Karaoke Forums

ANYTIME an adult competitor receives an 8, 9, or 10, this person better be damn good ranked against ALL !  Otherwise it's totally half-A$$ed, and if they really believe they are 9's and 10's after submitting 40 songs,  it borders on deluded  LOL . THERE'S alot of that over there..  :( .but hey,  not that there's anything wrong with that.  :(





I suppose I look at it this way MJK..   If I want to take up boxing at 50 and want to fight in the "Jerry's Geriatric big kids" class,  I suppose that'd be fitting, I belong there..  Assuming I win one round,  a few tell me how great I was for knocking grampa on his Keester, and I get a fat head, and start entering Golden Glove fights, and scream each time I get punched too hard, and become impervious to common sense, THAT is idiocy at it's finest..

THIS is how I perceive many sub'ing for Critique in SS...  I guess this is what bothers me.  The bar is quite high because many do know where they stand, many have dignity and are performing because THEY ARE GOOD...  unfortuneately MANY are average at best and I say unfortuneate because they think they are quite good. The real world knows where they stand. Also, some really suck and MANY in these categories don't know it, In contrast and as a result of them not knowing where they stand, they ARE in a sense foolish looking in the eyes of many by competing outside of their means.


It's the dishonesty, and inability for so many to see themselves as they really are that I think is wrong,  it's a lie for many of these people as well..  While I understand CCindy makes the statement, "EVERYBODY does the best they can",  conversely I feel "Nobody wants to appear like a fool in the public eye"... Fact is, some do... In the general performing arts.. the reality is... SOMETIMES doing the best you can ISN'T good enough..  Audiences can be cruel.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Truthfully, something does gnaw on me more than just a little when you see one submission that is damned near as perfect as perfect allows next to something that is just the opposite in all departments and they both get the same level of approbation.  It just is nuts is all!  In the final analysis: you just can't take every thing you see here entirely seriously.  It's very difficult for me understand a lot of this, but here's an analogy:  You ever go to a movie with some friends and when you leave the theater and you're all discussing the events that transpired on the screen, it seems that one or two of them saw a completely different movie than the one you just saw?  That's the best way I can summarize this bucket of suds!

PS: I changed my mind; I want Gilbert Gottfried to play me in the movie version of this thread.  You can write the music score Steven; Elfman backed out of the deal my agent proposed  (and you probably work cheaper--I heard you do a pretty good imitation Korngold score from time to time!).

I think if it were a "Live and Let Live" environment, meaning the true great singers could deal with their well deserved "7"s and John Doe Near Pitch-impaired accepted his politically driven or charitably given "10" without ending up competing against the great singers, AND NOBODY really cared that much about what the other people were doing because YOU CANT have such a heterogenious group competiting against one-another so regularly and tenaciously without MOST in an adult classification ending up looking like overgrown Sunday School kids competing for the gold-star.. Things would be better over there..


THis is why I think ax the current poll,  let those that need fantasyland have it, and HAVE a club for those that wish for the more serious and more realistic aspect of the Perfoming arts...  It's a type of respect for an area many near-pro's, has-beens, and MOST of the older trained musicians had instilled in them, and a mindset many performing and listening alike wish to preserve, and deserve to have preserved, to change such a system would in time lower the bar of quality entertainer. Artists deserve to be entertained by talent if THAT is their choice,  NOT pay money and end up in Politically Correct Opera-House where you get the cast of actors who are availabe that particular day, and whether they are talentless or the talented performers becomes just a daily a crap-shoot..  I think CCindy helped me straighten out what was bugging me,  which is why I like disagreement.. It's sort've like there's a time and a place for everything.. But all CAN NOT compete in the same league.. take sports.  triple A doesn't want special olympics members in their league,  it impedes ALL.  and this is the problem I perceive in SS. What's bothering me is the serious musicians That DO have a right to sing EVEN with a karaoke backup band have been alienated from SS...

So the battle goes on...  Fluffers don't want to have the realists telling them what they don't wish to hear,  and similarly the Realists that respect the Performing Arts old school ethics don't wish to be told they have no right to have their feelings respected .

Hence,  the SS problem

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Could that be the problem ?  Some of us feel that Singer's Showcase is a slap in the face to the realistic AND still respected performing arts ethical constructs because disrespect *IS* shown towards those of us that wish to preserve that which we have a right to honor ?  It's our love for the art, and we wish NOT to see performing bars lowered, and the arts cheapened ?  Arts we DO respect, and accept that JFF can exist, but not for ALL in ONE league.  The battle is realistic singers vs fantasy singers.. and we can't coexist


I think this might be what Cant stop singing was alluding to ???   Those of us that love music and respect competitive musicianship would like SOME respect being shown towards Singing as an art EVEN in a Karaoke forum... Karaoke IS just backup for aspiring singers !!!!! and GOOD singers alike.  There should be some respect for artistic ethics in an area that's an art.

Where is it stated ANY PLACE, that very good musicians DON'T belong in a Karaoke venue ?  It's not..  We have rights too !  It's ONLY the opinion of some that "real singers" don't belong in Karaoke..  Real Singers can't ALWAYS be on the road, and singing in bars.... Real Singers have children, other obligations, get older, get ill, etc.. But they CAN be and REMAIN real singers (musicians) with the advent of Karaoke !!!

OK Musicians,  time to get together and SUE for our rights  LMAO

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I hear where you're coming from Steve..You know that saying, you can't please all the people all the time and no matter what changes are implemented there will always be those that disagree.. The other day I posted a song for the first time in a few weeks as I feel it is my time to be away from here.. I thought maybe I'll post it under L, nope that might offend people that want to comment, hmm, maybe post it under C & that'll give  leeway to SOME people that don't have the best intentions with their critique or if I sub under J  it could mean as I coming from the written word of Listener X,  that folks subbing under J only want to hear fluff (his viewpoint, not mine).. then I thought well under J I could put in my description: you can listen without need to comment, critique if you feel like it or say hey I enjoyed this, thereby covering everyone.....I settled with just subbing the song, no explanation needed, just that I subbed cause I heard my favorite genre was the theme..

I can tell you from experience in talking to musicians, there is a common viewpoint among them that looks down their noses at karaoke, based on what they've seen in bars and they tell me they wouldn't participate in it. I think depending on one's musical background, it's all relative.. Remember the OJ Simpson trial where the black community said the police treated them differently than the white community?  Well, that's my analogy, different experiences, rings out the TRUTH according to environment.

Most of all, who has the almighty power to know the absolute truth  in who is an 8, 3 1/2, 9 5/8 rank??? .. The issue will remain open to debate as long as the Big Bang theory, who shot JFK and other mysteries of life.. .. Joyce

True Joyce,

  But despite WHAT anybody states about looking down their nose at Karaoke, such musicians are also using "Rhythm" machines, FX loops, and orchestration to help them as musicians. I push a key on my synth and I have a full orchestra and harmoniously playing string sections... This isn't pure. It's JUST like Karaoke... LONG before Karaoke and Guitaraoke, We had "Jam tapes" that were essentially the same thing for we instrumentalists, that Karaoke CAN be for even the BEST singers conservatory level that can't have a concert pianist with them at all times... THere are folks that take a black/white look at this... I think Karaoke is a blessing for we musicians *yes,  even though I've been replaced by a machine and recorded band*, it STILL is a fabulous tool for SERIOUS musicians too !

JMO..

The problem is compromise won't likely be reached in a site like SS unless both sides state their feelings on this, and recognise that WE musicians have rights, AS do those of you that are having fun and don't see music as anything formal..  It takes respect from BOTH sides for us to coexist with the party-singers harmoniously.  An understanding of what the problem is, and I'm learning as I type too... These are new concepts to me...  
Adults performing in front of large audiences in a venue where there were truly NO expectations of them is something TOTALLY foreign to me.  If THIS is acceptable today, that's good,  I NEED to learn to accept that... BUT, it doesn't mean I wish for the bar to be lowered on performance ethics either.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Interesting Steven....I've been trying to follow along on all your points of logic, but man you are SO verbose. I need to take a speed reading course just to get in an occasional post. Funny thing is I am somewhat similar in other forums - such as related to chasing.  Anyway you say a lot of good stuff. I guess I am trying to make up my mind on this whole issue.

Actually that is #1 - Is there an issue really? Or, are most people happy with the current ranking system and the way it is portrayed? Or, perhaps the issue is that you find it difficult or almost impossible to interpret something such as music in any other way than you have been trained...and that professionally, and so can't relate to the rest that are less serious? Or, perhaps everyone is here for different reasons and / or at different levels, and so as you were illustrating they really don't mesh together. In other words it doesn't make sense to mix business with pleasure. It doesn't make sense to mix those that are not that serious, and are just for fun versus those that are very serious and expect  proper critique and are prepared to receive it and deal with it, even if it is harsh. Maybe it's all of the above?

Anyway, I think that is part of the issue and why this topic runs on and why everyone has different answers and why no one can really come to a common conclusion. It's Ricky Nelson at the garden party where you simply can't please everyone.

Are there any solutions? Well I suppose if everyone enough agrees there is an issue to the level that a change needs to occur, then 'yes'. Some already seem to be at that junction, but others seem to be fine with the status quo.

I think what you are saying has merit, that there are those more serious or even professional level people that want something serious. There are also those that don't. Perhaps your idea of having two showcases for different groups has some merit.

Personally when I came here originally I thought that SS was a serious community with potentially harsh standards. In that regard it is encouraging to be able to post your stuff and get pseudo accurate portrayals of your work, which is something you can't get sitting alone in your room. Instead I found out SS is a mix format area as many have gone on to describe accurately. Mostly I think people don't want to hurt your feelings, and they want to be your friend, and they want you to listen to their music and socialize and comment on them. There is a place for that, but I also agree there is a place for what you describe. Many of us may want something more serious where we can critique others without them getting mad and causing a flame war, and where we can receive potentially negative comments as long as they were serious and accurate, and not done just to make a person mad, but instead to help them improve.

I agree in it's current mode the mixed environment doesn't really allow the serious to be serious. You can mix serious with JFF and it works for the JFF people, but you can't really put JFF people in a serious arena and get anything meaningful out. If there is enough following for this then it should change, and we should recommend that change to admin, take a poll, etc. Problem is while that may be great the serious people's quantities on this forum may be very small compared to the JFF voting public. So, whereas you may have a point there may never be an actual realistic solution to that which you perceive as the problem.

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The Truth Is Out There

I can understand how most musicians may feel that way. First off karaoke to the general public is what a group of people do when they go out for fun and they get drunk and the next morning they don't really remember what happened. In it's early days it got a real bad rap for bad, quirky, drunk people making fools of themselves on stage for the benefit of the audience to laugh at. I admit, that is sometimes somewhat entertaining. But as karaoke has grown and matured it has given a lot of people the opportunity to learn that they enjoy singing. It has also given them a place to perform and practise and improve. In this new wave there's starting to be a lot of decent singers at karaoke shows. There's still a lot of bad ones too. Most people at karaoke are marginal, and some are really bad, and there are some that are actually good. Occasionally I have the chance to have my socks blown off with some really good talent and I'm wondering why these people aren't in their own band, or haven't enter AI or Star Search.  When I talk to them many of these people are in bands, or have been on one of these programs.

Now I'm getting verbose, but I'm just saying that initial impression of any general musician or the general public that hasn't been exposed to much karaoke venues will think that way (that the singers suck, etc). But the more they are exposed to it experience it they realize that's not really the case. At least not always. There are always exceptions.

One advantage of karaoke (as you've mentioned) is you don't have to wait on or hassle with the band. You have tons of different styles of songs and choices to choose from to sing. As a singer that is cool, because it allows you to practice with lots of different material.

Now Charmin had a thread going awhile back about singing karaoke versus singing lead in a band and how that can be a problem because you learn to follow the music in karaoke as opposed to leading working with the music. I'm sure that's a bit of an issue, but probably one can learn to make adjustments for such things.

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The Truth Is Out There

Well thanks,  but in reality I'm learning once again that debating a perspective from the "Compassionate Conservative" viewpoint when you have ADHD really can have  it's drawbacks  :(   I waivered like crazy, and conceded my point... Superfluously obtuse obscurrent bloviation became my only friend  :giveup:

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

One inherent element we should be aware of is that there was singing before karaoke, and there lies the tale! ("The Adventures of Dr. Fu Manchu", page 23, Doubleday & Sons, March 1931)

But I do know Karaoke need not preclude SERIOUS musicianship !  It's a great tool for many who don't have the luxury of the presence of other musicians as often as they'd like.  It can be a positive tool for the aspiring PRO singer, and PRO singer alike in many genre's !

I think the stigma and barriers should come to an end regarding Karaoke as a means of practicing, or just helping solo musicians,  Those that claim "serious singer" won't be in a Karaoke site, That's hogwash, just listen to some of these singers. MANY were serious, ARE serious, and eventually the most serious end up needing more stability in lifestyle (will with little exception) many also had to get paying jobs  LMAO.  We can't all be "OUT" regardless of how good we were, are, etc. It's not easy, and in time not even that much fun for many.. But with Karaoke all have the option of doing their thing with greater frequency, less formality and  at home recorded backing which HAS existed for ages under other names for the most serious musicians..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Agreed.. Do you know Christina Aguilera started out with a karaoke tape as her audition? ( I don't know which song)

I also read several years ago that there were certain artists that didn't want their songs used at karaoke venues with the stigma of it lowering the quality of the song...Wow!!

My guess is MANY young singers started off with Karaoke.  Many that never otherwise would've been singing too.   There might even be more famous respected vocalists because of Karaoke down the road.. More will be exposed to singing, and more singers might very well raise the bar for quality..  DUnno.  It seems like a reasonable assumption

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Now Charmin had a thread going awhile back about singing karaoke versus singing lead in a band and how that can be a problem because you learn to follow the music in karaoke as opposed to leading working with the music. I'm sure that's a bit of an issue, but probably one can learn to make adjustments for such things.[/quote]

Good point.. Long before karaoke, I was playing keyboards and singing lead with my own written songs and it's a totally different ballgame.. both have their plusses and minuses

Perhaps, just a website for serious singers is needed. I realize you just said karaoke need not preclude serious membership, but for those with serious agendas and critical judging it's hard to mix them and have the result make sense.

I've realized this issue with SS for some time to the point that I wonder what value there is in even posting a song. Many / most people won't even look at your stuff unless you comment on theirs first. You basically have to go out and dig in the mine for awhile before you sit down to dinner. I suppose that is ok, and is to be expected - it is human nature. ! You can check right now and my latest 2 songs only have 3 comments each because I haven't spent much time commenting on other lately - case in point.  So anyway based on that and what Michael has said in the past of the whole thing being practically worthless I've thought, 'Ok, well maybe I should enter contests on the net to see how well I do. Maybe that will be a better more accurate way of judging how good my singing is'. (Given here 'how good' can be either how much people enjoy it, or how technically correct it is.) But then I remembered what he said about popularity contests, and after considering it....Yes Michael you are right. Online contests appear to often be a popularity contest where whoever can have the most popular myspace page with the most friends can have the most votes and win the competition.  Looks and the picture displayed also has a lot to do with it. So I suppose that really doesn't work either. So perhaps a person has to go to American Idol to get a real shake? No, (I'm too old for this route) we have other threads on how unfair and illegitimate that is as well. They pass up lots of good singers after they make their quota, and then they give passes on purpose for entertaining bad singers to keep the show interesting. So where does it all lead and is there really a pure place to do this type of thing - assuming one really wanted that?

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The Truth Is Out There

 :worship:  :worship:  :worship:  :worship:  :worship:  :worship:  :worship:  :worship:  :worship:


If I hadn't posed this ages ago, and again over and over again,  I'd call you a genius Bill  :handshake:  :hi5:  :hug:  :hug:




This is EXACTLY how I feel.   THAT IS THE PROBLEM...  I think the current polls are just a NYC taxi tour that will solve nothing..  The two different mindsets must be separated...   Let the current group have SS as a fantasy venue,  it serves THEIR purpose... Let those that want TRUE Critique have a site of their own !   I've posed this all along.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I think I've become BIGDOG  LOL

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Well I have been behind in most of these threads and just catching up.  LMAO. Gosh it take a long time to read all that. No Tv for me at night, only another thread at this rate.

And no, I'd say YOU  :wave: are the genius Steven. All along deep down inside you knew it was tainted.

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The Truth Is Out There

Only if now you start calling yourself a genius and reminding everybody about it, and then begin starting threads through different vehicles to discuss it.  :argue:

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The Truth Is Out There

Bill, in a nutshell, what we are postulating incorporating here is something similar to the Mason-Dixon Line.  Folks at home will have to paint a stripe (masking tape is allowable) down the center of their monitors to participate in the first, seminal steps of this historic event.  There ya go!