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mckyj57
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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:27 pm |
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Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:24 pm Posts: 5576 Location: Cocoa Beach Been Liked: 122 times
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I have started doing some recording with a condenser microphone, and I
love the crisp sound it gives compared to even a very good dynamic mic.
But to use a condenser mic, compression is nice as I understand. I
bought a Behringer MDX 1600 two-channel compressor/limiter/expander, and
I have read the manual. I have the compression set at 10DB, and
expansion set at -30Db. Attack/release is on auto, and I am using 1/4"
balanced patch into the insert input of my Behringer PMH3000 mixer.
The compression obviously works, as I can see that the peaks when I
get loud don't peg the meter, but despite my best efforts, the sound
when processed with the compression sounds "muddy", for lack of a
better term.
Thanks for any help for this new amateur recording engineer....
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Meep70
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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 3:29 pm |
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Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:39 am Posts: 180 Location: Euless, TX Been Liked: 0 time
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My guess is that you are compressing a bit much. What compression ratio are you using? I personally use about 2.5:1 and sometimes as high as 4:1, but never more than that for vocals.
From there, I set the threshold so that I am getting just a tiny bit of gain reduction (3-6dB) at what would be your average level.
As for expansion, Vocals, generally speaking, don't need expansion, so I would have expansion set lower (-55dB might be a good place to start) and at a fairly high ratio so that it acts as a noise gate, but doesn't adversely affect the sound of the vocals.
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karyoker
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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:06 pm |
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Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:43 pm Posts: 6784 Location: Fort Collins Colorado USA Been Liked: 5 times
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For a condenser mic which has more output the input level to the compressor has to be turned down.. For years we fought power mics in communication gear over modulatng clipping etc.. The common fault with audio procs like the 362 and 104 and people say they do more harm than good They are putting too much of an input to them... Without knowing your gain structure I can only guess that is your main prob...Does itsound normal with the compressor bypassed?
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Jian
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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:55 pm |
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Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:18 pm Posts: 4080 Location: Serian Been Liked: 0 time
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If you are recording yourself there is no need for a comp. A compressor is a corrective tool in this case. If you do not need it do not use it. But if you are using it then have a second look at your gain stucture.
A little compressing is normaly done at the mixing stage, it is to be avoided at the tracking stage.
_________________ I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott
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mckyj57
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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:06 pm |
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Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:24 pm Posts: 5576 Location: Cocoa Beach Been Liked: 122 times
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I have been playing with the settings (using "Tweak's Guide" as a base)
and I have 2:1 compression with effectively no limiter. I also turned off
expansion.
The mic sounds great with no compression at all; it is just that my
vocal dynamic range is such that I end up clipping when I get loud. I
could try changing my position to the microphone, which I routinely do
with a dynamic. But with the condenser, a friend of mine who is a pro
recording engineer said "get right up on it and let the compressor do
the work". Maybe I misunderstood him, or maybe he is used to incredibly
expensive compressors that can do that type of thing while my little
Behringer can't.
I do realize that any processor is going to add noise to the track, and
maybe that is just what I am hearing. In any case, for now I am going to
take Jian's suggestion and not compress at the tracking stage but instead
work on my mic technique a bit.
As always, I appreciate the help. I am having a blast at this stuff, if learning
a little bit slower than I might like.
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Jian
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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:42 pm |
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Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:18 pm Posts: 4080 Location: Serian Been Liked: 0 time
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If you find that you clip at the loud part only then just moving back a bit will help. I am sure you already know that.
The reason why some pro use compressor when recording is because it is difficult to tell those wannabe pop star good mic technique. There are some who like to jump up and down, some who keep turning the head left and right while singing. Some just screem. A compressor here will level and smooth the uneveness.
I have never use a compressor on a vocal when recording; mixing yes.
_________________ I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott
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Meep70
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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:17 pm |
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Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:39 am Posts: 180 Location: Euless, TX Been Liked: 0 time
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mckyj57 @ 6/1/2007, 11:06 pm wrote: I have been playing with the settings (using "Tweak's Guide" as a base) and I have 2:1 compression with effectively no limiter. I also turned off expansion. Sounds like a good start., but... Quote: it is just that my vocal dynamic range is such that I end up clipping when I get loud.....
I could try changing my position to the microphone, which I routinely do with a dynamic. But with the condenser, a friend of mine who is a pro recording engineer said "get right up on it and let the compressor do the work". That is normal as vocals are very dynamic. Normally, in a live setting, you would compensate for this by pulling away from the microphone, whether you are using a dynamic or condenser microphone. The problem with this is that with a directional microphone ("unidirectional", cardioid, hypercardioid, supercardioid, etc) the tonal quality changes with the distance of the microphone from your mouth, AND the direction the microphone is pointing (toward your mouth, away from your mouth, down your throat, up your nose, etc.). Your friend advised staying on the microphone and letting the compressor do the work, because by doing so, the tonal quality that is sent to your recording deice is consistent, because you have been a consistent distance form the mic, and the volume will ideally be consistent if the compressor is set properly. This is actually common practice in many studios, when recording vocals. Quote: Maybe I misunderstood him, or maybe he is used to incredibly expensive compressors that can do that type of thing while my little Behringer can't.
I do realize that any processor is going to add noise to the track, and maybe that is just what I am hearing. You heard your friend right. Even your inexpensive Behringer, when adjusted properly can go a long way toward taming your volume levels enough to get a consistent recording, and should add very little noise or coloration to your sound when adjusted properly. The trick is getting it adjusted properly. My question is: Where is the threshold set? I bet yours is set way too low. the threshold setting tells the compressor when to start compressing. If it is set too low, it compresses all your vocals. Ideally, you want it to just BARELY begin compressing when you are at your average level. That way most of your singing is compressed very little, if at all, and you still have SOME control over dynamics in your singing. Once you start getting louder than your average, the compressor then starts to work and keep those peak levels from getting out of hand. Play with the threshold the way I described and see if that helps. If this yields too little compression of your louder peaks (and it might with only 2:1 compression), then you can compensate by raising the compression ratio, so it compresses your peaks more, but leave the threshold alone so your average levels are relatively unprocessed. Perhaps you might as your recording studio for some pointers, too, as he is surely more experienced than I am. Quote: In any case, for now I am going to take Jian's suggestion and not compress at the tracking stage but instead work on my mic technique a bit. For the reasons I described above, I disagree with Jian. Your studio friend is right on the mark, in my opinion. However, until you get the compressor adjusted properly, your recordings may well sound better without it. Hang in there and keep playing with it and you'll get there! Quote: As always, I appreciate the help. I am having a blast at this stuff, if learning a little bit slower than I might like.
I understand that, and once you learn one thing, you open the doors to other things as well...be careful, it is a TERRIBLE addiction!
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Jian
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Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:50 pm |
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Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:18 pm Posts: 4080 Location: Serian Been Liked: 0 time
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If your singing position is beyond where proximity efx take in, then backing a little while singing the loud part will not have tonal efx to the vox.
I still belive that a compressor is a corrective tool, to be use only when other corrective measure cannot help.
_________________ I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott
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Meep70
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Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:02 pm |
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Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:39 am Posts: 180 Location: Euless, TX Been Liked: 0 time
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Jian @ 7/1/2007, 1:50 am wrote: If your singing position is beyond where proximity efx take in, then backing a little while singing the loud part will not have tonal efx to the vox. While this is true, singing far enough from the mic to be beyond where the proximity effect is apparent yields a thinner, colder sound, that often has to be fixed with EQ, not to mention that in a live situation, staying that far from the microphone is a sure recipe for feedback, since this would mean boosting the mic volume more to compensate. Quote: I still believe that a compressor is a corrective tool, to be use only when other corrective measure cannot help.
Same with EQ, reverb, delay, feedback destroyers, etc.... They are all tools that are there to help us sound our best and solve problems. Any of these tools, used properly, are a wonderful thing. Any of them used improperly, are sure to cause degradation of sound quality.
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Jian
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Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:30 pm |
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Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:18 pm Posts: 4080 Location: Serian Been Liked: 0 time
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In Live situation and esp. karaoke a comp is almost a must. When recording I would prefer to use it during the mixing stage. It all depend on you source and the way the board is set. So far I find it unnessary to use it at the tracking stage.
But for bass g'tar, a comp will help a lot during tracking.
_________________ I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott
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karyoker
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Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:52 pm |
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Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:43 pm Posts: 6784 Location: Fort Collins Colorado USA Been Liked: 5 times
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When tracking with a condenser mic compression is an abosolute must.. Even with a sm58 and a singer with operatic training it is a must.. During tracking I prefer to track one without compression and one with ... Then mix down with wet dry levels... Each mic and singer requires different compression and gain structure..It is a matter of trial and error what works for you might not work for all ...Recording with a condenser mic depends upon the studio acoustics,, Ie The acoustics in the room have to be adjusted accordingly...
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mckyj57
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Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:04 pm |
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Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:24 pm Posts: 5576 Location: Cocoa Beach Been Liked: 122 times
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Jian @ Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:30 pm wrote: In Live situation and esp. karaoke a comp is almost a must.
That would imply that there are 1) readily available compressors
suitable for karaoke, and 2) that there are easily-found settings that
produce good results without constant tweaking.
Perhaps I am connecting the thing improperly -- it definitely
compresses, but it doesn't sound good to me. When I take my uncompressed
vocal and compress it with effects on Audacity, it sounds fine.
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Meep70
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Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:06 pm |
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Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:39 am Posts: 180 Location: Euless, TX Been Liked: 0 time
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mckyj57 @ 7/1/2007, 11:04 pm wrote: Jian @ Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:30 pm wrote: In Live situation and esp. karaoke a comp is almost a must. That would imply that there are 1) readily available compressors suitable for karaoke, and 2) that there are easily-found settings that produce good results without constant tweaking. Ahhh... But there is! This piece of equipment has been a part of my sound system for many years, now, and is probably one of my wiser purchases: http://www.behringer.com/MDX4400/index.cfm?lang=ENGIt has four independent channels of compression. I use it to compress up to 4 vocals either on karaoke or when I do sound for a band. I have also used it to compress and/or limit guitar, and bass in live shows, when I have rogue players who can't control their volume. This one is more simple to operate than the model you are using, but flexible enough to be able to do lots. Quote: Perhaps I am connecting the thing improperly -- it definitely compresses, but it doesn't sound good to me.
When I take my uncompressed vocal and compress it with effects on Audacity, it sounds fine.
My guess is that something is still out of adjustment. Be patient, and you'll get it figured out. This isn't something that most people learn overnight--it takes time to figure out all the parameters and how they affect the sound.
Whatever plugin you are using in Audacity has settings that you might want to compare to the settings on your compressor for the sake of seeing where they are handling the signal differently.
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Jian
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Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:17 pm |
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Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:18 pm Posts: 4080 Location: Serian Been Liked: 0 time
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Quote: When I take my uncompressed vocal and compress it with effects on Audacity, it sounds fine.
It show that you do not need the comp. when tracking; you can still do the comp during mixing.
_________________ I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott
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Meep70
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Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:42 pm |
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Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:39 am Posts: 180 Location: Euless, TX Been Liked: 0 time
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Jian @ 8/1/2007, 12:17 am wrote: Quote: When I take my uncompressed vocal and compress it with effects on Audacity, it sounds fine. It show that you do not need the comp. when tracking; you can still do the comp during mixing.
Sorry, Jian, I have to disagree with you, here. The reason of compression while tracking is two-fold.
One, you prevent overdriving or saturating your recording media. When you overdrive digital media, the results are not pretty, and you have ugly clipping. With analog tape there was some natural compression due to the way the magnetic media responds when near saturation, but over-recording still caused distortion, though not nearly as unpleasant as digital clipping. Compression helps to prevent that.
Two, by tracking at lower levels to avoid overdriving your peaks you have more background noise and tape hiss (analog tape) and lower resolution (digital recording). By compressing, you are able to maximize your volume level that is saved when tracking, thereby avoiding these problems. Granted, the resolution and quality that we have at our disposal, today makes some of what I Am talking about a moot point for a casual recording hobbyist, who is just recording to goof around, but to the serious enthusiast, these are valid points.
After all is said and done and you have recorded all your tracks, and manipulation of dynamics is needed, it is preferable to be able to fine-tune those AFTER the fact, during the mix-down. This has been my experience, and has been based on all the recording tips and tricks I have read over the years to improve what I am able to do.
That isn't to say that your experience and opinion is not important or doesn't work for you, but that what you are advising is not what is commonly taught and practiced.
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Jian
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Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:32 pm |
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Joined: Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:18 pm Posts: 4080 Location: Serian Been Liked: 0 time
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Done 3 albums and never use a comp on the vox.
_________________ I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott
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mckyj57
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Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:10 am |
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Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:24 pm Posts: 5576 Location: Cocoa Beach Been Liked: 122 times
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Meep70 @ Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:06 am wrote: mckyj57 @ 7/1/2007, 11:04 pm wrote: Jian @ Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:30 pm wrote: In Live situation and esp. karaoke a comp is almost a must. That would imply that there are 1) readily available compressors suitable for karaoke, and 2) that there are easily-found settings that produce good results without constant tweaking. Ahhh... But there is! This piece of equipment has been a part of my sound system for many years, now, and is probably one of my wiser purchases: http://www.behringer.com/MDX4400/index.cfm?lang=ENGIt has four independent channels of compression. I use it to compress up to 4 vocals either on karaoke or when I do sound for a band. I have also used it to compress and/or limit guitar, and bass in live shows, when I have rogue players who can't control their volume. This one is more simple to operate than the model you are using, but flexible enough to be able to do lots. Then I must be doing something wrong; I am going from the insert on my mixer with a single TRS cable to the input of the MDX1600. Is this right? Quote: Quote: Perhaps I am connecting the thing improperly -- it definitely compresses, but it doesn't sound good to me.
When I take my uncompressed vocal and compress it with effects on Audacity, it sounds fine. My guess is that something is still out of adjustment. Be patient, and you'll get it figured out. This isn't something that most people learn overnight--it takes time to figure out all the parameters and how they affect the sound. Whatever plugin you are using in Audacity has settings that you might want to compare to the settings on your compressor for the sake of seeing where they are handling the signal differently.
Good point -- I used the same threshold/ratio/attack/release settings
and got good results on Audacity right away. Perhaps it is one of the
limiter/gate things getting in the way, though I think it is turned off.
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gunghouk
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:04 am |
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Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:30 am Posts: 140 Been Liked: 0 time
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I also have the MDX4600 and have no problems setting it up. As a starter I would suggest the following switch/knob settings for both channels on the MDX1600 as a starting point.
SC EXT - Out (off)
SC MON - Out (off)
LO CONTOUR - Out (off)
AUTO - Out (off)
INTERACT KNEE - In (on)
DE-ESSER - Out (off)
ATTACK - around 10mS (8 o'clock)
RELEASE - around 200mS (10 o'clock)
THRESHOLD -15db (11 o'clock)
RATIO 4:1
OUTPUT 0dB
I/O METER - In
IN/OUT - In
EXPANDER/GATE SECTION
-------------------------------
TRIGGER - OFF
RELEASE - Out
GATE - Out
COUPLE - Out (off)
You are correct in using a Y-lead to send & return the signal out and back from the channel insert point on your mixer to the compressor.
Try setting the mixer input trim level for the mixer manufacturers's maximum recommend level (using PFL and the mixer's meters if available) before inserting the compressor in the insert (this will give the compressor a good high level signal to work with).
Hope this helps somehow.
GH
_________________ Gadget's Karaoke : Boldly singing what no one has dared sing before.
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mckyj57
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:24 am |
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Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:24 pm Posts: 5576 Location: Cocoa Beach Been Liked: 122 times
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gunghouk @ Tue Jan 09, 2007 9:04 am wrote: I also have the MDX4600 and have no problems setting it up. As a starter I would suggest the following switch/knob settings for both channels on the MDX1600 as a starting point.
SC EXT - Out (off) SC MON - Out (off) LO CONTOUR - Out (off) AUTO - Out (off) INTERACT KNEE - In (on) DE-ESSER - Out (off) ATTACK - around 10mS (8 o'clock) RELEASE - around 200mS (10 o'clock) THRESHOLD -15db (11 o'clock) RATIO 4:1 OUTPUT 0dB I/O METER - In IN/OUT - In
EXPANDER/GATE SECTION ------------------------------- TRIGGER - OFF RELEASE - Out GATE - Out
COUPLE - Out (off)
You are correct in using a Y-lead to send & return the signal out and back from the channel insert point on your mixer to the compressor.
Try setting the mixer input trim level for the mixer manufacturers's maximum recommend level (using PFL and the mixer's meters if available) before inserting the compressor in the insert (this will give the compressor a good high level signal to work with).
Hope this helps somehow.
GH
Thank you very much for these settings!
And my problem turns out to be simple -- I had the wrong cable. New one on order -- and I suspect I will then get great results. It will be great to have the compressor for my occasional amateur shows!
Thanks to everyone for participating -- I am enjoying learning and I appreciate your help. As I am sure you know, this stuff is a blast.
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Lonman
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:07 am |
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Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 3:57 pm Posts: 22978 Songs: 35 Images: 3 Location: Tacoma, WA Been Liked: 2126 times
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The cable you ordered should be a send/return cable. 1/4" TS (tip/sleeve or mono plugs) on the 2 ends & 1 1/4" TRS (tip/ring/sleeve or stereo plug). Not just a 'Y' cable. The TRS (stereo) end plugs into the insert of the mic channel. Tip is the send goes into the input of the compressor while ring is the return & plugs into the output of the compressor.
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