Karaoke Forums

I understand exactly what you are saying.   You DO however raise another point that concerns me though (as mentioned earlier).  I DO think there are those (not you) that are disturbed by musicians that wish to be intense in the Showcase.  I really wish those that WERE bothered by seeing such intensity would state this.  NOT for purposes of confrontation at all, but IF this is a real condition that exists it must at some point be addressed whether spoken or unspoken.  If enough feel that those of us that are intense SHOULD in fact be elsewhere, I believe this COULD be respected !  I might be very wrong here Charmin, but I DO feel that there are others (not you) that are made to feel uncomfortable by :intense: exchange within the showcase.  I really wish people that feel this way would state this ONLY because the current polls aren't a solution if this in fact is THE crux of the problem in the showcase..   I sense it is.  *as mentioned, there are those that apologise for others comments (requested comments) prior to their own comment on another individuals sub'd song*

Just my concern regarding this.  I KNOW that intensity does bother some even when it doesn't come their way (at least directly), there seems to be some fallout from just viewing it.  Do you think this is accurate ?  Whether it should or shouldn't matter is moot because it still creates tension and becomes a source of ongoing friction

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Nothing...... at all..... wrong with those who want to be "very intense". (or, as I put it, "too serious")  

Maybe I phrased that wrong to begin with. Maybe heck, maybe my opinions are partly forming as I read & type & think.  :drunk:

Just as I think those who hate the fluff should lay off the fluffers who sub for fun only, I also think those JFF people should lay off anyone who is here on a more intense note. (I'll use your word...)

That's what I meant... there SHOULD be room for ALL of us here. Don't you think?

It just goes back to- HOW to determine who is here on a fun level, who on a more intense level? A person would THINK that the pushing the "critique" button answers that question. But, well, yeah... most of us agree that there is a VERY THIN line between most of the JFF and C comments in SS.

And I know what you mean, I have seen it aplenty. It is pretty much a popularity contest in there sometimes. If you cross someone (by cross I mean, dare to point out flaws in their singing, and/or ridicule them in the forums at all) then you take the chance of half of SS coming down on your head.  So, most people being singers also... why would they chance the wrath of so many, when they want comments too? Monkey see-monkey do is a phrase that all too often reminds me of what goes on in there. THAT is why I do NOT let myself take it too seriously. It would drive me batty.

Personal example: Just being honest. I have alot of friends here. I have made a few enemies but actually most of the ones I've made don't hang out here any more. I have a personality that gets along with most ( i said most, haha) people in the forums. I don't critique, rarely ever. Only very seldomely do I feel comfie enough to offer something I may hear as an opinion to someone. (i mean negative feedback).
And, in turn, I get reasonably good (often much better than I deserve) comments. And I generally get quite  a few. Not the most, but certainly not the least.

So, this has led me to wonder.... What would happen if I did an about face? If I quit chatting to people, didn't try to befriend anyone... and poured out my HONEST opinion on every C sub in there..... what would my status be as a singer? I wouldn't be very popular, I'm sure, if I started giving true critiques. Not that I lie- I don't consider that I do- but nor do I offer too much.  But would people start telling me when I subbed a really bad song? Would they ignore me? Would I not get many listens any more?

Not that I would do this. I prefer to be left in the dark about all that. Life at SS is fine for me how it is. Yes, things irritate me at times... I hate all the bickering. I have enough conflict in REAL life that it would be nice if my one and only fun hang out didn't have it as well. But, it always will.

So, in answer to your question (good lord, I'm terrible about getting off track)... Yes, I do see the friction when someone who sees "critique me" takes the time to critique a sub, then following commenters do the "don't listen to that person, you did great, who do they think they are anyhow?".... NOT to be rude to anyone, but yes, it's seen alot. It's people sticking up for friends.

I have never jumped on that bandwagon. Not unless there was a game being played of who can out-do who with leaving snide comments. (sniping runs rampant sometimes too...) I don't like to see people attacked and things said to hurt feelings, and have it be said under disguise of a "critique". That is tacky. But if a pack jumps on a newbie (or a brave old timer) for daring to tell someone they made singing errors, I'm not gonna join the pack. At times, I've thought "Oh my gosh, that person was SO dead on in their critique... he just opened the door to that person improving... and that person's so-called friends just slammed it shut".

I dunno Steven. It's all such a dumb joke... we could drive P.hill insane with requests to change this and that. If one problem gets erased, new ones will pop up. Remove the numbers, people will bellow more loudly about the "words" used. Remove the right to comment at ALL... who in the HELL is gonna want to be there? Not many. You know what would happen then? These forums would be over run with threads talking about subs.

I did state that I think the ranking should go, because it causes so much bickering. But you know (exercising my female right) I've changed my mind. There are those who like the numbers, let them keep the right to get them. It's not hurting me, nor you, nor anyone else. Nor are the comments. I mean... do YOU believe everything you read and every number you see?  :no:  Me neither. Nor most other people. Someone may look to be a perfect 10, but we all HEAR what they sound like. We may wonder WHY they have that perfect 10, but it doesn't MAKE the performance one just cause the number is on the page. And that goes both ways, I've heard subs  I honestly thought could be on radio, I'd buy the cd... and it has a very undesirable number on it. Doesn't make me think any less of the performance, not one iota.

*Steven, I get a bit too chatty when I'm tired. I fight sleep like an infant.  LMAO  I prolly should get to bed, 6 am comes early here in Oregon:)

.

Which is why (as a few others have stated) I too believe the problem to be individuals,  and not current site layout.  But whatever majority feels is best, is best I suppose.

-JMO

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I always remember the closing line of the movie "Babe" when the farmer told Babe at the end of the show: "That's good enough."  I was fortunate to have been given the opportunity to study piano starting at age 7 (my mom was the prime mover musically).  However, when they divorced,  I was raised by my stepfather, who while NOT at all musically inclined himself, did support me financially with the lessons and piano tunings, a new piano, music--whatever I needed to study.  While I practiced he sat in the kitchen reading "The Philadelphia Daily News".  I always knew I did good when I heard the exceedingly rare "That was really nice Michael" from the kitchen.   And that was that!  That's as much praise as I ever received at home.  But he usually was right, he could tell when I was putting extra effort into a piece.  

I still say the main objective in all the arts is foremost to entertain, or, on the other end of the spectrum, make you think.  There's not much of a gray area between those two criterions.  You just hope to please your audience, whomever they may be.

Not the arts IMHO. The PERFORMING arts, or artforms put on DISPLAY.  The arts can have just a selfish objective, one of pleasure, leisure, and being therapeutic for the participant only, in such a case it's legit that the experience is entirely selfish.  

PERFORMING art, or display of art hasn't a grey area however, when you put on a show, it SHOULD be your best effort because it's YOU judged as GOOD or BAD.  It's your reputation (obvious few in SS care). I NEVER go to a show to see the performers enjoying themselves or for THEIR enjoyment.  I take time and become an audience member for *my own* selfish reasons too, *I* want to be entertained. What I do NOT want to hear, or see is romper-room, babies running around in nursery school, or just hacks that can't perform. Similarly, when I get on stage, I WON'T make a total @$$ out've myself.  Some obviously don't care about doing that however, if they think out've MANY MANY listeners on the internet most aren't judging their ability they are dead wrong.  *Fantasy* doesn't extend outside of the Singers Showcase... Participants are still being viewed by a critical audience like it or not. The good performers are known and discussed.  Similarly MANY in SS are admired about as much as the 70 year old flabby body wearing spandex or the VERY out of shape person on the beach in a scanty bikini.  Like it or not, many are perceived as fools.  I would always put up a disclaimer prior to entering such a site

"I can't sing,  and I KNOW I can't sing,  I'm here for fun.  Rather than send this to just a few of my friends, It's easier to post this sub once and have my friends comment, and listen in this venue. If you feel you can give me non-cynically driven tips on how to improve, I'd appreciate it.  If you don't like what you hear, be forewarned, I realise I am not a singer, I want to share with my friends ONLY.."


Meaning,  Singer's Showcase being a fun venue IS NOT a disclaimer that your audience isn't a harsh judgmental audience. People LIKE hearing GOOD performances..  As I've stated, for that reason what I can't do well, I do behind closed doors, or in a more private setting.  The rule is

learn how to do something----->practice, practice, practice------>perform when polished..

Few seem to understand this.  I don't know why that is.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

One of my favorite quotes is by pianist/composer Oscar Levant (probably the greatest interpreter of Gershwin):

"If it weren't for George Gershwin, I probably would have been a very good mediocre piano player."  

Don't ask why I think that quote is relevant here, but I somehow I think it is!

It applies.  Levant did Rhapsody in Blue, and was (at least up until around 1970 or-so) like an alter-ego of Gershwins (who raised the bar on piano interest and skill according to many). Levant was a HARD driven pianist who was smacked in public and humiliated (by his father) who insisted the young'uns were brutally classically trained.  IF it weren't for levants OWN personal issues, his goal would've been, or he might've surpassed Gershwin..  


It's a dream of ALL musicians (as it is sports competitors) to be THE BEST, and settle for nothing less.  This means we MUST be tough on ourselves, and in turn expect (or know) our audiences will be tough on us as well !

Difference in my outlook (in such a case) MJK,  is that when *I* have a student who I feel doesn't have much of a chance as being a top-notch musician (and the greatest honor has been THOSE students that are now better than I ever was, after they took it to the next step, one I couldn't for also emotional reasons.  There are now two such students ), those that I feel have little chance, I REALLY try to make things *FUN* for them so they always have music to love and fall back on as a form of beauty... Like all else,  as babies we were coaxed into the craft because it appeared interesting, and fun... but ike sports... some just lack hand eye coordination, but still might enjoy flag football even though we have NO chance of ever competing...  Other however ARE competitors with the knack and drive to enter into the grueling area of Performing Arts..  Some of us fell out of that area and landed flat on our faces do to "real world" stuff...

A person MUST be tough and be able to integrate a necessary amount of real and fantasy to survive at all in the Performing Arts...  Levant had a critical musical background...  I can identify because I too was hit, and punished by instructors when young.. (not to mention Mr Willifords breath that could choke a horse). I was raised and trained to be a competitor, and professional musician.  The standards, ethics, mindset, and even pose, performer/audience psychology and codes of the road have been heavily instilled in me.

I couldn't hang in it however for a LONG duration.  I wasn't a tough enough person to take it to the final step, BUT I blame nobody for this, I gave up ALOT of what could've been to pursue the area, and I couldn't be famous.  So I now fall back on music as a love, but this doesn't change what I know to be real.. What's real means just that..  Fantasy is an illusion.  In my mind,  It would take AN AWFUL LOT of work, for me to be qualified to perform in Singer's Showcase, and practicing to polish THAT hard isn't fun for me with other obligations, and being my age, I don't want to be subjected to any more scrutiny than I subject myself to constantly. Reason being,  there's pride involved, and the overall audience is hostile. Adapting MY mindset doesn't change any of that.

I guess moral of the story in MY mind.. Is that when a person asks for a Critique..

The are asking for the critical audience to "let them have it", meaning "tell me to my face, what you are saying behind my back", and I do believe they should have that right, BUT in turn they MUST be able to "take it".  They owe that respect to their critical audience, otherwise they are "babies" "sore sports", etc

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I have read in description so many times about maladies in recording, I thought it was a world wide epidemic..Being the rascal I am, I subbed Hurt So Good with a cold and liked the way it turned out better than recording it stuff free..The most important to remember is wipe that mic off when recording with a cold ..

As for critique.. it's like going to the dentist.. you think, you've taken good care of your teeth and then upon examining, the dentist finds a cavity or 2...

Cantstopsinging. I agree 100%...

If you go to the dentist, there's a very good chance you might not like what you are told !   Same with Critique, but does this mean what you are being told is wrong ?  Does it also mean MOST aren't talking about your rotted out teeth behind your back ? and paying fluffy compliments to your face while cringing underneath the shell ?

As I stated, sometimes when people dislike us, as when they like us a lot and care to help us, the stuff comes out we don't like...

ie...  "Damn, you have REALLY bad breath"

Would I like hearing this ?  HELL NO...   SHould I know this ?  Hell yes !


What bothers me about the whole Critique stuff going on, is that if a person asks me if they have decay, and it's obvious to me and most telling them "you are fine" that this is a lie, I feel I reserve the right to tell them what they have a right to know.  The fact that they don't like what they hear, should not negate honesty in our society.  As I see it, for this very reason, Singer's Showcase believes it has the right to redefine the term "critique" but for what purpose ?  To take a term with an already real definition and try to make it malleable to suit a dishonest environment.  Hence the honest and those stating their wishes lose out.  

I'd MUCH rather see a term that doesn't work eliminated, and NOT suited to fit a lie. These are adults in Singer's Showcase,  not 4 year old kids..  Let them LEARN that if they can't take the "C",  get out've the category !!!

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

As a person whose dental X-rays formerly looked like a diorama of Carlsbad Caverns I can relate!  You know Steven you mentioned something that I had long forgotten...I can remember two of piano teachers I had who were always comparing playing the instrument to athletics...I can't remember how many times I heard that (of course, many musicians are famous for being die-hard sports fans--perhaps a bond there of sorts?)

Brutal competition is brutal competition..  Pavarotti is  (well he was) also an athlete,  Ballet Dancers are athletes, etc..  A LOT of the rock musicians that can hang in are athletic people..  There's a very close link if not in physical makeup, mindset !    It's NOT easy to be a competitor.  You need to know how to handle getting beat up.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Mick Jagger and Madonna are 2 examples of performers with an athletic background ( in my opinion they are both lousy singers though) Both Leos too

You know I went in for x-rays after 2 years and the dentist never called to tell me if I had cavities.. now I am thinking he just doesn't care or is an incompetent dentist!! (He's rather advanced in age and doesn't have modern software or whatever they use nowadays to scan your xrays to give you instant results)  I am thinking even though I take good care of my teeth, being the sweetmonger I am, how could there be no cavities?  Hence the analogy of critique being not having faith in the critiquer! All I can do is take care of my teeth the best I can.. Same for the singing.. On initial playback before mixing, I listen a cappella for off sounds ( when I am not in a hurry-yikes)  On another site I was given a 5 star ( highest rating) on a song that I realized afterwards I was flat on 3/4 of the way through the song.. and yet 2 people downloaded it as a favorite of theirs so I don't remove the song.. but boy do I wince at the thought of it...

Right,   A person who loves sports as well as arts need not be a very competitive or tough person.  The differences between "serious" and JFF are in the ideology of "Performing" an "art" for a "vast audience", in a competitive setting.  

Those that are saying Singer's Showcase isn't serious ARE NOT going to change the opinions of MANY listening to them AND regarding some of the current entrants, many are questioning "Don't you have more dignity ?  If you were on SNL doing a parody on horrid singers you would be funny, but you are competing with that voice of yours"

This is what MANY are saying about some sub'ing in "C" that really think they are "9" ranks.  (Even 10)    It reflects on all who paricipate in an adult setting.

"My God,  Don't you have more self-awareness, and dignity to know that something like that isn't meant to be performed for potentially ALL to hear ? (Of course you have the right to have fun, and do whatever you please) but you are making a fool out've yourself in lieu of the fact that those of us in the real world watching you (whether we state this or not), think some of you sound HORRIBLE, which is fine. Yeah, we know, it's great you are having fun but the sad part is you APPEAR to believe you ARE a '9' or "10" rank singer and THAT is what makes you even more pathetic than Kaplan who obviously doesn't care that we know he can't have a life because he LIVES in KS typing 4000 posts a year. Doesn't ANYBODY care how they appear in public anymore ?  What's happening to our world ? Is everyone oblivious to what's real ?  Are this many people clueless ?"



I'm sorry,  I can't agree with you here at all.  Performing on stage (going out've ones way to display their work to be viewed) is NOT the same as the performer doing everyday tasks (going shopping for groceries).  The performer in the grocery store has the right to be a human, those going to see the performer ON STAGE however have very different expectations, they don't want to see the star without their makeup, or acting skill. Many listening to you in SS don't care that you are a human,  they are going to hear HOW YOU SING.  The difference is in the ideology of the "PERFORMER"or- one who makes a public presentation (in this sense). In such a case there ARE standards that many outside expect you to uphold. Similarly I don't go running around outside with my pants around my ankles..  If you submit in SS you are a "PERFORMER", I think this is where many don't wish to concur. Singers Showcase IS NOT JUST Karaoke, NOR is it at home (private) and quaint, you are DISPLAYING YOUR ABILITY and lackof it for the world to determine how you sound. Many listeners DO NOT CARE that -,  they are honing into YOUR SINGING ability. When you perform you are judged on your performance.  It's a position a person puts themselves in, and there are tacit rules that go with it like it or not.  A surgeon, and pilot are humans, and humans error.. THEY JUST BETTER NOT WHEN WORKING ON YOU OR TRANSPORTING YOU... You expect MORE !  The performer is expected to be at their best when they have the option of not submitting until the work is at it's best (according to many)

I'm not saying "art" should be subject to these rules,  I believe the Performing Artist IS

There ARE standards whether many dislike it or not is moot.  How *I* feel about all this is also moot.  The only reason I feel this way is because I believe this to be real world expection of most performing, WE ARE ALL judged when we present any of our effort to possible scrutiny !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

But ya see, Steve...... - .... the name of the site is Karaoke Scene.  And ...... Karaoke is for the NON PROFESSIONAL.  All you say .... is very very true for those that are serious musicians ...... a SERIOUS musician, whether using instuments or their voices .. are taught .... practice, practice, practice------>perform when polished..  

But for MOST of us here.... we are very far removed from that world.  YES.... we have some mighty fine and talented singers around here, there is NO DOUBT about that ...... BUT..... you are preaching the words that were preached to you when you were seriously working at become a professional musician. ..... This is not what KARAOKE is about.  Karaoke is about those of us ... who absolutely LOVE music, love to sing .... (and some even dance!!! ) ... but, we know we aren't professionals ...... nor will we ever be (some of the very talented still hope, but at this moment, they aren't).  And...... I have to say ...  that I truly do believe that when someone records a song .... they do THEIR best.  With the exception of those that love "negative attention" ...... or those that are just out for a crazy night and don't give a !%%% what they sound like .... MOST really do give it THEIR all.  In some cases .... that surely isn't always a "great sound" , and I think even they know that.  But..... still ....... they did their BEST.  And in Karaoke ... its getting up and singing .... having some fun ..... feeling special ..... and hanging out with your friends.  In all honesty ..... If you've been to KARAOKE, it truly is THAT.  Yes.... really talented people sing at karaoke.... and wow crowds.... but the majority of us that sing karaoke are low-average to good singers.  Karaoke lets us still do what we love and have fun doing ..... without the pressure of having to be "polished" like a pro.  

I think that your background, your training, your 'take' on quality performance is admirable ..... but its not a great "handshake" with the way in which most think about and approach Karaoke.  

On the ranking scale.... I am somewhere between a 5 and 7, pretty consistently.  That isn't "polished" as you talk about .... but it sure is my BEST ... in most cases.  I don't sub the stuff that I've done poorly .... I sub the stuff I think I did that reflects my "personal best" or at least close.... and I think that is what MOST that sub here do.  THEIR best.  And sometimes, that isn't, to a trained ear, too good at all.  But ... THAT'S KARAOKE!!

I hope that helps clarify things a little better about the nature of Karaoke ..... vs .....  the professionally trained, or 'serious" singer that your philosophy fits.

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[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

There is nothing wrong with a 5-7 doing the best they can in a performance assuming they know and accept the fact that they ARE a 5-7.  Most in SS are a 2-8 average after sub'ing perhaps 10 songs, arguably ALL are.  5-7 is VERY good in real.  THat's high average singer.. I would be about a 3-5,  for that reason I won't make a mockery of myself. What's the point ?  I think believing that because it's "Karaoke" people don't judge ability is doing yourself an injustice,  MANY listening are listening to see how well a person sings a song they like.  They couldn't care less about Karaoke.  NOT all the listen belong to the sites and are friends of the person submitting. YES, in a bar the activity is Karaoke,  in front of a large audience it's  "OMG,  I'd never make myself look like that in front of an audience this big" if I knew differently, BUT some don't care,  I suppose that can make it fun.






Once again I respectfully disagree with both yourself, Kelley and ALL others here CCindy regarding DISCLAIMER:  The fact that this is a Karaoke site, and the fact that Singer's Showcase is part of a Karaoke Site means most listeners aren't judging YOUR singing ability.  Why do people click on a song ? Either because they like the song, OR they want to hear how a person is singing it. IN FEW cases are they going to give a TOTALLY impartial friendly visit. Reality is, If I want to talk to you, I'll go to Paltalk with you, or call you on the phone.. I go into SS NOT to hear songs alone,  I can get SONGS numerous other places. I go to hear YOU FOLKS sing songs, Karaoke is your backup only.. Karaoke Site precludes "singing quality" how ?  WHAT makes you think MANY of those that don't belong, and go to listen to the sites such as SS, K-SOLO, STTW, and ALL other sites go for Karaoke ? I never did.  I wanted to hear the quality of singing.  I go to hear HOW a person does  filling in for the actual original on songs. MANY others do as well.. I go to hear a performance..Sure "performing" can be fun, but people should at least be aware that THEY ARE being judged by MANY..  some don't care that others are laughing at how bad they are (this is fine assuming they really do not care, but from the way most that claim they want feedback react when they receive the SLIGHTEST amount of criticism, I tend to doubt few care what others think, which means MOST are being lied to of which MANY believe the lies... THIS is what I find to be sad).. OTHERS of course think they are "10", and they receive the hardest laugh.  If they don't care, that's up to them.. I just don't like to see sweet people have their heads buried in the sand..I don't like to see anybody made into anyone elses fool.. There *IS* backtalk in a competitive atmosphere.. Sure it's fun for some..and if they don't care how they are perceived that's fine. Karaoke is only your backup band. "JUST Karaoke" is the activity, performing for ALL to hear brings it to a VERY different level.  YOU are the lead singer.. If I want to go to a place for Karaoke, I go for "Karaoke",  even-so, many stink and in a large crowd get boo'd at times (right or wrong),  here you will NEVER hear boo'ing because it's so easy for people to hid themselves.. Instead there is often exchange "My God,  did you hear THAT hack job" ?  I don't go to your submission to hear "Karaoke",  I go to hear "CINDY" sing.[/quote]

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

How about in the school system Cindy ?   They don't teach people  the importance of the "presentation" anymore during ANY public performance ?  Assuming such,  do you really believe all this goes down the toilet for the hour they are at the bar ?  I don't,  because people still judge ability. It's conditioned in most of us.

If people want to compete as beginners KNOWING they aren't too good, if they want to get their feet wet performing JUST to see what it's like to be on stage, I think that's fine.  There's no law against it, and it IS fun once in awhile.  Some do have a realistic grasp that they aren't too good, and that's fine.. Problem is MANY in SS are clinging so hard to fantasy of 10... I honestly think MANY believe they average 8-10 after having 100 subs... It's not good to lose touch of where you stand, and who you are when performing.. If I say,  "Hello,  I really suck, but you asked for it, and my self deprecating humor is going to be charitable today" and I enter something, OK,  but if I do it day after day competing with the REALLY good singers clinging onto a "9" as though I really have earned it, THAT's pathetic Cindy.. I suppose that's what I'm saying.. On one hand people say "SS is just for fun" but if so WHY the heck do people cling to their HIGH rank like a dog who's bone is about to be stolen ? It's totally unrealistic and a great means of looking like a fool.. Performers SHOULD be grounded in who they are, where they stand, and the level of their ability EVEN in a social setting.  THAT is what gains respect in competition.. GOOD sportsmanship.  There's a paucity of that in SS..

Too many are hung up competing on "pro" level..  If they run with the bigdogs... They will be treated as one.. This aside, people STILL judge

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Might I add that some of us have been professional and by that I mean working in bands, songwriting and/or being paid professionally, at one time or another, taking ourselves seriously  but didn't make it to the radio, VH-1, etc... I certainly carry over the ethic that I worked with the whole time of trying to make it in the music business that I want to do the best I am capable of and because karaoke is now my choice of musical expression ( it beats me waiting on flaky band members) I want to present the best to my audience.  I have read where many say they are just here for fun, which is fine, I agree with the fun part but I have always been serious about music and for me, what I bring to the public needs to sound as top quality as I can get it. I am learning about mixing every day and have received some great advice which has helped me to improve but I always consider the SOURCE of that advice as well

Cantstopsinging, I think rather than put a disclaimer in my past statements I should qualify things... People can  and should compete and perform on different levels.. It's OK to be a beginner,  It's OK to want to see what it feels like to be onstage. BUT I don't feel in a competition it's EVER wise to lose site of where you actually stand in an art and sport.  If I get up to the microphone once with a disclaimer "Just to say hello, and my humor is charitable today".. OK, I have that right.. But if I become obsessed with hanging onto something I'm not... "a 9 or 10", and have NO realistic concept of how I appear to others, THIS is a very foolish scenerio, and this is where others laugh at the person... Even the 4's can at times compete,  but when they fight with 10's to be 10's, they become total fools in the eyes of most... that aside, even the 4's should do the best they can UNLESS they are trying to turn out comedy, but even-so THAT should be done well...  Personally, I'd never compete or get up onstage assuming I weren't at least a 7 and as polished as I could be.. I never would as a "4",  but that's just me I suppose...  I think what's important is that people know where they stand, and be somewhat grounded as performers... and stay HUMBLE...  This is what gains respect.. "good sportsmanship in competition"

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Just what is one being ranked against is what I wonder?  Singers here? The professionals? Some drunk guy I heard last week sing at a bar? Etc.