Karaoke Forums

I've gotten myself familiar with all of the legal arguments and practical considerations regarding dup copies, shifted formats and the like.

What I have not seen addressed is the basic question of do we have the right to put on a karaoke show using a product that was meant, it seems, for private use, as home entertainment.  Sound Choice disks warn against "unauthorized public performance".  I don't know of any KJ's who public performance has been so "authorized"?

Don't bars that show sporting events nowadays have to pay some kind of "royalty" (or whatever the fee is called) since they profit from showing the event?

If this question is valid, it is a more important legal issue than any regarding dup copies, backup copies, hard drives and the like.

As has been pointed out in many threads the "Authorization" is implicit in the payment of the requisite licensing fees to the appropriate agencies by the venue owner.  KJs do not necessarily have to pay these fees if the venue owner pays them as they are supposed to.  Private gigs ... hmmm I'll leave that up to Lonman and others with more experience.

The two organizations that take care of the restaurants, bars, and most businesses that have professional entertainers is BMI and ASCAP

The business owners are responsible for paying the fees in the form of an annual payment that covers the use of Digital Jukeboxes, Bands, and other forms of entertainment using original music.

Generally the fees depend on the size of the venue, how many different forms of music or entertainment provided, and how many nights a week they provide that entertainment. Many of the bars that I perform at pay between $400-$700 a year for this licensing.

Many bars try to get out of paying for this but usually end up paying as these organizations have legal clout and can and will persue them if they don't pay.

Hope this helps.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

When the disc says permission.....I think it means exactly that.     Sound Choice or whomever actually owns their reproduction as done on their disc.   So they require written permission from them to use it publically and that might involve a fee of some kind.    Nobody does it but that don't make it right.

If the bar are paying their ASCAP/BMI/SESAC fees, then the performance is authorized!  No written authorization needs to happen, the bar (or whomever is paying you to perform) is responsible for these fees.

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As for the question of private gigs, from what I read on their 2 sites, it's generally the host of the party (the person who hired you) who's responsibile for the fees.

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I think you're all confusing what goes to the composers and publishers with the rights of the manufacturer of the karaoke disc.  ASCAP, BMI and the like do not give anything to SC, CB or any other karoke disc manufacturer.

The manufacturer of the disc has the right, does he not, to say that the disk was not intended for us to make a living off of? We don't pay anymore for the product than the hobbyist.  And without the singers and musicians on the disc, karaoke can't work!

And this thread has added the question of private parties.  Under the circumstances where there is the most money to be made by a KJ, private gigs, who's has paid anything to ASCAP or BMI?  And what legal mind decided it is the host who is responsible?  And what host or band ever paid anyone licensing fees upon doing a private party, even a big wedding?

And I'm not sure that venue owners are the only ones responsible for the fees.  They are the most visible and vulnerable to legal action!  And remember, in another thread I pointed out that ASCAP came after me for piping in music from the radio in a chain of retail stores I managed.

Actually, there is somewhat of a point to this thread.  We really don't know our legal grounds regarding anything we do.  Yes? No?

no, the karaoke manufacturer does NOT have the right to say that we can't use it for a living, or a means to make a living. That's the whole point of purchasing it.

Now they DO own a copyright (actually, a license to the original copyright) for the music, and a sync license as well.

The only time permission becomes an issue is are the ASCAP and other fees being paid for the OWNER of the ORIGINAL copyright, so that they can get their fair share.

SC and other manus DO have the ability to say that you can't use their recording to MAKE a recording, such as a demo, until you make the arrangements with them on getting a master license per use per item.

....... Hi Matt!  




Two different types of Liscensing Rights, Eric.



Mechanical Rights




These fees, (paid by lets say Sound Choice to manufacture their discs), are passed off, at least in part, to the purchaser of THEIR discs.  It's built into the cost of each disc.  



Public Performance Rights

The Public Performance Right is the exclusive right the U.S. Copyright Law gives to the creator of a musical work or other copyrighted material to authorize the use of the work in public. Every time a song is performed on a local cable program, cable programming service or broadcast over a radio or television station, there is a public performance that requires the authorization of the copyright holder. Without this authorization, which must be obtained from the copyright holder or its representative, there is an infringement of copyright.




These fees must be paid by the venue providing the live music, i.e., the bar in which you provide your show.  There are three companies, BMI, ASCAP, and SESAC that hold the Public Performance Rights for the various song writers.  Each is a seperate fee that the VENUE must pay annually.

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[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

To justify, as legal, the use of Karaoke material at Karaoke shows by suggesting that the product was purchased for use at shows is circular reasoning.  It doesn't become legal simply because a KJ purchases it and wants it to be legal to use.  Plenty of hobbyist purchase Karaoke tracks.  KJ's are not the only customers of said material.  

So, again, assuming there is some "legal teeth" to the warning on the SC disks, what is an authorized vs unauthorized public performance, legally speaking?  I surely don't know.

As an aside, it is interesting to note that the citings provided by Shotgun as to who could/would be liable to ASCAP< BMI etc. include many establishments (like my retail chain) that would claim, unequivocally, that they make no profit off of the music.  

We, however, as a group actually profit from the music yet don't feel responsible for said fees?!  It's the venue owner, it's the host of the party, it's the.....

It's not that we don't feel responsible, I personally have looked into it and have not found any organization that says I should pay fees. I want to make sure my show is legal, especially when I do a private gig.

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The intended market of large disk collections IS thre KJ.  Karaoke is not a public performance.  You don't have an audience, you have a room full of people waiting to sing.  US v. ASCAP 1941 pulled the teeth of music licensing agencies (that may have been amended by now) by prohibiting them from charging on a per use basis, and that's the only way the author of the can charge under USC 17.  The courts make the law up as they go along so it doesn't really matter, everything is illegal.

As a professional KJ I would love to have a Master License for all of my shows so that the bar owners and private function customers would not have to worry about obtaining separate licenses. But this is not the way it works....it's the venue that is responsible for the fees.

I would be happy to pay the fees (tax deductable) if they would allow me to purchase one...but no such license exists for the entertainer.

Do a little research on your own with these organizations and you will get the same answers you are getting here.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

OK .....  I have been on the phone with BMI and ASCAP since Eric's reply .... and here is what they told me and/or told me to read.

What is a public performance?
The Copyright Law describes a public performance as one “in a place open to
the public or at any place where a substantial number of persons outside of a normal circle of a family and its social acquaintances is gathered.”

Exemptions: Weddings (considered By Invitation Only), Private house parties (considered by Invitation Only) and Non-profit (see below)

Non-profit performances are exempt if:
(1) there is no direct or indirect commercial purpose; and
(2) there is no payment to the performers, promoters or organizers; and
(3) there is no admission charge, or if there is an admission charge, all proceeds after deduction of costs are used exclusively for educational, religious or charitable purposes.


WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE LICENSE?
The proprietor of the business in which the copyrighted music is performed is liable for any infringement of copyrighted music in his or her place of business. When copyright owners sue, they sue the owner of the establishment rather
than the members of a band or the DJ who actually provided the music, because  Courts will not accept, as defense in an infringement suit, a claim by a business owner, that performers were hired as independent contractors; or were not paid but worked only for tips.



This from the BMI woman I spoke with:
"The organizations that represent songwriters in the USA (BMI, ASCAP, SESAC) provide license agreements to business owners where karaoke is presented. Only the businesses where music is played are licensed. There is no license required for the KJs.  To my knowledge, mechanical or sync fees are paid by the disc manufacturer, and purchasing it gives the owner the right to use it where they want to, as long as if they are using it, the place they use it has a liscense for public performance."

Anyway..... this is what I have gathered from talking to and reading through the things they told me about.  

But.......

Anyone with more questions about performing rights organizations, their license agreements, or rights and responsibilities under the United States Copyright Law can contact the  the offices below on their own.


BMI
10 Music Square East
Nashvile, TN 37203
800.925.8451

www.bmi.com

SESAC
55 Music Square East
Nashvile, TN 37203
800.826.9996

www.sesac.com

ASCAP
AMERICAN SOCIETY OF COMPOSERS,
AUTHORS AND PUBLISHERS
2690 Cumberland Parkway, Suite 490
Atlanta, GA 30339
800.505.4052

www.ascap.com

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[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

I've read up on the RIAA/BMI/KAPA, etc. What I understand is as a KJ, we need a license to do business (state sponsored), but that the venue owners are responsible for paying the entertainment fees to the music police (watchdog organizations).  I don't have any personal experience with them, but from what I've read it appears as if they target the more visible shows/KJs in an attempt to create an example of one to deter others from illegal practices.  I could be wrong.  As far as KAPA goes, does anyone know if they're still around?  None of the material on their website is updated beyond 2004.

Has anyone had any run ins with any of these agencies?

Thanks for all that work Shotgun!


I just got off the phone with salesman at SC who had a memo regarding this very question.  He says that SC's position is that there is no legal problem with karaoke shows.  The specific wording on their label, furthermore, is required by law and is there to deter people using their product commercially (which they don't think we are), as examples: part of a recording for sale, background music in an advertisement, etc.

Exemptions: Weddings (considered By Invitation Only), Private house parties (considered by Invitation Only) and Non-profit (see below)

Non-profit performances are exempt if:
(1) there is no direct or indirect commercial purpose; and
(2) there is no payment to the performers, promoters or organizers; and
(3) there is no admission charge, or if there is an admission charge, all proceeds after deduction of costs are used exclusively for educational, religious or charitable purposes

Thank you Shotgun This really cleared up some gray areas for me with regard to gigs outside of the bar arena.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

Authorized is being played anywhere that has paid their royalty fees to the publishing companies - ascap/bmi/sesac.  Unauthorized is playing in places that haven't paid those fees.

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A state issued business license hasn't anything to do with the publisher licenses, it just means you can legally work in your state.  Legally speaking, anyone that is the owner of a business - be it a small ma & pa type or a multi-million corporation - is supposed to have one.

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