Karaoke Forums

I would be glad to send it to sound school, but this is cheaper!  LOL

If you EQ the speakers and NOT the room, then in theory you would only have to eq your system ONCE ?  On initial set up  and never again as long as your set up remains the same?  Is this true Big Dog?

http://www.eqmag.com/story.asp?storyCode=14446  -  Eq'ing rooms by EQ magazine.  This article is geared toward studio 'room' tuning, but the same theories apply to any room.

http://www.wpi.edu/Academics/Depts/HUA/ ... qhall.html  - This reference is geared to large rooms/halls/churches, but the same theories apply to any room.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/document ... 249&g=home  -  Tech tip from Musicians Friend.

http://www.sweetwater.com/expert-center ... 02/25/2000  -  Tech tip from Sweetwater

This isn't just coming from 'forum' experts.  There are literally hundreds upon hunderds of articles explaining how you use an eq to tune the room.  I'm not going to look for them all.  You can do a simple search yourself.  
You eq the speaker - YES, you eq the speaker to the room - thus eq'ing the room!  1 setting will not work in each & every room even if your speakers & everything else remain the same.  An eq is not a set it & forget it type of processor.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I have always EQ'd the Room of the Event as my speaker selection has always remained constant. Depending on the room size and other conditions I generally have to change the settings for each location even though my speaker selection remains the same.

I have other speakers but they are located in my more permanent gigs and the EQ generally remains constant due to the setup remaining the same as the equipment does not move from gig to gig.

As for the "Well Said" comments...I guess I could quote or cut and paste the comments but instead I say well said, cause I agree with the comments completely and I could not have said it better myself. It's also a good way to compliment folks.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

I agree with most , you HAVE to eq the room !!! - The speakers are of course in the equation - Same Room, Same Set UP - differant speakers would yield a differant ideal EQ setting.  Where is the POSITIVE proof the original poster has promised??

Did the BD have too much Xmas eve EGG NOG???

Well I think he's trying to prove that you have to eq the speaker - no matter what speaker.  But that's almost a gimmee, the eq is connected to the output that drives the speaker so naturally you are essentially eq'ing the speaker, but you are eq'ing the speaker to ultimately tune or eq the room.  You CANNOT have a 1 set setting for every room, if you do either the rooms you play similarly close in characteristics which don't require much change, or you have no ear for sound & don't want to mess with it.  It doesn't matter which speaker you are using in whatever room - all speakers put out different sound, certain frequencies are going to sound better/worse in certain rooms & those frequencies will need to be boosted or cut.  Some speakers work better in certain rooms.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

It's ashame that the human ear picks up certain features of music that a computer or some type of audio spectrum analyzer can't.  It'd be so much easier to balance your sound at a soundcheck if you had a meter that you could hold while standing in various locations around your sound system and some type of oscilloscope, or read-out would tell you your mix was balanced at a certain DB level, etc.  This stuff get's tough sometimes.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I still refer back to my first post on the subject intitled I EQ my speakers.     I have not changed my EQ setting in 14 years.      Read the entire description of what I did and why.    My system sounds the same everywhere.

I had an occasion to have two of my systems set up side by side once.   We did a comparison of them.      I sat in the audience to listen.   I could not tell which system was playing.    Each system was playing the same songs.    One had Yamaha 15" and horn tops.   And Yamaha 18" bottoms, One had P V 15" and horns and 18" Black Widow P V bottoms.     Different mixers manufacturers.   The amps were different also.   Each system was EQed as I described in the earlier thread.     No additional EQing was done to either system at the set up.

What about the power alley sub theory?    Bologna?   That would make everyone of us wrong when we set up with subs spread out to the sides of the stage.

Talking in to a microphone to do a room EQ isn't too smart.   Because it's only your voice.    If you were the only one singing it makes a little sense.    But you will have many different singers during the show.   Do they all sound the same as you?    And you are also playing ever different type and style of music too.   So you would have to listen to the entire gamut of music while doing your room EQ.    I have already done this by listening to hundreds if not thousands of songs while doing my system adjustments.     That makes a whole lot more sense to me.     Once you find the most common EQ settings after thousands of songs you can set it and forget it.   When I set up anywhere I know it's going to sound good.    Before, during and after  the show all I ever adjust is the volume settings.

Given room shape, size ,ceiling heights and acoustical make up of people and building materials --How is it  possible that your system sounds the same everywhere ????

There is only one answer ....must sound horrible all the time

DO YOU REALLY WANT EVERYONE TO BELIEVE YOU NEVER CHANGE YOUR EQ SETTINGS????

I don't care what you believe.   I'm telling how I do it and I know how good it sounds, everywhere.

That's how you do it, it is not right - bottom line - it sounds good to you, again, you have stated that everyone in your area uses crap "shoebox" type system, so yes even your system set up the way you describe would sound better than all of those.  If you had a proper setup ie crossover/amp for subs & properly set eq, you would be amazed at what the sound quality would if you honestly think it sounds good now.  
Several posts & threads with links on the proper way to use an eq, tuning a room, & structure, etc.  You believe it sounds good, then that's all that needs to be said.  Here's one more link that states live sound & eq'ing the room.  

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2629



Your original post has been answered with several pro tech links & tech article links.  Ball is back in your court, I will give a couple days to allow you to post any "proof" - be it a simple web article on a pro-sound site, link to a tech site or something more in depth, NOT just more personal opinion - that eq settings should be set for the speakers & not the room - if you find that, the debate will continue, otherwise this thread will be closed.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Personally,  I've always had to tweak my settings MANY times a night, depending on weather temp and little things like that too suprisingly enough EVERY little thing seems to matter... and if I am playing similar venues in size and conditions, for some reason things usually sound much different even in what appear to be identicle settings, (one place might be barnboard, the other oak), (one place a cathedral ceiling the other a low school cafeteria type setting, or perhaps an echoing gymnasium, fieldhouse, etc). Then of course there's the playing outdoors..  In such cases, More headroom meaning additional cabinets to fill out the higher wattage head needed for fuller sound, etc. The JCM 2205 (50 watt) head must instead be the JCM-800 2210 100 watt head, and the full stack as opposed to just the 1960A..I wish it was as easy as just turning all my nobs to 6, and duct-taping the panel and viola !

ADDED IN:

Oh yeah, one other thing I know *I've* at least found.  You folks work with different vocalists.  Well, If that's anything like switching guitars that means ALOT more tweaking    Certainly not less.  And of course there are the gig's playing bass... This is when it gets VERY tough... What sounds harsh, trebly, and wrong when up close near the amp,  mellows out to a bottomy bass quality 30 feet out in the audience.  I can't adjust it for how I like it onstage..  That's not accurate at all..

What it comes down to,  is there's always tweaking.  I don't have enough confidence in JUST my own shot ears...  I like someone who's skilled to be out front.. This stuff is tricky as all heck.... and ALWAYS changing IMO...

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

wish it was easy for a voice too! I would like a tweak nob specially for outdoor venues. I am notorious for being just below a note but give me a cold outdoor venue and I go sharp every time

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Yep,  and you know what's really interesting ?   When my equipment is sounding flat or dead, lacking presence, or just toneless in a particular setting, there's a desire to play sharper or tune sharper to compensate for it... Lack of lustre or brightness of strings, or dead strings will often make it tougher to tune.  Same with VERY bright trebly tinny strings.  Tuning on a bridge PU of a Telecaster is one brutal task for a Gibson humbucker player.  I was talking to a piano tuner about this too... Orchestral string players play ascending and descending major and minor scales with a slightly different fingering when the get to the 3rd and 7th to compensate for natural idiosynchracies the human ear has. Tonal and timbral characteristics not being correct, lack of balance in sound, and sound that just fly's away and gets lost... echoing off a few trees 100 yards away...make it VERY tough to perform accurately.

Balance, and correct conditions are very important, properly setup, and maintained equipment of course too....  but we know this.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

individual singers is the most challenging, steven, you are correct.  i generally set the eq once, then tweak each singer from the board.

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All work and no play make Homer something something

well actually hon I find it bloody hard to perform accurately at any given time...performing outside gives me an excuse

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

i have trouble performing outside....wait, what?

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All work and no play make Homer something something

quietly sings fleetwood mac lyrics "wont you lay me down in the long grass and let me do my stuff"

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

singly softly and sweetly will get you everywhere!

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All work and no play make Homer something something

This is a tough area. I'd need to be in dire straits (not the band) not to have a soundman/engineer during most any gig knowing what I know (and don't know) now.  Balancing your sound is a true art and talent within itself.  I can play the instrument, but that doesn't make me a soundman..  I suck at balancing a bands sound.. or a DJ's PA system... Those of you that can do it, and have an easy time of it... Hat's off !!!     Not easy !     Adjusting audio equipment isn't that easy. As someone correctly mentioned earlier in this thread, our ears tend to have certain biases. In some cases we've lost some range as we age too... Doesn't matter how good the band is or the equipment is .. because if it's set up poorly there's a huge problem.



Dang golfcourse sprinkler systems and mosquito's.  My stuff gets welts

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".