwed up in the conventional sense

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

cadence would have a bit to do with it

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Cadence in the speech sense ?  Punctuated end ?  aka Death ?  as opposed to chordal resolution I take it..  :shock:   Which would be the emotions of separation anxiety.. or haven't I a clue about what you mean

or do you mean music is used for resolution and closure to end an event.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

hell babe maybe I havent a clue either, I have always looked at cadence to being the measuring of pace

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

This is interesting Vicki,  because I think in sentence phrasing, and musical composition sense of the term, it's closing progression (Chordal in music), or punctuation at the end in other compositional settings. Yet it has different meanings too come to think of it, so I'm lost now too, jogging, and gears for instance, it's a structure of measurement meaning something else  such as pace LOL

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

yep cadence is a word used a lot referring to horses especially in the show ring and in dressage. Dressage itself is dance. Cadence is the measurement of pace the regularity and beauty of movement. By definition a song, and most definately a beautiful ballad is normally sung at a measured pace

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Which is interesting because in the music composition sense of the term it's only used in a closing context isn't it ?  or has this changed since I studied theory ?  It's possible, because if-so I REALLY need to know this !!

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Some of you might not appreciate the funk genre of music.  Sad to admit it, but this is the first time I've ever seen Ernie Isley play guitar, THIS bassist is SMOKING, his dexterity playing slap and pop style is amazing, Don't know who this is, but he impresses me more than Bootsy Collins in the funk genre !.  Ernie was pretty good on guitar too,  Sorry I missed much of the Isley bros in the 70's.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vmoXgDDBb08


ADDED IN:

  I just read that Jimmy Hendrix played with the Isley Bros for awhile.  Anybody know if this is true ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

dunno dahlin, I have no idea if it is even a term used in music. Its a term I have used in other portions of my rather varied life and it kinda popped out...I have had no musical training Kappy, I have no doubt that shows.

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

It's a HUGE term in music actually,  closing chord progression, or close of a song... Such as the "perfect cadence" often used in hymns or numerous styles which is the V-1 cadence...

Here,  I should post something about cadence since Lonnie was kind enough to allow this thread to exist within the main body of Karaoke discussion, it should remain musically educational..

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Wikipedia

In music of the common practice period, cadences are divided into four types according to their harmonic progression: authentic, plagal, half, and deceptive. Typically, phrases end on authentic or half cadences, and the terms plagal and deceptive refer to motion that avoids or follows a phrase-ending cadence. Each cadence can be described using the Roman numeral system of naming triads (see chord):

Authentic cadence: V to I. The phrase perfect cadence is sometimes used as a synonym for authentic cadence, but can also have a more precise meaning depending on the chord voicing:
Perfect authentic cadence: (PAC) The chords are in root position; that is, the roots of both chords are in the bass, and the root of the final chord is in the highest voice; this is generally the strongest type of cadence
Imperfect authentic cadence: is best divided into 3 separate categories:
1. Root position IAC: similar to a PAC, but the highest voice is not the tonic ("do" or the root of the tonic chord).
2. Inverted IAC: similar to a PAC, but one or both chords must be inverted.
3. Leading tone IAC: the V chord is replaced with the viio chord (but the cadence still ends on I).
Half (or imperfect) cadence: any cadence ending on V, whether preceded by ii, IV, or I, or any other chord.
Phrygian half cadence: a half cadence from iv⁶ to V in minor, so named because the motion in the outer voices resembles the structure of the Phrygian mode.
Plagal cadence: IV to I, also known as the "Amen Cadence" because of its frequent appearance in hymns.
Deceptive (or interrupted) cadence: V to any chord except I (typically vi or VI). This is considered one of the weakest cadences because of the "hanging" (suspended) feel it invokes.
Cadences can also be classified by their rhythmic position. A masculine cadence occurs on a strong position, typically the downbeat of a measure. A feminine cadence occurs in a metrically weak position, for instance, after a long appoggiatura (see also feminine ending). Masculine cadences are considered stronger and are generally of greater structural significance. These words are sometimes avoided because of their sexist connotation, and the Society for Music Theory now endorses the "metrically accented" and "metrically unaccented cadence" in their guidelines for non-sexist writing. [1]

Likewise, cadences can be classified as either transient (a pause, like a comma in a sentence, which implies that the piece will go on after a brief lift in the voice) and terminal (more conclusive, like the period or other terminal punctuation, which implies that, at least for the time being, we are done). Most transient cadences are half cadences (which stop momentarily on a dominant chord), though IAC or deceptive cadences are also usually transient, as well as Phrygian cadences. Terminal cadences are usually PAC or sometimes plagal ("Amen") cadences.


[edit] Cadences in medieval polyphony
Medieval cadences are based upon dyads rather than chords.

A clausula is a dyadic or intervallic, rather than chordal or harmonic, cadence. It requires at least two voices in contrary motion. According to Carl Dahlhaus (1990), "as late at the 13th century the half step was experienced as a problematic interval not easily understood, as the irrational remainder between the perfect fourth and the ditone [ (4/3) / (9/8)2 = 256/243 ]." In a melodic half step, no "tendency was perceived of the lower tone toward the upper, or of the upper toward the lower. The second tone was not taken to be the 'goal' of the first. Instead, the half step was avoided in clausulas because it lacked clarity as an interval." Beginning in the 13th century cadences begin to require motion in one voice by half step and the other a whole step in contrary motion.


[edit] Classical cadential trill
In the Classical period, composers often drew out the authentic cadences at the ends of sections; the V part of the cadence might take a measure or two. During these two measures, the solo instrument (in a concerto) often played a trill on the supertonic. These were by far most frequent in Mozart's music, and although they were also found in early Romantic music, their use was restricted chiefly to piano concerti (and to a lesser extent, violin concerti) because they were most easily played and most effective on the piano and violin; the cadential trill and resolution would be generally followed by an orchestral coda. Because the music generally became louder and more dramatic in the music leading up to the cadence, they were used for climactic effect, and were often embellished by Romantic composers. Later on in the Romantic era, however, other dramatic virtuosic movements were often used to close sections instead.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

a simple yes or no would have done  :shock: I could have even swallowed a patronising pat on da head  LMAO
I need coffee now

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

After watching this *I* need coffee,  I grew up and played music during the Funk period of music. I always loved it.  One dance style that went with it was of course "break dancing", while it ended locally early 1980's locally, I suppose it still lives on in some locations. This is something that some of us could never, and WILL never dare attempt, whether it's gymnastics, mime, jazz, hip-hop, I don't know.. It's unlike any form of classical ballet, modern dance, or jazz I know of, FAR more dangerous too one would think...

If you have about 1/2 an hour, and enjoy watching AI,  take some time to treat yourself to THIS international competition !  Amazing what the human body can do (at least SOME humans, or ARE THEY  :shock: )   This is certainly admirable, I used to enjoy watching "the Lockers" and other Break dancing choreographed dancers

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Hq7SwTJChnI

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".