Karaoke Forums

Has a direct approach towards honesty (non-sugar coated) become
"wrong" in our pampered PC unreal world.  Where the behaviour still goes on behind your backs despite the smiles and niceities (which are lies much of the time)..



FOOD FOR THOUGHT:

Is Simon actually correct ?   and our softness in lieu of living among "Be polite", "you must be PC" what's wrong ?  Is the drill Sgt actually wrong ?  Should anyone entering AI be prepared and a better quality performer than those Simon has to tell "suck" ?   Who is wrong here ?   Simon is realistic.. Harsh..  As are the performing arts on the pro-level with Ego's, backtalk, hypercritical audiences that clap despite trashing the performer.  Example..  If I give you a 4 in Singer's Showcase am I wrong ?   or are the people trashing me that gave you 10's wrong ?  .   Who's being realistic and honest with you ?  Did your friends and loved-ones encouraging you to enter the industry even though you might be pretty lousy hurt you more ?  Those afraid of telling you you are at best average ?  Isn't it pathetic that "true" friends are afraid to tell you "You aren't great" ?


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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I agree with Simon often, I hear the 'pitchy' performances that he indicates.  Most of the time he is dead on IMO.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I have said it before Steven, there is far too much PC in the world. Too few will stand up for something they believe in. Passion on the whole is now extinct because we have had it insipidly wrung out of us.
The one thing I will say however is that Simon is now less credible than he was originally because tis obvious that the "raw honesty" adds to the ratings and folk tune in because they love to hate him

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

I've seen enough of Simon to know that his angry words are often spurred by rude comments from the people auditioning... and I do agree that in a situation like that where it has to be one person chosen from thousands and thousands it shouldn't be sugar coated. I just don't watch the show so I don't see more of the general competitors, any AI I usually see is online... and obviously those are going to be the bad singers.... and usually the most defensive ones. Yeah Simon can be really mean.. but often before he gets to that point of nastiness it's just "No". Then the competitor gets mad.. and then Simon gets mad... etc etc. I think that all of us have a tendency to sugar coat for our friends... for fear of hurting them or making them angry. I try and be honest, and it HAS bitten me in the past. My ex bf always tries to sing really high falsetto things... and it doesn't sound good at all. The one time I told him that he should try some lower stuff he got defensive.. so I left it be. I really don't get the AI phenomenon... cause I think all diff levels of talent deserve kudos. It's also why I opt out of critique... I don't feel I am really in a position to critique anyone. I just try and enjoy music of all kinds at face value, otherwise it loses its soul to me. Edit: (I should mention that what I have seen Simon is usually right in his judgement as well)

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Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure. (I can't hear you. I have a banana in my ear.)

Yep Lonnie.   There's quite a parallel here...

IMO..  If I give a person a "4" in Singer's Showcase and an honest Critique (assuming they submitted in "C" and asked for real honesty stating they wish to be pro's ), I too, become the "nail that sticks out", or "Simon"..  Thing is,  I'm saving these people heartache and frustration anyway this is perceived..  Reason being.  If they aren't good,  they will find out after they've invested even more into their futile conquest.  Even if they ARE good,  They will need to be tough enough to take ALOT of abuse in the industry because in a short time, more important individuals egos  will be trashing them, telling them, "You are wasting my time and yours",  "This demo stinks, why would I wish to produce you" etc...  It's harsh, it's real..

MOST ARE SIMON with closed-mouths.  Still, the hatchet will fall..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

The ones that ask for critique generally don't get it or if they do get it, they get the 'sugar coated' version that don't do anything but gentle praise & kudos.  On occasion you'll see someone actually get true criticism be it good or bad, and the bad reviews, people call the people as mean and start big issues over it.  If you don't want critiquing, then don't allow for comments in your sub because once in a while someone is going to tell you really what they think.

I don't agree with sugar coating a performance, if they are really asking, it may be to find out their weaknesses & try to learn to get better, tonally, timing wise or whatever.  When EVERY sub gets a kudos or really enjoyed the listen, or the was great, or.....fill in kind comment here, it does nothing to help the singer improve.

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and good folks let us not forget it is tv, sure its reality tv but much of what simon does is for the camera's i hate to admit it. but the only reason i watch the first part of the season isn't for the good singers, ill hear them when they go to 12 or ten, i do it cause likes most humans i can' avert my eyes from catastrophe and some out right humor, i hate that its at the expence of others but by now i think some of the really bads ones try out trying to be bad to get the 25 mins of fame.
dd

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My heart is steadfast,Oh Lord;
I will sing and make music with all my soul. Psalms 108:1

From what Im seeing here by your standards and Simons:

Rod Stewart
Ray Charles
Bob Dylan
James Brown
Angus Young
Vince Neil
Willie Nelson
To name a few.....would never make it to the big time, and would not be a good investment as far as trying to make money in the music Biz.

Fortunate for them someone believed they had enough talent and gave them a chance and they made Millions.

Some hate there vocals & style's....But enough people loved them so much so that they bought there Records & tapes & CD's and made them Rich!!!!

So with that being said.....If you rank me a 4 in singers showcase does that mean those who rank me a 8 or 10 are wrong???

And even if you honestly think I deserve a 4 or less....Does that mean I should ignore those who keep requesting for me to sing and keep posting because they enjoy it even though you cannot stand to hear it?????

If anyone enjoys someone's singing and wants to listen to it, then I would think that even if its only one person...thats enough reason to not give up.

No one become a pro over night! not everyone is a natural!  For some it takes years upon years of practice!!!! The more you practice and keep at it the better you will eventually become.....assuming your not tone deaf and know how to stay on pitch and know how to follow the melody of the song...etc.

Sure Im a nice guy who tries to encourage those who want to sing and learn to become better.....maybe I sugar coat it sometimes....But it's because I know that the longer they keep at it the better they will get in time as long as they keep trying.

If they give up due to raw harsh honesty...How will they ever get better if they give up because someone said ..."You Suck"?????? How does that help someone become a better singer???? Just because your not good at something to start with doesnt mean you cannot learn!!  If need be take lessons from a pro vocal coach...If you want it bad enough then you will do what it takes to learn rather than give up because someone"some one person thought it was horrible" and wanted you to stop hurting there ears!!!  

Hey if you don't like it...then don't listen....But if others love to listen...who are you to get upset about it?????  are you jealous??? are you mad cause people don't see things your way????

Who's right??? who's wrong???? does it matter???  LMAO

I guess my point is this:

Alan Jackson is a very distant cousin of mine....He along with Randy Travis were turned down by every Record label in Nashville!!!!  They got there Break elsewhere!!!!

Were the people in Nashville wrong???? Well the answer is yes because look at Alan Jackson and Randy Travis now....They are both very successful pro country music artist because someone else gave them a chance even when The Nashville labels told them to give it up!!!!  LMAO  LMAO  LMAO

Now they are Rich and have the money,fame,and everything that goes with it.

Was Nashville wrong???  Looks to me like they were wrong.  :)

BUT, you have to remember most of these artists came out in a time where rock/pop music was still in it's infancy.  BTW Angus Young don't sing, he is the guitar player for AC/DC.  But many of them also had gimmicks that made their signature on the world of music:
Rod Stewart - Rat Nest Hair / one of the first 'glam' rock originators
Ray Charles - Blind Piano Player/Writer
Bob Dylan - One of the pioneers introducing folk sound to rock
James Brown - Rubber Leg Dance and showman
Angus Young (not a singer) - Oldschool schoolboy outfit on stage & wild stage antics while playing.
Vince Neil - What can I say Motley Crue - Took the limit where KISS left off & expanded on the marketability.
Willie Nelson - Writer/composer, one of the original bad boys of country, pony tail signature.

they were all terrific writers as well & wrote songs for many people & much of the older ones were singing in their time period regarding situations as well.  Maybe not Angus & Vince.  But if they were to be critiqued today as no named singers, they would probably go nowhere as singers.  There are several others as well. Mick Jagger, Tom Petty just to name a couple more.

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Not necessarily Jesse,  Reason being Rod Stewart, Dylan, Willie Nelson likely would hear...


AND, you don't think they've heard this OVER and OVER again in real ?   Yet they still kept on chugging.  ALL that go into the industry as innovators must know that MOST will be nae-sayers, they WILL be compared to those better, and when you are brand new, or different just about EVERYTHING popular sounds better at that beginning phase. It's a given as style evolves...they hear "You'll never make it sounding like that", "compare yourself to this lovely voice",
"The world isn't round you dumb__t" etc..  Nothing is sugar-coated, thing is, they take it... and consider themselves "story tellers" "Lyricists", and carve their way into the industry inspite of, and despite of what others say... So you might be correct, Simon might've trashed them, however they'd show again and again for more punishment and take it, and eventually Simon would throw up his arms, and say,




and in the industry, that's called backhanded complement from a critique. It's about the best any ever get  LOL

..  And those you mentioned did just that, granted, MOST will not... Let's take the voices that sucked initially

Mick Jagger
Joe Cocker
Jimmy Hendrix
Dylan

MAYBE even Paul Rogers and Burton Cummings... These folks,  although they became Rock and ballad prototypes for "Good" vocalists (acquired tastes in essence).. Initially Cummings had a strange nervously fast vibrato. Rogers had a somewhat strange sounding vocal timbre...but we grew to like them despite odds and flack they did in fact take but roll thru..  This is why I am saying "Either way", they must be able to take tough knocks right or wrong. Simon has also acknowledged that certain people are about the best he's heard on AI,  However, times have changed...   You brought up an interesting point tho..

Simon hears Bob Dylan for the first time...

"My God, if ANYBODY can get over that agonizing off-key nasally howling of yours, they might even hear some of those lyrics, but personally <taking out ear-plugs>, I couldn't transcend that whatever you call it coming outvie your mouth long enough to hear the lyrics"

Two ways that can be taken...

1)  As Id take it....   "This REALLY hurt,  I quit, I had big expectations for myself"

2)  The healthier approach... "I love what I'm doing, I don't care about how my
                                           singing sounds, I have a message, and I intend on
                                          sharing it.. I perform because people watch Simon,
                                           AND I love my message and singing, I feel good
                                           doing it.. I get as far as I get regardless of YOUR
                                           opinion, because I like myself, and what I do"



YOu see Jesse,  SImon is often wrong... But either way, what he's saying is what MOST thought.  How many would've believed Joe Cocker, and Dylan would've made it into the world of  innovation ?  How many innovators don't get hell for being "freaks" ?  The strong enough character would believe... "What does he know, he's only Simon,  he's telling me nothing I don't already  know, but I am prepared"

This is my point...

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Very good point Steven and well taken.  :handshake:  :)

Jesse.  Remember something we all too often forget.  Simon gets beatup too !

Sort've like in the business

"everbody plays the fool, there's no exception to the rule"

Remember the jokes about his dancing ?  LOL

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I know your feelings about this. Personally, I replace that phrase with "reasonable amount of human sensitivity", also taking into consideration that the world is evolving whether I go with it or not, and I might very well be the person who's perspective IS NOT right..I'd like to know why a term with such social stigma such as "Political" was placed before "correct" to try to convey a positive message regarding how people should act ?  Politically seems to be a horrid word to use to achieve such a meaning IMO... I never spent much time thinking about the terms origin. Besides that, I cast aside the two words which to me, form an oxymoron, "politically correct". I suppose if I went to wikipedia and looked up WHERE the heck that seemingly facetious phrase originated from, (or even what it's supposed to mean), I'd likely know why a term with such social stigma such as "Political" was placed before "correct" to try to convey a positive message to people regarding how one should act..  I never spent much time thinking about the terms origin,  I do try to ponder how *I* need to balance my communications skills in order not to be the one to hurt decent people, but also not allow myself to get stepped on..

I just call it another struggle to try to find balance in an awkward world.. Fortuneately I got a job working ALONE before "PC" stuff was forming so many civil cases due to retail happenstance.

I just call it  "Do onto others"..  Meaning, others have feelings, and societal norms are often BS... So what do I know ?  I'm just another socially retarded (I mean conditioned) critter..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

The music business is about putting in your dues and being in the right place at the right time and having tremendous luck.     Not to mention some talent.

First and foremost Simon has his own agenda going here.    He owns the recording label.   He's the boss.     He knows what type of singer/talent he wants to promote.    So for him, he's right.    Another label could very well jump on his leftovers.     The people that really suck are wasting his valuable time and he's telling them so.    "Discovering" talent is not EZ.    Talented people (like myself)  are a dime a dozen.    They are looking for a total package.   That package needs to contain an awful lot of things.    Marketability (talent, looks, ability, maturity, emotionally strong)

errr judging by a couple of winners looks dont matter that much

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

A friend of ours saw Taylor Hicks down in florida and walked up to him and ask for his autograph.  He was a real butt hole about it and said....I wish people would leave me alone!!!!

I saw his new CD in walmart the other day and his expression on his face looked like he was P_issed off at the world!!!  LMAO

I think they would have done better if they had chosen that Rocker Guy....I think his name was Chris?? can't remember his name but I think would have been the better choice even though stupid me voted for Taylor Hicks which I now regret because he seems to have a poor attitude!!!! you can't expect to gain popularity when you treat your fans as though they are low life trash.  :roll:

True,  not to mention "right time" often ends up having the life expectancy of a brine shrimp. People just don't understand certain things. Making it big isn't whats difficult. Like Golf I suppose, assuming you are a decent golfer- the rest requires the skill of finding where the lightening bolt is going to strike on the fairway.  Because once it strikes you, you acquire a new set of friends such as "Fairweather", "Stress", "pills", "Alcohol", "Superficiality", etc.  People don't think about the percentage that can't handle winning the lottery, those that don't have the discipline to handle being wealthy, often can't keep the money, quite a few end up much worse off. Some that make it big, end up as popular as Mike Tyson at a womens beauty pageant, or Mike Jackson at a cub scout meeting... (yeah,  I know that was uncalled for..but I'm bored)

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Thats ok Steven...It gave me a good laugh!!!  LMAO  :worship:

I had a sea monkey that lived for two years Steven!  As to Simon, he is the most realistic of the three judges on that panel (with Randy being somewhat ambiguous and Paula being too nice)...who wins the title is usually contentious and noticed this year more than other seasons a lot of "placement" of certain contestants, as if the producers were helping to ensure the right won (why they put their faith in this guy I don't understand; I think the premature gray hair was the selling factor--if so, Steve probably has the right take on the music industry these days).