Karaoke Forums

So now we have Eagle taking over from X

_________________
I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Charmin I do wish you wouldnt hold back like this...please tell us how you REALLY feel  LMAO

_________________
"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

  "Opinions" in PM.  It's been tried and tested over and over again in the Showcase, Too many aren't mature enough to mean it when they say "I can take criticism in public"... ALL opinions best be sent via PM... Comments should preclude negative aspects !   One would hope that a person requesting a critique is knowledgeable enough to know what's coming their way, but even-so, under such a condition this would require the listener to KNOW what critique means too.. Lest there becomes too much emotional clutter that makes a person feel critique has ulterior motive, or is just a form of camouflaged bashing.  Additionally, People that state they can handle a critique in the Showcase too often either aren't either mature enough to know their needs, because those of us that have attempted to accomodate them with no negative intent have gotten slammed all too many times; or those requesting Critique think the term means "throw flowers", but either way, the process has become nasty, and Opinions or anything that might require discretion and psychology to be requisite, SHOULD now be PRIVATE PM, Email, ONLY !

Critique is to benefit the person singing.  It's no part of competition, however competitive aspects, and ego issues have carried over into critique EVEN among those of you that KNOW what the term means !    Critique does not belong in a setting designed to be FUN for all, which is also a setting with layers of political  issues.  Critique works in Muses Muse, HOWEVER, it's moderated, and most in the room happen to be serious about what they do. Additionally, The mods may wish to consider separating SS into two groups.

1) Not serious just for fun singer
2)  aspiring pro singer  (this category would allow for public critique only IF
                                  the party wishes for one)


Billy (OK what now) had a valid point in a thread where we DID successfully get the Critique process to workk (this was last year before I got fat and lazy however  LOL ).  Although impractical to impose, something comparable would need to be imposed in order for this to MAYBE work better.

Singer states:         "Can you Critique my submitted material?"
Critiquer states:       "Specifically what would you like me to listen for ?"
                                 "Are you trying to make this your own ?  or nail the cover ?"

Singer states:            "Please tell me just what you think of how I did,                  
                                   whatever dude, I wanna know"


Critiquire restates:              "ARE YOU SURE you want this Critique ?"

                   This gives the singer a chance to rethink

                  "Um, but dude, what do you mean ?,  I mean like Don't say anything
                    that might hurt my feelings 'n &hit"


This is an obvious indication that like most requesting the Critique,  this individual doesn't genuinely want a "Critique".


ADDED IN:


Also another after-thought regarding this.  Muses Muse doesn't have a ranking system that exists parallel to Critique category.  I don't think most understand just how close to impossible it becomes for Critique and Rank to work comcomitantly when individuals are so easily getting ego's spoonfed with 9's and 10's golore !  Human ego's get built up, perspective is lost, and many crash HARD... Critique category ESPECIALLY in public makes things vulnerable to those with ego's, and most artists HAVE egos !!  Singer's Showcase CAN NOT exist harmoneously set up as a foundation that might breed fierce competition with an adjunct "Critique" category !!!!  Too friggin tenuous !

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Nah, I'm still gonna hang onto my original "Nevermind".  If I were to honestly say all that's on my mind at the moment... it could get nasty:) So I'll shush up and head on over to greener pastures.

.

_________________
♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

spoil sport you're nooooooo fun
I don wanna play wiv you noooooo more

_________________
"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Here's Jian !   Jian as well as several others in here have proven that THEY CAN handle a Critique in public, that they INSIST be given in the "open" so all can  see what others honestly feel !


Jian,  maybe it would be most helpful for you to explain JUST how and why you are able to deal with Critique in the open (which most know is VERY difficult).  I believe to hear from those who genuinely CAN handle a critique in public, would be more beneficial than playing ping-pong regarding limitation of what critique should or shouldn't mean.  The definition exists, it's not to be rewritten.  Let's hear from a person who CAN handle a critique, as to what allows them to circumvent ego, and ignore negatives without rebuttal.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Steven I think many could what prompts the knee jerk reaction of some (and yes I too have had to think before typing at times) is the conditioning of fluff. You get so used to it that it its like turning the hot water off in the shower and standing under cold...it takes a short period of time before the body adjusts

btw if ever you want to share a cold shower...

_________________
"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

I remember now Steven.  This alternative song comment method was talked about in an earlier thread.  It still seems like a good idea.

Not taker on the cold shared shower...*sob* how will I ever recover

_________________
"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Even among critiquers, all have a different style,  "some fluff" or up-down-up style critiquing doesn't have to preclude ALL fluffing because we are dealing with psychology after-all, For me to sing and receive a 9, and good-job Kappy (yet in reality the listener is thinking- "you pathetic piece of sound-making dung"), is far different than OK what now (billy) a pro-level gifted vocalist receiving a 9.. It doesn't help someone who's really good to receive fluff if they truly wish for critique.  In my case, NOTHING I receive in writing will do much good  LOL , SOMETIMES white lies are good, especially if a pathetically lousy person loves music, and knows better than to take our advice as gospel, and run to A-1  because they CAN deliniate between lie vs fact, and are just going to feel better about singing, and gain a positive experience knowing dang-well they aren't that good themselves.. In some cases if fluff helps the talentless person enjoy music, that is where it belongs perhaps... BUT, THIS IS ALL part of discretion the critiquer must have, another important part of an educated process.  DISCRETION is KEY !

If a person thinks they can gain more mileage in helping another by fluffing good, (as in the case of the singer so pathetically bad it's obvious very little Critique or tape-recorder listening is going to help their near musicless sole), HOWEVER, a serious singer must also know that THEY are not rated next to (head to head with) the shower singing hobbyist.  Another reason to split category, or send private Critique.  If you receive a 4 Vicki,  that doesn't mean you aren't a MUCH better singer than me.... (receiving 38 consecutive "10's" and breaking twice as many listeners windows and ear-drums) however as you correctly mentioned awhile back, MOST will lose perspective in such a setting !  I know I would !!

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

errrrrrr steven I was more interested in the shower  LMAO

just jokin...yep I understand everything you are saying. I fell off my chair when some punk who cant sing wandered along and gave Billy some low score. How do I know who it was? well I had commented immediately before and had given him a perfect score. I went back to see Billy's response to my comments and couldnt believe he was a 9 or was it even less?

I could never set myself up to be a critique of music. But I do know when someone is off key and if the song is in a genre I am familiar with chances are I will have the orig and can compare.

I find it fascinating that someone who cant sing can still have a good ear. This is very true of my son who has some formal training in music. He is composing some interesting material and can immediately tell me if I am off and where...but can he sing? Hell no!!!

_________________
"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

What I was thinking, and lost my train of thought  LOL   was that Singer's Showcase has become all or none behaviour meaning those that fluff, chastise those that are Critiquing much of the time, EVEN NOT ALLOWING the critiquing party to offer the critique the singer can handle, and DOES want.  Critique is discouraged in that setting by most now, it goes against the "funloving grain" to even see it for many.. Those that can't handle critique often become "bleeding hearts" and project THEIR OWN inability to handle Critique onto those that can..  Critique is discouraged across the board in SS now.  It's become All or None as it currently exists.. This is ugly for those that have a right to honestly,  those mature enough to state their needs, lose out





This works both ways,  it becomes ugly for those of us that have an excellent ear, and ability for music to hear what we actually sound like ..  Fact is our vocal chords are NOT like any other musical instrument that exists. CCindy (speech pathologist, and a few others explained why it's often tough for instrumentalists to pick up singing)... There are studies about this.  They are two very different areas of music for some strange reason...  We don't hear what we sound like singing. Physiologically we can not, and just psychologically singers and actors often need to work VERY VERY hard to watch their own performances, many cringe.  I might be able to sing, but I can't sing like the rock Icons I like so for me, I suck.. I don't wish to sing opera or choir,  my voice is clean.. I damn myself, to me, I sound HORRIBLE. Yet I can't really hear myself as I sound, or objectively, I can hear a good guitar tone however on tape when I play it back, most instrumentalists can.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

well I hate to chastise you sir, but ummmmm was there not a time when you were going to offer some form of forum for serious singers? it never kinda got off the ground
I welcome any suggestions and have a good friend who will critique me in private but even he doesnt go far enough.
Maybe he feels I cant take it, or maybe he feels reluctant to go further becos I dont with him. The fact is I rarely find anything to critique on his, he is so bruddy good. I do however tell him if I dont like a song, it never has been because he has sung it badly.
This could of course mean I dont have a good ear

_________________
"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Yes I was,  started to, but there was not enough interest.  What it meant, is that I would've ended up doing MOST of the critiquing, and I can't handle that..  Critiquing is a TOUGH process that must be thought out.  Most I know, CAN handle my honest critique because I cater to THAT individual only. and try to take THEM into consideration.. Problem is, Many Emailed me, and PM'd me for Critique, and I had to end up saying...

1)  There are periods I just CAN'T think straight due to real life.  It requires VERY specific healthy uncluttered mindset

2)   I can't possibly give 4 critiques a day 7 days a week,  that isn't fair to those wanting objectivity..

3)    There was never enough group interest for this to float...  We'd have needed at least 4-5 diligently doing this frequently..  Like most artists, I am VERY limited when it comes to what I do know, and can critique,  there are MANY styles out there... I hate to keep saying,  "Sorry, I'm a Ct yankee that doesn't understand traditional country, liturgical style, Gospel,  Rap, etc", THis process requires an active team, not one person who's already 75% off.. or burnt out.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

ever subscribed to the K.I.S.S theory?
You are assuming that every individual that wanted you to listen to them wanted a 10 page dissitation.
I would doubt this was the case. Keep it simple and in language that is understandable to the uneducated and above all give suggestions as to ways of improving
Thats it

But I take your point....who in their right minds would want to sit here day in and day out listening to dozens of wannabes, give honest feedback, cop some flack and not get paid for it

_________________
"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Yes,  I am familiar with the "Keep it simple" theory !    "Critique" IMO can't be "brief listen" with non thought out careful presentation. Brief and VERY concise isn't simplistic, it's as or more difficult.. None of my critiques contain the superfluous blabbing that these posts contain anyway  LOL .. The critique must be accurate, and more thought out.. These posts are fly-by-night, or just off the top of my head..  There is NOTHING simplistic about offering any Critique,  because often the toughest part is the presentation, even when brief, you must be accurate and constructive, not take easy ways out, and end up presenting white lies. Believe me, sometimes that is BRUTAL, If you don't listen very carefully you aren't critiquing, If you aren't helping a person your critique is useless, and wrong IMHO... How can you be critiquing while even establishing what corners to cut, especially if it's a song you don't especially like ?  I try to put my personal likes and dislikes aside as much as I humanly can, just because the song brings back bad memories, doesn't mean the person has done any lesser a job.. I have to at that point listen harder ! I have to analyze alot about a person before I write just one line that qualifies as a "Critique" too, I try to size up what I know about the person I am critiquing, (and on the I-net that is considerably little without facial expression to go by). Another factor to consider as well is has this person improved ?  How can I know a slight pitch problem should even be mentioned if they stated to commenting folks prior that they had a headcold, and know they aren't 100% ?   I try to eliminate all unnecessary negatives by researching things that won't help a person in critique, but similarly mentioning what the person might truly NOT already know.  Also, if the person is attempting to cover a song, I almost always relisten to the original song and if the person is very good I even do a head to head comparison. I take ALOT of time to critique a person..Also, What if I don't feel a certain problem CAN be corrected by the person,  I can't tell much about a person just by listening to ONE song. Sometimes it's tough to tell between recording probs too, a bad day, etc. I try to take EVERYTHING into consideration, read between lines and get a feeling of what this person wants from me before offering it (by reading others comments and profiles left by them, there IS a big psychological aspect of this process).  Critique means  "A CAREFUL analysis".... Never simple.. The terms Kiss and Critique to me are paradoxical.  Yes, I know I'm analytical, but critique is where this is appropriate. If I don't have time to Critique,  I shouldn't Critique... This is just how I look at it... It's a concise ACCURATE process that must be presented in as much of a positive constructive manner as possible.


In brief:    The Critiquer has the psychological onus regarding his/her statements. The person is trusted by most requesting critique to be accurate, and have listened carefully, otherwise it's no critique....carefully lisening, and organizing presentation is time consuming. THis is a tough venue to critique in at all because emotionally I was never comfortable critiquing a person I could not see face to face. it's tougher to critique those you don't really know.  There's no easy critique...  The person requesting a "Critique" doesn't want a "rough idea", assuming they do, that's comments, opinions, etc...  and THAT should be kept positive only !  too much margin for hurting someones feelings EVEN assuming they can handle a real critique, Critique takes well over 15 minutes per person, this includes writing down parts of the song, often going to the piano, etc.  Now typing in here like this ?  That takes no thought, or time... The only person I can hurt typing like a babbling fool (Shhhh,,,  hush up  LOL ) is me when I yack like this,  Seldom is this to be construed as a direct ego assault.  Appraisel of a performing artist is MUCH different however !!

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

OK,  Time to align the soap in my underwear drawer !   Need to run !



(now time to count my shirts, and arrange them according to color)

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

There are still some good things afloat in the "Singers Forum"; if anything recording techniques and related impedimentae (sorry) have been discussed.

Steven,

Singing is an art, and I am learning. I started as a tone deaf singer. I KNOW THAT. And I want to improve. There is no way to improve if I DO NOT ADMIT my weakness. I can handle any form of critisem on my singing because I want to learn. Try critizing my hair style and you get a black eye .
I have come to a point now where I can tell that I am off even while I am singing.

For these of you who think you can sing on-key from start to end; try runing your recorded song in auto-tune. The result will supprise you. IF you do not have the program, try using pitch correction fuction of you recording program. I think CEP/Audition have it and even Nero have a wav editor. Do not use it to do correction but to see where the singing is off.

I may sub a bad and pitchy recording I made before x'mas and see if people can tell me where themistake are.

_________________
I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

a critique give to me by a pro. someone that gets paid to critique...

the song was an alabama song...Theres Know Way.....

When I requested a different genre, I did not mean for you to take on a country/whiny boy band (Yes, an odd pairing) tone for a cheesy love song.

This was very unsatisfactory. You could barely hit the notes, and the entire song sounded pathetically desperate.

I suggest finding a song in a lower key. Find your chest voice, and use it to your ability.

u don't always get what u pay for....but in this case he was critiqueing on another karaoke site.....

he's no longer with us...ll

and mine was 1 of the better critiques....
so much for music knowledge

Billy