Karaoke Forums

Just because you have songs and a way to play them, doesn't make you a KJ.

The only Cavs units I have seen that were legal were the ones that Cavs factory loaded. They had licensing rights to many of the mfgs with the exception of Sound Choice at one time. I would venture to say that only a few of these units are still in operation as they were the old JB98 systems and many of them had inherent problems like overheating HD's and graphic sweep problems. These units that were factory loaded by Cavs (legally) were only offered for a very short period of time several years ago. To be honest I'm not really sure that they were 100% legal either.

With regard to a bar owner checking out the legality of the unit  LMAO Unless he has written proof that his unit (serial number etc) is certified to to have 100% legal licensed karaoke files on it. He's S.O.L.  I'm sure he will be still claiming that he is legal when someday they find a way to enforce these machines and they
(the authorities) are walking out the door with all of the bar's equipment and player in tow.

When I was checking out the legality of the preloaded Cavs units on Ebay a couple of years ago none of the dealers could provide a shred of proof as to the legality of the music preloaded....and when pressed for an answer if they were willing to give me a written personal guarantee that they were legal in case I was ever questioned they simply changed the subject. I do however know some KJs who have purchased the unit and downloaded all their own songs on it because they felt it was more convenient then dealing with the Cavs operating system vs Windows.

I know one KJ here that purchased a unit from an Ohio based dealer....still in business and quite well known. The JB98 unit had 10,800 titles with like 50 dupes total. the system cost him like $2400. This dealer swears up and down that it is perfectly legal but cannot offer any proof. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that there is no way to assemble that many songs with so few duplicates at that cost let alone provide a computerized player to go along with it. This KJ believes beyond a shadow of doubt that his unit is legal...just because this dealer says so
He is taking a really big gamble but that is his choice.

My thoughts are if you love Cavs that much then so be it.....If you wish to believe that Cavs units are better and more legal than laptop systems or any other computer then so be it as well. But you may want to do some research on your own with the sellers of the product....you may be really suprised at what you find when you start asking some pointed questions. A bar owner  is hardly a good place to get your info I'm sorry but most of them haven't a clue about the karaoke business. That's kinda like asking a lawyer how to perform brain surgury.

If you expect many of the professional KJ's on this site to agree that the pre loaded Cavs units are legal....I don't think you are gonna have too many takers here.

Are you a bad guy because you are high on Cavs?....nope  Maybe a little mis-informed on the industry but that's ok! Cause isn't that what this forum is all about...getting the information and sharing it with others.. So don't take offense at folks that disagree with your views. This forum has some really valuable information for all folks seeking to learn more about karaoke.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

many of the cavs units that "said" they had the rights to other manus, didn't!

Chartbuster for one complained bitterly when they found out what was happening to their product. Talk with Susie (Full House Entertainment)... they are on a very friendly basis with these folks!

The ONLY way the CAVS units would be legal preloaded is if you had written permission from the various manufacturers that the songs (and they'd have to be listed) were licensed. Otherwise you need the physical discs to be shipped along with the CAVs unit to have the "legal" right to have those songs. You may not have the legal right at ANYTIME to format convert the discs onto the player... as the songs didn't COME in that format, and were never licensed for that!

Only ONE manu is doing that now, and that's THM... and I think they're on the shady side of permissions ANYWAY!

The owners of Karaoke CDGs, facilities, mobile hosting services and consumers, have invested substantially in the purchase of large libraries of Karaoke CDGs. Allowing them to copy the contents of their CDGs for backup or format-shifting to hard drives would also be a fair use, and is entirely consistent both with the legislation on copying digital media passed to date, and with traditional fair use analysis ruled on by the US courts.
According to IP Justice´s legal research, CDG disc owners can feel comfortable making backup copies and other fair use copies of their discs. US Courts have also upheld the right to format-shift media by copying it to another device such as a computer hard drive or MP3 player for more convenient use.

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My heart is steadfast,Oh Lord;
I will sing and make music with all my soul. Psalms 108:1

You are wrong.  It is illegal to copy or format shift for commercial use.  IP Justice is not the courts just a lawyer's opinion.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Dennis, what we're talking about is the common sense way of looking at the purchased material VS the legal situation.

COMMON SENSE tells us we purchased the product and can convert them to our use. Nobody's out any money... the discs aren't being used for commercial gain AFTER converting... therefore the 1:1 ratio is understandable as nobody is hurt by it.

However, LEGALLY there is not one law that does allow you and I to do this action! What we're talking about is a victimless crime... and that's only if we're on the total up and up about it. No way is a manu going to come after us for legally purchasing our karaoke needs and then converting them to computer... just in legal fees and time wasted alone it's a losing battle... is some judge REALLY going to look at us and say that we're breaking copyright rules and MUST go disc only (or the format the stuff is released in)???

Common sense tells us no... but under NO circumstances should we feel we have the LEGAL right to do it. We just DON'T!

as Tim just pointed out, IPJustice isn't a legal guideline, but more a explaination that makes logical sense... but it's not ONCE been tried in court...

yikes what am to do, i guess i am now a law breaker.
On advise from folks here i have purchased Soundchoice foundation sets 1&2  and the brick sets. i paid a relative to burn them to my hard drive, and plan on useing the hard drive exclusivly. now i dont do bars or even resteruants. as i have said before when i do public events i do solo material and do a whole floor show, but on the sides for friend as part of my djing i am now doing karaoke. so who am i hurting. am i now a criminal. even if i went out of my way do pay for the disks and even paid some one to transfer them to my hard drive. seems i could still be screwed?
Dennis

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My heart is steadfast,Oh Lord;
I will sing and make music with all my soul. Psalms 108:1

As long as you truly own the original media, chances are you would never get in trouble - unless they find a way to start successfully prosecuting.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

The acesonic unit I bought a while back came loaded with songs already, But acesonic sent all the original disks that were preloded with the unit. Their as classy bunch.

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ROBDOG *WOOF WOOF*

Rob, where's the best place to get info on Acesonics?

This is the acekaraoke info:

http://www.acekaraoke.com/acesonic-kod- ... layer.html


Or here's their home site:

http://www.acesonic.com/

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ROBDOG *WOOF WOOF*

The Bar Owner I referred to (if he's the same owner being referenced, of late), owns a private club/bar that features Karaoke seven days a week. He owns the equipment and the disks.   He is the one who researched and purchased the CAVS system.  As I stated, previously, he is aware of the copyright questions and is satisfied with the answers he's gotten regarding the CAVS.  Maybe his has come directly from the manufacturer, if that makes a difference?  Maybe, he has his own rationale for deciding to get the CAVS?

I am starting another thread regarding the legal concerns we share in the non-tech forum.  I hope some of you will reply.

Now that you mention that he owns the discs that are loaded on the machine that sheds a totally different light on the situation. As long as the discs are all originals and not copies he will probably be just fine. Most Cavs setups have all the songs but no originals to back them up.

There are two basic rules of thought on this subject that are considered by many to be legal for commercial use:

1. You run your shows with Original discs or Copies of the originals still in your posession i.e. you have made copies of your originals to protect your investment and you use the copies in your show and store the originals at home. Some KJs have made multiple copies for use on multiple systems on the same nights (this is totally illegal) As long as your backup copy and your original will not be used on the same day you are fine. (wording might be tricky but you know what I mean)

2. You run your shows on PC or Digital player and you have ripped your original purchased copies to HD to protect your investment. As long as you do not copy to additional drives for the purpose of running a second show at the same time you should have no problems.

There will be those that will pop on here and say differently but these are the two most acceptable methods that are deemed by many KJ's as being reasonably safe in the legal department.

Preloaded systems supplied without the original discs...or Hard Drives with preloaded music without the original discs is flat out illegal.

You can pull a search on this forum and you will see that this subject was beat to death. Some very heated arguments have come and gone.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

Well of course he's going to be satisfied with an answer from the company that makes the players, still doesn't make it legal to do - however you said he owns the discs, as long as he don't ahve anything more on the player than he owns, chances are nothing would happen.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

What I was pointing out when I stated that the owner of the bar owns the equipment and disks is that the man is not, as some suggested, simply the ignorant owner of some bar.  

The CAVs system he purchased came with tracks on it.  He is loading in his library in additiion.

If he does not have the original discs for the songs that were preloaded then the unit would be considered illegal.

Even though he had some of his legal songs loaded on the unit from his own originals. The law is [shadow=red]not[/shadow] gonna look at the unit as partially legal, they are gonna say the entire unit is illegal and it will be confescated.

We have several bars here in my area that purchased Cavs players pre-loaded with Super CDG discs and were given discs with the player.  The dealer (a local well known KJ) told them that they were perfectly legal and that the discs would back it up. Turns out the discs are merely copies of the originals so all of the music is illegal. Many of those bars are still using the systems thinking that they are legal and are unaware of their impending liability. Some are now aware of the problem but are looking the other way hoping they don't get caught while others don't really care either way.

Whenever they do start cracking down and these owners plead that they did not know that they were illegal, it won't mean sqwat. They will find out that cutting corners on music investment will be quite costly.

I'm not saying the bar owner is ignorant but if he believes his pre-loaded unit is legal because the guy he purchased it from says so, he may be in for a suprise if he ever gets checked. My question is, do you think the guy that sold it to him that said it was legal is gonna help him out?  No way....I imagine that he is going to be very difficult to reach by phone after that.

I would love to be able to purchase a pre-loaded system turnkey without having to rip all the songs to the drive from originals if it was legal. But because of how the laws are every time I want to purchase a new system to add another show my lineup I must re-invest in original discs to be perfectly legal. The cost of duplicating my library would be about 18K at todays prices (disc prices have reduced in recent years) But they guy who buys the preloaded Cavs unit pays only a fraction of that cost. The risk for me is too great to invest in an illegal unit.

My point is that if I could go out and purchase a machine pre-loaded and have it legal I would be doing it that way, but that option does not exist.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

For whatever it's worth, I just got off of the phone with a salesman at Sound Choice who I was speaking with regarding two other matters.

I raised the question of CAVS with him and he told me that CAVS can provide the legal documentation for what they have loaded and that even Chartbuster is involved with Cavs now!

After reading your for what it's worth post I decided to give Sound Choice a call myself as the statement you gave was contrary to everything I have ever heard coming from them.

I spoke with Chris in the sales department and he said that Sound Choice has never had an agreement with Cavs ....EVER!   To verify this he put me on hold and asked the department head that is in direct control of this. He came back online and verified this. He also gave me the email address to the Production Manager if you wish to verify this it is if you wish....PM me and I will provide it to you.

He also said that if your bar owner has any SC loaded preloaded on his machine it's illegal and should be removed.

He did confirm that Chartbuster has had some dealings with them (cavs) but commented that if the documentation was not provided with the original sale, that getting such documentation from Cavs after the fact would be extremely difficult.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

I belong to the SC board as well & the studio manager and the owner Derek Slep has both stated they have never authorized ANY disc for the CAVS & if someone has a unit loaded, it is completely illegal & without authorization because they do not give authorization.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

please read my post again.  Chris is the very fellow at
SC that I spoke with earlier today. Neither he nor I stated that there was any arrangement between SC and Cavs!

AND THIS REALLY TICKS ME.  I NEVER SAID WHAT THE "BAR OWNER" HAS LOADED ON HIS SYSTEM.  IN FACT, I SAID THAT THE SYSTEM HAS YET TO APPEAR AT THE BAR.  UNTIL IT DOES, I HAVE NO CLUE WHAT IS ON THE THING.

IS THERE SOMETHING CONFUSING ABOUT MY USE OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE?