Karaoke Forums

My opinion is: When submitting songs under the "C" category (critiques and ranking requested) it would be easier for the listener/critiquer to make helpful suggestions if the performer doesn't qualify their submissions with claims such as:
"I have a really sore throat, cold, flu, beri-beri; the backing is horrible and I get messed up at several points; this key is too high for me; this not my best job, but here it is anyway; the mix is lousy but try to overlook it; I'm pitchy and all over the place (which means you know what your weak area is and don't need a critique anway), etc. etc."

What works best (if you know or suspect there are problematic areas in your song) is to perhaps point out what to look for so the listener can focus on those areas.   If your voice is affected by illness, or the submission is beset by other calamities, etc., it makes critiquing someone honestly and with conviction virtually impossible!  

I'd like to hear from others on their views on this.  How do you feel when critiquing/ranking in these types of situations?  

And that's tonight's editorial!  

(oh no.. this is gonna be a big one..) Sorry in advance if I bore you:)

I'm sitting straddle of the fence on this one Michael..... and I'll admit to a little bit of "guilty" too. I've said things before like that, but NOT on a sub that was for "critique". I sub JFF, so if I would sub a song that had some issues I knew of, I'd say "yeah, I know... blah, blah, blah...but thanks for listening to me"

NEVER for any other reason than .... I don't want others to think I believe all the fluff (when I get those fluffy "this was perfect" comments). I was just letting people know ahead of time that I knew it had some issues.  And I have pointed out specific things, like a phrase I think I'm missing each time I sang it throughout the song... and ask for comments on that. Or asked if my vocal was too loud, or if my echo was too much.

THEN... a dear friend of mine ... told me very bluntly that it made it look like people were "fishing for grander comments" when they made disclaimers like that.  LOL  LMAO

So, since then, I really try not to say anything like that. It's just that, I hear people claim that they work VERY hard on a song before they sub it, and they do takes & retakes till they get it as perfect as they can. I don't. I sing it through, and if I'm not too familiar with it, I may sing it again.  And yes, I've sang one more than that before too... as I become familiar with it. Many many times a song I sub, you all are hearing my first go-round of it.  I spend more time on trying to get the right effects and vocal to music volumes than I do singing..... SO..... I don't want people thinking that I truly believe my sub is perfect. Cause I don't.

Now, to the other side of it. (yeah, that was only about half of my opinion, hahaha)

After having it pointed out that it looks like your "fishing" when you put up disclaimers of any kind, I started looking at other people's song descriptions differently. It seems SO many people say "this is a one take".... and I always wonder WHY they feel the need to say that? So people will say "Wow" more energetically? (gosh, I'm starting to sound like a big a-hole... please don't take this wrong) I see alot of subs with:



Those types of things. It does make me wonder if... A: They are being honest B: They are VERY insecure in their ability & feel the need to "hide" behind excuses C: They're fishing.

I mean, maybe they DO have Beri-Beri (what the heck IS that anyhow?)

I can see why some people would say something like "I have a bit of a cold, so excuse the raspy throat"..... I've done that aplenty, cause I ALWAYS have a raspy throat. (and I'm trying to make you all think my real & natural voice is crystal clear)
 (kidding)

Then again..... When I see a sub with nothing but "here's my newest recording.... ENJOY"...... You almost get the feeling that person thinks they're perfect, and here only to entertain us all by blessing us with a sub.

I dunno.... maybe I shoulda just shut up?

Okay, to answer your original question, cause I don't think I have yet:)
I used to be active on a site where you sub only originals. (garageband) and we did EXACTLY as you said above... pointed out particular areas to pay attention to. I'd often say "Please nevermind the voice or the musicianship, but I'd like tips on my melody, lyrics, and blah blah". When people would put up a gazillion disclaimers (we all critiqued each other, then got GRADED on our critiques of others, so honesty prevailed pretty much)... we'd be left with a "what the heck am I supposed to say that you haven't disclaimed already?" type of thought. Nobody likes to see a sub that the submitter has fully critiqued themselves... be put up for public critique. I'm WITH ya there Michael.  :wink:

An approach more like
"Please give me your honest opinion on the high notes in the bridge"
(or something like that)

Rather than
"I know I sucked on the high notes on the bridge"

..... Would be a better wording for people to use. Because, when people claim they were terrible, they sucked, da-da-da-da-da and all that... You automatically DO feel the urge to say "Nah, you did good there". To where, if they just asked for open opinions... You may agree with what they think, you may not.  Atleast, you'd feel more free to tell it honestly, and not be swayed by a disclaimer or by thinking "oh shoot, they know they suck, I'm gonna sweeten the blow a bit"

Am I MAKING any sense, or making your head spin with "What did she just say"??

haha.... Night people:) I'm hungry.

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Somebody read Charmin's reply to me out loud.  My eyes can't stay focused long enough to read it!  LOL

Hey, now, don't be a smarty pants. We run those kinds of people out of here:)

(kidding.. don't strike me down.. I was kidding)

Lord knows, I'm about the biggest smarty pants around, Lmao.
(when the mood hits me that is)

Odie, you better read that, and read it ALL.... cause I'm gonna quiz you later.  :D

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OK, I'll cut and paste it over to Word, then change the font size to 20.  That should work for these senior citizen eyes!  

Odie, they SELL reading glasses up at Dollar Store silly..... all the way up to 3.0 strength. I know, cause dad buys them there.  

I woulda made the font bigger, but my lands..... they'd have strung me up:)

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Cool!  I love that Dollar Store! We should stop hijacking Michael's thread though.  I should know better than that!  :yes:

Yeah, I was just gonna say.....

Don't MAKE me call the forum police in here on ya!!  :D

*carry on Michael*

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THanks Charmin (and Odie--you rascal!)....those are very good points raised.  I myself suffer from allergies and once in blue moon I'll make mention of something like "my sinuses are  messed up but I tried my best on here"  (but only in the "comments" only submissions.) I suppose truly, if you did what you think is a reasonably nice sounding performance (even though your voice is not up to par for whatever reason) one doesn't need to mention it, something I will refrain from doing next time I have beri-beri or ma-go-go of the mag-go-go when I record.

As you pointed out Charmin, I think that is a very good plan, when asking for critiques to ask people to listen for and concentrate on those specific areas one is not sure about. I know one thing: like any project, once you have it all done, mixed and all that and you slap it up there you think "Hey, I did a very nice job on this!"  Then you listen to the same thing weeks later and you find a spot or two that sounds nasty!  I suppose being removed from the actual performance and not being wrapped up in it for a week or so, one could come back and do a pretty good critique on themselves!

Take care,

Michael

Haha, yeah... it don't take me a week:)

I can sub it, listen to some other people..... then maybe the next day, someone will have made a comment (with specific wording) that makes me wonder about what they said, so I'll listen back to see if I hear what they meant.... and I'm like....  :shock:  :shock:  :shock:

...... WHY didn't I listen to this more closely?

It's the nature of the singing beast I guess, I think we all do that.
And too, I've heard alot of people say that our subs "lose quality" through an upload. I don't see how... but it's a nice disclaimer, hahaha.

On the other... well, we all have times (especially this time of year) where we are bound to sing with colds & such. Dislaimers (in the winter) seem to get more frequent.  I just try to do Tanya Tucker or Bonnie Tyler when my throat is raspier than usual, Lmao.

Ciao Michael.  :wave:

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I had no idea that disclaimers were perceived in those ways you guys have mentioned.  When I put one of those on my sub, it's because I've either become frustrated with it in some way after spending so much time on the thing and because of that I'm not about to toss it in the recycling bin without at least a go around or not enough time was spent and I know if I did it would've been better.  Hmmm, I will definitely have to rethink next time.  I believe it's just natural that when you're not at least 95% pleased with the result, that you want to let others know YOU know it's not completely up to snuff.

I agree with this.  I believe what specifics the musician wishes the critiquing person to listen for should ALWAYS be stated regardless..



I perceive this differently based on what was instilled in me which is "When performing UNLESS you absolutely must regardless, you BETTER be at least 95% up to snuff. If not, you don't publically do it. No disclaimers allowed or accepted". Like circus-life, NOBODY wants to so a hack less than best attempt of an individuals performing.  If you are bothered by things about your performance, why should you believe the audience deserves to hear that ?  Assuming a person is that defensive they aren't really ready to handle a General opinion Critique...

I was taught that there was never anything casual about a general public performance.  IOW,  a recital which is held often behind closed doors and sometimes for a panel to Critique is STILL a venue where the performer is expected to perform THE BEST that they can, EVEN in a JFF setting (which is not an effort you should ask to be critiqued)... It's up to the panel to tell a person what they feel,  not for the performer to start covering up and stating :well that wasn't the best I can do:.. That appears defensive.  I believe a person should do the absolute best they can in any public performance, and if asking for a critique rather than stating all the excuses as to why it isn't really as good a performance as you are capable of, it makes MORE sense to specifically ask for an area to be listened for...

When a person gives me a page long list of reasons they could've done the song better,  what I feel like saying is

"Why did you submit something you feel is that unpolished ?  Polish it up FIRST and perform AFTER you no longer have a paragraph of apologies for how unpolished it was,  YOU NEVER perform something you aren't proud of, Critique is a FORMAL process, you don't ask somebody to critique a  hack job, you always perform ONLY your best effort when given that option !!"..

JMO

(JFF still should be polished too..  The audience deserves your best effort and NOTHING less.  performing what you deem as subpar work is a very bad habit to get into).  This was my conditioning.  I here MANY submitting stuff that if I were to give them an honest Critique it would be... "You shouldn't have submitted something sounding that unpolished considering you know you can do so much better, didn't you ever learn that when you turn in a paper in school it shouldn't be one you know is a C- ?"

This was instilled in me OVER and OVER... You NEVER submit less than your best effort !  THe audience deserves more...  Formal performing (which is what deserves Critique) isn't easy NOR is it just fun... It's got to be as close to 100% as possible !!I was taught that if *I* wasn't pleased with the result of how I sounded, it was disrespectful to the listening audience to perform it.  I must have more integrity.  Many times (when I was younger) I was told  "Why are you performing such slop ?  You are wasting my time, and yours !"

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I'm inclined to agree with you for the most part.  I can honestly say that I am much more particular about the quality of my subs than I was when I first started recording and subbing here nearly 1-1/2 years ago.  Knowing how to listen and critique myself has helped me to polish my recordings better.  It use to be that when I was in the process of or had finished mixing, but caught a phrase that bugged me because of the way I sang it, I'd let it slide...now I'll redo it.  I've found that in the long run I'm much more satisfied with the finished product though it took the extra time to get it right.  I'm definitely not a one-taker kinda gal, though, and never have been.   Sometimes it's hard to catch everything at the time I'm working on a song.  Like Michael, I may think a sub is good, but after being away from it for a couple of weeks and coming back, I'll think quite differently...which is why I rarely resub.  

I used to learn a new song and sub it the same day quite often.  For me, it's been working better if I sit on a song for awhile and listen and sing along, drag it out when I think I'm ready to record, work on it for a bit, then tuck it away for at least another day.  That 24 or so hour period between the practice session and the final recording sometimes makes a lot of difference in how well it turns out and how satisfied I am...something usually clicks for me during that dormant period, especially if I've been struggling with it.  I can't tell you how many times in the past that I've wished I waited another day before doing a final recording.  Occasionally, I'm lazy and just want to get it over with and move on, though I regret it later on.

I think you're correct about doing one's best in a public setting, though.  Attention to detail and diligence on the part of the person submitted makes the listening experience much more enjoyable, no doubt.  Some of us, however, have to share a computer with other members of the family so that's not always possible to nitpick everything to death.  For some reason, my son doesn't view karaoke as being a priority over his college homework...imagine that!  LOL

Thanks for your input, Kappy.

Making it worth the audiences time, and respect for ones audience were BIG BIG areas I learned I must respect !  OR:  Your audience DOES judge you.  They take time out've THEIR schedule to see you perform for THEIR purposes, when a person goes to a concert, or a performance (outside of a cute kid who's a family member) they aren't taking time out've their schedule to do the performer a favor,  they take time out've their schedule to listen or see a performer for their own selfish reasons (meaning they like the performance)...Performing publically wasn't just about me having fun..  "Performing Art" *meant* PROFESSIONAL and very serious area of the art.. Otherwise it was practice or recital and took place behind closed doors !   Even "JFF" meant "fun for the audience", The performer had to do what he did very well, otherwise "JFF" was considered by most "cheap time-waster"..

I'm not saying I like this,  but this was a fundamental aspect of being a "performer" that I was taught repeatedly.   Meaning,  MANY Critique performers anyway,  just behind their back !  I certain amount of group psychology and psychology in general should be understood before a person submits something for such a VAST audience such as the audience out there listening to songs in SS.... MOST (whether we like it or not) initially form an opinion of your ability  (either good, or sucky) IN ANY category

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I think those values are very important.  I had to learn some of the things you've mentioned on my own.  Unfortunately, I didn't grow up in a musically-inclined family (how I envy those who did)...with the exception of a cousin who I never saw, nobody sang or played a musical instrument nor were any of us ever encouraged to do so.  I desperately wanted to take piano lessons when I was in the 4th or 5th grade, but because I only stuck with violin for a few months, my mother thought it was a waste of time and didn't think I'd stick with piano (which is an investment) so that never happened.  I can't whine, though, because I could've pursued it later on.  I've heard it's a lot more difficult to learn when you're older, though...the very thought can be self defeating.  I do play some acoustic guitar sometimes, but have never been confident enough with it to perform in front of an audience.  I have done all I could do to encourage my children in music.  One son plays drums, one plays bass, guitar, piano, and sings and my daughter took piano for several years and is planning on starting back up again.  Despite my pleas for one son to spend more time practicing to hone his skills, he doesn't take it as seriously as my other son who is very driven.  It boils down to the child having an innate drive to be good.

I've done those things sometimes. I can remember a few. Starting out most of my vocals were not very loud so I had disclaimers on that. Other times I recorded something (such as Billy Idol) that sounded a bit off to me so there was a disclaimer, but that was because it seemed it sounded much different to me on the different sound systems I played it back on. Kind of like when you hear yourself talking but it sounds weird to you.  LOL I always think my voice sounds a bit odd when I hear it played back. In that case it was surprising that people liked it so much. Also I remember I did Aubrey and had a bit of asthma and that came out in the recording. I that case I had already recorded it, and the process I use is very involved. I thought it was worthwhile to submit just so people could listen, and because I liked the song (whether I sang it or not), and I just wanted to sub it.

So I suppose my point is, that I just sub stuff. I don't really plan on getting better feedback or more positive comments by pointing out my errors, I just notice them and so I acknowledge it. I do that so people know what was going on with the recording. Not sure if that is right or wrong, here or there I just do it. I think to some degree I do it because there are some people that are somewhat critical and I want them to know I am aware of it in advance, or so that they know IMO that I don't always suck so bad on the song. Of course that isn't necessarily anything worthwhile either.

I suppose it depends on what you are looking for in a critique. Probably usually I just want to know how much someone liked it, and if I pulled it off, or if I totally hosed it and need to stick to another type of music. However I realize and agree that there is definitely a need and a place for more detailed critiques.  Also I think that ranking and comments in SS should stay. We can always change or improve how the ranking and critiquing should be done.

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The Truth Is Out There

I think....

That it's not such a big deal. We've all done it from time to time.

[schild=1 fontcolor=000000 shadowcolor=FFFFFF shieldshadow=1]Guilty As Hell[/schild]

It's when someone does it EVERY time, no matter if they're ill... or well... or just learned a new song... or have been singing it all their lives. If someone always has a bunch of disclaimers, yet subs for critique... Yeah, that raises a red flag.

Steven:

I've heard you say, plenty of times, exactly what you just stated. Personally, I think that is SAD.

I never played at a level you appear to have played at (professionally) but my family played many events when I was a kid growing up. We still do from time to time. But never once was I made to feel inadequate if I didn't give my 100%. I would usually end up quaking in my shoes from FEAR of something going wrong... and my parents would be behind me telling me it was okay... that I should just give it my best shot and do my part proudly. This, I beleive, helped fuel my love of music. Nobody wants to feel that if they give a less than 95% performance... that they failed.

Music is for enjoyment. Not always for others' enjoyment, but for your OWN. You know, I have more fun learning the songs & singing them than I have reading my comments from people... It's nice to share, but it's more for ME.

I understand where you are coming from, but I don't think that's the level people at SS need to be at. Some songs you'll do better, some you'll do worse... If one is less than you feel it should be, maybe just don't get that one ranked & critiqued. I don't think people need the pressure of "this should be atleast in the 95th percentile of your absolute best, or don't waste my time listening". Sorry, but I think that's a bit extreme.

Hell, even most pro singers are that way. Have you EVER watched Dolly Parton live? She is a hoot, she'll mess up and laugh at herself... and carry on. And people love her.

Sometimes this place gets WAY too serious.  :no:

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Ya know, Charmin...I really don't want to take this place so seriously either that it ceases to be fun...it can be hard to find that balance, but I'm satisfied with both how I approach subbing on this site as well as enjoying all the great people here.  People are here for different reasons and whatever they may be, it's cool with me!  :hug:

We can respectfully disagree here  :hug:

My own feelings are that when a person performs for ALL in the world that want to listen, that's a large judgmental/ critical audience DESPITE whether the performer takes their craft seriously or not.  While I agree that arts can and should be fun, my perspective differs when a person enters into the "Performing" arts area. In the area people have every right to perceive things seriously, because many in the audience ALSO take performing arts seriously, and wish for professional performers to exist. This demand exists in ALL areas of every artform, as it does in sports...  I had a critical upbringing in this area, others haven't (which is fine), while I do not wish to impinge my feeling, I believe it's not unreal either because it's my feeling that people IN GENERAL ARE judgemental whether we wish things to be that way, or not.

JMHO.  I respect ALL that disagree with it !   It's something I wouldn't change in my upbringing either BECAUSE I love music even behind closed doors, OR when playing out for a smaller quaint group... Performing for ALL who want to listen in a VAST setting I feel a person does themselves a disjustice NOT to realize that audiences ARE judging you.  Whether you or I care or not, is up to us as individuals.  While many smile like Paula,  MOST underneath are Simon's.

How about musicians that DO wish for a more serious interaction ?  Should they not display it in Singer's Showcase ?   Just wondering because I DO know intensity puts quite a few off.   Assuming this to be the case, why are their poll's regarding changing SS ?  Why not just say "Those of you that are serious, WE would rather you take it elsewhere".

JMO...  Not judging wrong or right, just being open and honest about something that might exist, and few wish to overtly state this.



I absolutely agree,  it's up to ALL individuals to only be where they want to be in the singing area.  I am just stating my opinion based on my unyielding feelings that audiences as a whole are NOT as sweet and impervious to judging people in any setting as some wish to believe.  To NOT think people talk about a persons ability (especially in competitive forums where there's ranking and critiquing going on) Is to bury ones head in sand (IMHO).. People DO judge, NOT ALL, but MOST formulate opinions of

-  They are pretty good, I like what I experience listening to them sing (OR:)
-  Nah,  I won't go back, nothing floats my boat

realistically, the VAST majority listening to performances aren't doing so to support "Their friends". That's only a tiny section of what's going on among a large listening group.  Should this matter to a performer ?  Well, that is ENTIRELY up to them I suppose.  IT DOES matter to me however.

Reason being,  as stated, WHEN a person takes time to listen to music, the experience is often a selfish one.. Not charitable.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

 

Yes, I do think we can:)

As I said, I do understand where you're coming from. I'm not knocking your right to speak your mind... I'm just having a friendly disagreement with ya on a few points.

But there are SO many different sides to SS, that you can't generalize so much. Personally, I am VERY judgemental, inside. No, I don't let that out usually (not even in real life). My judgements pass through my mind, but they are likely to be replaced by a better/worse judgement with that person's next sub I listen to. (sounds confusing, but I'm being honest) I try not to be that way at all, but... I'm only human. (Charmin------> Not a spambot either)

Point is, even if I do my 100% best, or surprise the hell out of myself and do a song that is, for me, 105% of my normal sub.... there are gonna be those who judge me badly anyhow. Maybe they hate my voice, maybe they hate my attitude, maybe they hate the song, or hate the genre, hell.... maybe they hate ME period. It happens. (I don't need a show of hands though, thanks people....)

I know the world in general is judgemental. But we can't ALWAYS strive to be OUR BEST. Heck, that would be like not ever going to the store to grocery shop unless my hair was all dolled up and my make up just right, and my best clothes on. Truth is, I'm likely to be seen down there in a ponytail, NO makeup save a bit of mascara, and a t-shirt and sweatpants with cowboy boots pulled over them. (doesn't THAT paint a lovely picture?) I know people will judge my looks, wherever I go... because it's human nature. You see someone- and an opinion is INSTANTLY formed. But sometimes, I'm gonna be comfie being me.... and to hell with what the onlooker may think.  They can look again, or look away... their choice. Same with singing. I feel like trying a new song on... it may be one I practice very hard to get right, or it may be one I've just gotten and can't wait to record cause I've been dying to try it. Other than the most obvious that we all look for in our subs, I don't pick them to death and analyze them... I don't think each and every one should reflect 100% of my ability. Heck, it's a website... not a contest. I'm not trying to win money, or score a contract. I'm here to *have fun*. Certainly, yes, sometimes... a song will be more important for one reason or another, and I'll nitpick it (somewhat). If I did that with all my songs..... Steven, I'd rarely ever sub one at all.  As it is, give me a few days, and I want to yank it back down and sing it over anyhow. I think we've all agreed that is common here.

As to the very serious subbers... no, there's nothing wrong at all with that. I said I don't think EVERYONE falls into the same category. That's what makes this place so cool, all levels can be here together. The ones hoping to land a singing career, the ones who do it cause they simply can't live without singing and love this place, the ones who know dang well they can't sing but want to participate anyhow.... that's why I don't think we should all be bagged together.  If YOU were to sub, I would know that in your mind you gave that song your absolute best shot. Some here do, but others don't. Maybe they don't have the time to take to get it perfected, maybe they don't have the equipment... etc

Those who feel they "waste their time" listening to (and possibly offering critiques for) subs that aren't the performers best they could do... well, you can weed those people out of your listens. It becomes apparent who gives it their all on a constant basis, and who doesn't. If you find a vocal slacker, don't tune into them if that's your wish.
But see, as I said, I'm here for the enjoyment of sharing music. What I appreciate are those who can listen to my best subs AND my god-awful worst ones, and not be turned off... and still come back time and again to listen and let me know they were there.  Lord help the *perfectionist* who by chance listens to ALL my subs.  I hope that type of person passes me by, cause I don't want that kind of listener. Not here anyhow, this is a fun karaoke site to me- ONLY.  I don't believe nor trust in most critiques given here. I don't want them... I don't think they'll ever change.

I don't like to be *judged*, I don't like to be *compared*. When all is said and done, no matter how good or bad I did on a song, who liked it or who didn't.... I'm still "just me" at the end of the day. Sure, I like to hear if people think I did a good job on a song, and if comments aren't "quite so grand or plentiful" I can figure that I must NOT have done such a good job.
But I don't want people expecting me to "give it my 100%" all the time. Heck, I get THAT kind of pressure at work, I don't need it here too:)

As to some "taking it elsewhere".... personally, I hate to see that happen. I don't see why we can't all co-exist here, and just understand that not all of us want the same things from this site.

I mean, be as serious as you want I guess.... but respect those who aren't. Steven, there ARE those of us who do this just-for-the-fun-of-it.

And this is TOTALLY the opposite of how I felt about this site at one time. I came here, looking for critiques... the numbers appealed to me. I hadn't had a crowd of people stick a number on a karaoke performance of mine.  But that thought was quickly revised after a few threads such as this one and the poll threads going on. I just do NOT think this is the place for it. So, I take the fun from SS... and leave the rest behind. (except, of course, when I'm in the mood to have a friendly disagreement)



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