Karaoke Forums

Thank you, Flipper; "they don't have" or won't spend the money.
You know what? I'd rather keep the money in my pocket, also.
BUT I DON'T.

If you are going to a "BAR" that offers Karaoke entertainment .
Then you should expect to be a "buying/purchasing" customer
That is why the BAR is offering entertainment. It is for their customers. The term customer constitues a purchase of some kind.  No bar offers karaoke for people to just come in and sing.  Coming in to sing is the reason to spend money - PLAIN AND SIMPLE.  SIngers don't have to drink Alcohol ..but they should and need to PURCHSASE something..for themsleves, there friends , KJ, Barteneders. ETC

if you come in and buy 1 - $3 ice tea and sit there for 4 hours - You should be asked to leave.  If you can not afford to buy something --STAY HOME .. read a book , sing in your shower. - You wouldn't go to a restaurant and just order 1 drink so you can sit and watch the tv would you?...would you?

I am sorry, but I just can't subscribe to that kind of thinking.  Here are a few reasons:

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As a customer, there are times when I am simply not in the mood to drink, not hungry, etc.  I will go out, and I might only drink one drink that night (be it tea, beer, or whatever).  However, I will tip well, and if I am treated well, I will be back again, spending more money the next time.  If I am thrown out because I am not in the mood to drink that night, you can bet that I will not return, and many of my friends will shun the place based on how I was treated--guaranteed.
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As a business man.  Customer service is what it is all about.  You treat one person badly, and they will tell all their friends how crappy the service is and how they were unfairly treated (whether YOU think it is unfair or not, that tea drinker did, I assure you, and now all his friends think so, too.) This is a sure recipe to discourage people from frequenting your establishment.

However, if you treat all your customers as equals, no matter how much or how little they spend, then people will hear what great service is offered at your establishment and how everyone is treated wonderfully.  THIS will attract customers and build business.  What a concept, right?
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This reminds me of the story about a shabby looking man going to a nice car dealership and being turned away because he didn't look nice.  It turns out he was a millionaire and took his business elsewhere, because of the lack of service and judgmental attitude of the dealer.

So... from that perspective, is it worth it to throw out the guy who only ordered one glass of tea?  Sorry, but I don't think so.

Meep.

I basically agree with your general points about customer service.  BUT... I believe that the concern being voiced herein is in regard to those who display a PATTERN of not spending much which ends up in the coffers of the venue.  I don't spend the same amount every time I go out.

At least one poster herein has stated that he/she doesn't drink and that his/her money is not needed to support the local karoake.  And this behavior will continue so long as people make excuses for such folks!  Such thinking implies that it's okay THAT I AND OTHERS LIKE ME carry the weight for those who can't part with their money!

And, Meep, as a businessman your story reminds me of another.
One day a man came into a store to purchase a TV.  When the customer asked the price of a particular model, he was outraged at what he was quoted.

The customer went on to tell the proprietor that his competitor had the TV on sale for $75 less.  When the proprietor asked the customer why he wasn't buying the TV from the competitor, the customer explained that the competitor had none of those TV's in stock.

The proprietor immediately responded, "come back when I'm out of stock and I'll sell you the same TV for $100 less! (THERE'S ALWAYS SOMEONE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING FOR NOTHING)

If you are talking about me, then I think you mischaracterize what I say and do. Will I buy things I don't want? No. Will I feel guilty if I don't spend as much as someone who gets drunk at a bar? Absolutely not.

Everyplace I go, I buy things that they offer -- if they offer anything I want. If they don't, I don't buy it. All places I go ask me back and the waiters want to serve me because I tip well.

All this works out. If karaoke is profitable, it will be offered. I want it to be offered, so I tend to spend money there and support it. Do I feel guilty that I don't spend like a drunken sailor? Not a bit. I do a part, and if people like me are not desirable then presumably someone will find some way to discourage me from coming. But I doubt it -- everyone always asks me back and is glad to see me when I return.

The original post, to which I was referring, mentioned nothing about a pattern, and was specifically about one incident.



I wasn't answering to, nor making excuses for that post, and apparently maybe you are reacting a bit strongly and reading more into it than I am.  No judgment from me, either way.

 

..and such folks will continue to patronize venues where they are welcome and will certainly have friends that will join them, who DO spend money.  I have seen it happen that way numerous times, thus my stance that I will cater to all my customers regardless of how much or little they spend.  I also go out of my way to patronize business that feel this way, because whether I am a big spender or not, on any given visit, I can count on consistent, non-judgmental service.



Good point... If the customer that was written about in the original post had been as difficult as the one in your story, then perhaps your story would apply.  Here, I feel that it doesn't.

I guess my long history of customer service oriented thinking and training (Retail, DJ/KJ, Sound Tech, Technical Support, Technical Customer service, Tech support Team Lead, custom car electronics sales and service, etc...) have conditioned me to be open-minded and assume that if a customer is not being difficult and running off my other customers, they are a good customer.  

Hypothetical scenario... You run a shop selling expensive electronics.  Naturally you have customers who come in and buy things, but you also have customers who browse and leave without buying.  Do you kick the browsers out, because they haven't made a purchase, or do you treat them well, knowing that they will respect you and return when they are ready to purchase, and will tell others (who may be ready to purchase) how comfortable they are in your shop?  When you get right down to it, customer service is customer service, and the bar business really isn't all that different.

At this point, I have made my point and have nothing else to say.  If you disagree with me, I respect that, but you will not be able to change my mind.

Meep
I think  a business owner has the right if they choose to expect patrons sitting in there bar to spend money. I understand if you are with a GROUP of people spending money and this night you just want the 1 soda sure I can see that.
But if you are there alone  just taking up space without spending any money
(even if you tip well) I can understand  the bar manager asking you to leave.
Assuming you've been there for a long period of time.  With most discussions  there are many variables.  Sitting in any establishment without buying something is called loitering, and in most places NOT ALLOWED.

Customer service is one thing - But AGAIN the word customer constitutes a PURCHASE  of some kind.

Meep,

I am compelled to add that what you have included in your experiences, aside from KJing, are retail environments with, predominantly, high ticket sales, rather than businesses that were offering entertainment to attract (and service) customers who don't typically spend that much compared to those buying expensive electronics.

Imagine owning an ice cream parlor (which my brother does) with 10 seats (5 tables).  When those tables turn over 15 times a day you could accommodate 150 patrons.  What if 3 people (with no lives) show up EVERYDAY to spend the day watching others enjoying their purchases, and tip the help for providing them with water during their stay?

Now you might have as few as 3 tables, with 6 seats, turning over 15 times a day.  You have lost seating for 60 customers.  What impact would those lost seats have on your business?  Let's say that only 10 customers walk away that would have spent , in total, $40.  If you're not there to see the problem, how would you come to an understanding of why you business has fallen off $280 a week?

And how long would you be gracious about such a condition once you learned of it?  
While this or Jamkaraoke's previous post may not change you mind, please understand why someone might want you to run their electronics business but not their bar or ice cream parlor!

 

And I have found that by applying principles of more customer-oriented businesses to my KJ business, I retained good customers better, even if there might be a few out there that didn't drink much.  I am sorry for your customers that you don't feel that turning someone away is good service.



Sorry... even in a small a bar, we are looking at a higher scale of operation than a 10 seat ice cream parlor. If a bar only had 10 seats, then it wouldn't make economic sense to have a KJ there, would it?  

Another quibble is that your example assumes that the place runs at capacity from open to close.  If it does, that is great, and different rules might apply, there.

Unless the bar is at capacity, and there are people taking up seats and not buying anything, while people are waiting outside because the bar has reached capacity, I don't see your point.

And a bar owner has the right to run off customers, as well.  That doesn't mean the owner understands the concepts of customer service.  Understand that I have seen numerous bar owners run their business into the ground doing stupid things like that.



I believe that the OP said the gentleman bought a glass of tea, so a loitering charge would have been thrown out in court as a purchase, however small it was, had been made. Perhaps he would have bought something else, if left to his own means, before the night was up.  We'll never know.

What I envision happened in this instance was the owner approached the man, indicated that he needed to make an additional purchase, the man felt that he was being attacked, and chose not to allow someone to tell him what he "had to do" and chose to leave.  I have seen it happen.  Bar owners are notorious for being crappy customer service people and terrible diplomats.  In the same circumstances, I would have left, too.

Which approach is good business sense? You have your reasons for believing that your way is better, and I have my reasons for believing my way is better.  I feel that my approach is tried and true in the business world at large, and not practiced enough in bars, but my experience is that it works.  You do what works for you, but realize that there are other ways.

Where I come from; if a person is not a buying customer he has not place in the rotation. That is the 'law'. No question about it. FULL STOP.
BUT if you come as a group and sit as a group on one of the tables and order your drinks as a group, then all those in the group, regardless of who pays for the group orders, are considered paying costomers and have equal right in the rotation.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Meep,

My main point is that it takes an understanding of and keeping your eye on the bottom line to run any business.  And many businesses, like bars, often are nickle and dime operations.  And there is nothing preventing you, if you wanted to, from extrapolating my ice cream parlor numbers in my previous post to reflect the typical bar environment.  If paying customers leave, or don't stay at a bar because the rotation is too long, and it's too long because of 6 undercontributing singers, the lose is real.  

While it sounds like a pittance to some, experiencing a reduction in sales of $40 a day could make the difference between staying in and going out of business!  It's $1200 a month; $14,400 a year.  And in a bar environment, 6 undercontributing customers could easily be worth $40 a night.

Another important point I have made over and over again in varous threads is that I, as a customer, am the one who is complaining about freeloaders.  How about a little customer service, Meep, regarding my wishes?  I don't appreciate those who sing but spend little if any money at the shows I attend.  And I am not the only customer  who is aware of the people that consistently spend little, but take up space in the rotation.

Nobody has to spend "like a drunken" sailor, but who here thinks that the purchase of one (1) bottle of water over the course of an evening is a fair outlay for a night of entertainment, especially while others are spending much more?

Excellent point IMO. Recently I was shopping for a $4000 plasma tv. I went to numerous stores comparing prices including Circuit City and Best Buy. I went to about 4 different Best Buy stores including one that had Magnolia Home Theatre section. I probably made 15 to 20 trips total talking to lots of salespeople. I went to Best Buy the most. They were incredibly helpful, friendly, and willing to take a lot of time to talk about the different tv's, technologies, sales, and demonstrate too. Many of these people were extremely personable and we became almost friends. None of them ever scoffed when I appeared like "oh...that not paying guy is back". They were always consistently helpful. I ended up going with Best Buy that matched a great deal / price on a previous year model at Circuit City with the latest model at Best Buy. They threw in some other things. I was very impressed and satisfied and gave them glowing reviews when customer service called me back after a couple of weeks.

Also I might mention, I have a millionaire friend who always wears torn up jeans and used to always drive an old rusty Buick LeSabre for years and years. He finally started buying new Lexus models.

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The Truth Is Out There

Now I know you are referring to me.

I don't buy one bottle of water unless I stay less than an hour. I buy *at least* one soft drink per hour if they have non-caffeinated, or get *at least* one glass or bottle of water per hour. Usually more, since I am a large fellow and I try to stay well-hydrated.

But even if I did buy less -- and tip less -- than I do, I don't think good operations would have a problem with it. You don't get very far if you tick off customers. And quite frankly, unless you are in a student area or a city area with lots of poor young people, I don't think you would have a lot of problems with money from a steady clientele. Some will buy more, some less; but all in all, it balances out.

I am visiting friends and family in the great Northwest, and attended Lonnie's show tonight -- he is awesome -- and I felt very welcome even though I came alone and drank no alcohol. The waitress was sad to see me go, I think, as I believe I might have been one of her best tippers.

  I agree with you wholeheartedly.  Not only that, but even more dangerous to the show is if the non-drinker is one of your regular early starters. They help get the ball rolling.  

  The only caveat is if you have a group of low spenders taking up space in a BOOTH.  Then by all means:  Spend or move...

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Not clear, but it sounds like non-alcoholic-drinker discrimination, even though we pay jacked up prices for our ginger ales with a cherry in them, etc.  The folks that don't drink and perform should get special consideration: A. For being sober while singing and B.  For being sober while listening to the drunks mangle songs all night.

Well, nobody is asking you to come hear drunks sing...

(edit) Oh I see you're currently banned... must be that sunshine attitude of yours!

  Quantity doesn't = quality. Between companies that run 10 shows from 1 set of original discs and pay anybody off the street to run them, and bar owners who figure it's cheaper for them to buy a low rent karaoke setup and a basic Chartbuster package and pay anybody off the street to run it, the caliber of kj's here has really gone in the toilet.
  It's easier to find a good karaoke bar if there's only 10-20 to pick from. Here there are probably hundreds of them. And the few good ones have lines out to here of people waiting to sing.