Karaoke Forums

OK, you miss read.  I go in check out the competion, get a feel for the place.  Then at SOME OTHER TIME, I go in and talk to the decision maker at the venue.

And as far as going after someone's gig....Do you shop at Wal-Mart?
In my town Wal-Mart moved in, undercut K-Mart, and now K-mart is out of business.
Oh, had another cellular store come into town, we now have 2 They are undercutting the other store.  Should I not shop around and get the better deal, or just stick with the store that has been in town for the longest?

And I don't try to get a gig, if I don't think I can offer something better.  I don't promise the world.  All I ask is to check me out, and then decide if I am better than the current KJ/DJ.  That is usually why I give them a discount for the first 2 gigs.

If I never went after my competion, I would be sitting at home every nte with a trailer full of useless equipment.

Perhaps If I lived in a place with a bigger pouplation, where there were many place you can gig at, things would be different.   In my are, I live in a town of about 5,000 with 3 bars, and all the towns within a 50 mile radius are around 1000-2000 people.  Needlesss to say, there ar VERY FEW places to gig at.  If I never went after my competion, I would be sitting at home every nite with a trailer full of useless equipment.

I believe its healthy to go around and check out competitors and see waht they do successfully in an effort to incorporate good ideas into my own thing. I do believe then in speaking with the management and leaving an info/promo package with them on file for future reference in the event that they decide to make a change(happens all the time, for all kinds of reasons). Nothing wrong with putting in a good word for yourself and letting them know you are interested and availble. Thats a sound professional and ethical business practice.

What I have little patience and sympathy for is someone deliberately undercutting/undermining/sabotaging an existing show. VERY unethical.

By the same token, if the existing show is blatently lousy then they DESERVE to be replaced. And the managment usually will figure that out--at which time you will be ready willing and able to replace them...............PROFESSIONALLY and ETHICALLY.

But again Undercutters and show sabotuers I have NO PATIENCE or SYMPATHY FOR.
To my mind it makes a RATHER POOR STATEMENT of the person's business, professional and personal ethics and character.

_________________
"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

They were looking for someone to replace him.   When you suck, you suck.  Get ready to be unemployed a lot, unless you fix something.     They didn't make him suck.    He did it all by himself.

We need to get all of our singers to complain more to the management, about bad shows.   It will weed out the losers and maybe we could get more money for our investment.      By the way the newbies will be making more than the $100 his was charging.    I'll take your job and get more to do it.


I have never under cut to get a job.   I always charge more.

Ahh.... okay ... you are right, I did misread.  I thought you'd stated that you went to the shows of your competition and DURING the show .... you plugged yourself.  

Marketing your own business is FINE ..... but as Swing Cat says ...... do it as part of a 'marketing plan'.  We have a brochure (glorified business card) that we hand deliver to all venues that offer live entertainment.  We hand deliver them ... introduce ourselves ..... say "we see you offer live entertainment, and if you'd be interested in hearing about our Karaoke show, we'd love to talk with you".  If they have Karaoke .... we tell them that if they ever disolve the relationship with the current show, and want to consider another ... to give us a call.  We DO NOT try to 'take' the gig...... sell our show as 'better' ..... or anything of the sort.  But.... yes, we do leave the information.  NOTHING wrong with that.  



Please....... don't get me started on Walmart.......  :madgo:    LOL


It's fine to shop around for the best deal.... we ALL want to get the best bang for our buck ..... but remember, the best deal ..... as BigDog has stated ..... does not always mean the 'cheapest' deal.  Undercutting is NO WAY to get a gig, IMO.  

 

Well....... I understand what you are saying .... but still ..... in a way that is trying to "take" a gig from someone... who.... if they lose it ........ will be sitting at home with a trailer of unused equipment....... know what I am saying???  And yea... maybe you ARE better than the current KJ ...... but it's better to let the OWNERS come to that realization on their own (which 99% of the time happens, all on its own) .... without the 'seed being planted' by the business that wants the gig..... IMO.  




My point, Exactly!! But.... its better that the owner came to that realization, on his own .... and then looked for a replacement (as you described in your post........ where your 'newbie'  got the gig at a HIGHER price.)  In your scenerio it was being in the right place at the right time...... not GOING AFTERthe competition.


I'm not trying to put you down, Twansenne ... but I simply DESPISE business owners who undermine others IN THE TRADE ..... WHILE they are executing their show (which I now understand is NOT what you do).  There is a new 'kj' doing that in our area, and I will tell ya.... she has stolen gigs from 2 other karaoke businesses by offering 6 hr. shows for 75.00 bucks a night!  THAT is such an INSULT to those businesses that provide QUALITY shows, sound and service.  (So far, we haven't been stung ....  thank GOODNESS we have looooooong relationships with the places who contract for our show ... and we are really considered part of their 'families').  

This practice may be working for HER ...... but in the long run ..... she'll put KARAOKE out of business completely.... and then we'll ALL have trailers full of equipment, sitting in our yards ... with no place to go!  

_________________
[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

The 6 hour show for $75 will come back and bite her in the tail.   She cannot maintain that money wise or time wise.   Sooner or later she will cave in.   She will ask for more money or a cut in hours.    You can make that much at McDonalds.

She's a hack that can't work.      So she has resorted to being an undercutter.     This is the final phase before the final failure.   If all goes as planned she will be out of the business shortly.

Do not resort to her tactics.    Keep your price up.    Upgrade your equipment if you need to.    Your quality will out last her.    Work at the quality bars.  Let her have the dives.   Screaming drunks need a place to sing too.

I 100% agree with you, BigDog.  I have never been to one of her shows... but I am told ... her song selection is very old, she takes several breaks, sings a lot  and that her sound system leaves a lot to be desired!  However, that is HEARSAY.  

We don't waiver on our price ..... We have two very NICE clubs that we've been in for years....... and we've worked at other places for a minimum of 6 weeks at various times throughout the 15 years that the music business has existed.

Our only stipulation when we start somewhere new is ---> we "live" together for a minimum of six weeks.  After that.... either may end the relationship (six weeks usually lets ya know if you  can develop a regular crowd around here and whether the club can make a profit AND pay us).

We feel we are a quality sounding show ... and we add at least 15 new songs a month ... so we are very current with song selections.  We have a VERY loyal following ..... and rarely have nights with less than 25 singers.  Sometimes we have up to 40 (almost toooooo busy).  

But still.......... the undercutting is very frustrating, even to hear about.  

And yes..... of course, you are right .... she WILL walk herself into failure ...... but unfortunately ....... she'll also leave a very horrible trail behind her ... and tarnish the reputation of KARAOKE, which is what really upsets me the MOST.

_________________
[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

And your last sentence is why I have been so adamant about hacks.   And praying for each failure.

They hurt our industry and our pay scale.    They also contribute to the "karaoke" negative image.   You will have to do some damage control.

I take no offense, but I am offended by the undercutters (people that's price is continualy lower than others).  I don consider a person that gives a discount on a couple of shows an undercutter.  But if they go into a place and say I will do it for 1/2 the price of you current DJ/kj, that is BAD, that is unlless the cureent dj/kj is getting OVERPAID, wich I have seen by a few KJ/DJs in my area.

THe OVER CHARGERS as just as bad as the UNDERCUTTERS....IMHO

Like I said, I only offer a discount for a few shows (depends on the situation), but after that I charge my FULL PRICE, and the decision maker knows this.  

BAsicaly I consider it like when you get a "buy on, get one free" offer in the mail.  THe marketers know that you probably already use their competiors product, and the only wat to get someone to try their product is to offer a discount.

We have never offered our service for 1/2 price or reduced to try it out .... but I DO understand that that is ONE way to let a business try something out that they aren't too sure about, without taking as big a risk, and I'm not at all opposed to that practice if it works for you!  And I don't think that is UNDERCUTTING either.... as long as it is a TRUE 2 show discount ... and doesn't turn out to be what you end up getting paid in the future. As in the buy one get one example you gave ... which in the end, IF you like the product, then you continue to buy it .... at the regular price.

We prefer to stick to our price at all times  ...... BUT we give them an  "out" by saying at the end of six weeks if you want to discontinue, we walk away with a handshake .... and just agree it didn't work.  This way .... they pay for what they get while they get it .... WE always get what we are worth .... but ... there is no binding obligation on their part beyond the six week trial period to invite us back.

Again ..... sorry 'bout that misread, earlier.  It just makes my blood boil to see one KJ try to get another's gig ... especially WHILE the show is going on.      :hug:

_________________
[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

I offer a reduced rate to a bar that has never had karaoke before. (Usually 4 weeks)      But if it takes a little longer, I'm still willing to take a cut (Even though I don't like it or necessarily think it's my fault or responsibility to do so).    $25-50 cut depending on the crowd size, will not kill me.   I know that if the crowd picks up my money will come to me the rest of the year.    If I'm taking over a job because they fired someone last week, I charge full price from day one.

I think the 6-hr gal will eventually disappear, but will most likely cause a LOT OF TROUBLE for the other KJ's in the area before that day comes.  If nothing else, other establishments will start to wonder why their show is 3 or 4 hours and the competition has one that lasts for 6 hours? (And the only reason the competition can afford a 6 hr show is because they're virtually getting it for FREE).

My guess is that this gal is a hobbyist and has either a small library, or worse, a large illegal one.  As long as she has someplace to sing and can make believe she is a KJ, I suspect she's thrilled!  And she would probably work for nothing, if need be, to have her own show (which she basically is doing).

No serious business person/KJ would even entertain the idea of having a 6hr show.  At $75, an owner needn't worry about how many people come in.  And from owner's viewpoint the longer the show, the better.

This is a bad situation.  Is she looking to do more than one show a week?

Think about it.   She can get more jobs than anyone at that price.   She will be able to work very steady.   She won't have anything to show for it except a lot of hours worked and no money to show for it.

So how long can you work for peanuts?   More important why would you want to?    Maybe she owns an elephant.

Yeah, $75 for 6 hours is LOWBALLING, but being a devils advocate, and probably the reason why it is being done, look at it this way....

6 hr show
1.5 hr setup/teardown

$75/7.5 = $10/hr can't make that much working a McD's, and might even get some free drinks.

And probably has an illegal library, cause there would be no way you can BUY any new music making that much $$$$.

Hi Eric..... She currently has two nights.  Had four, but lost two ... one fired her because singers complained she had nothing "current" to sing... and the other bar closed for the winter (caters to a summer clientelle).  As I said .... I haven't been to her show ... but I did hear from a host that lost a gig to her, that she wants to work 6 nights a week!!  Around here, she'll be lucky to get three steady year round gigs ... and to do THAT she'll have to do some extensive driving.  

_________________
[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

Hey Big Dog- How's it hangin? I totally agree with you on the price thing. We have acually been underbid before. I will tell you that the bar owners found out that you get what you pay for. Both times they ended up calling us back because the company that did the under bidding sucked. I will also tell you both times we did not take the gig after the fact. I state my price at the start of a possible negotiation and I do not come down on it. A lot of places say we are high on our price and I simply tell them that #1- We can deliver #2- You get what you pay for. Reading the posts about $100 and $75 a night makes me ill. Do they make that at McDonalds? ! About stealing shows.... I live in Vegas, so there are many different karaoke shows going on. We go to other people's shows to sing because KJ'S need to sing too! I think I sing once most time at ours. I know of maybe 2 other shows that we have been to that I would recomend to my friends and it is sad. About possibly taking over at one of the places that does suck.... It would be too much work to fix alot of the damage that has been done at the establishment already. I would much rather go after a place that had never had it before.
Just some comments from my own experiences and what I have learned from living in Vegas. It is a different planet here!!

Left of center.     Well speaking from experience.   It's real hard to come in and fix what some hack has ruined.   Most times the bar owners wait too long to fire them .   They let them kill the entire crowd and then they wake up and say wow we need a new KJ.     Or they will not have karaoke again and say we tried that before and it didn't work.  

  NO the $75 hack you tried before didn't work, it's not karaoke that doesn't work, it's hack KJs that don't work.

Shotgun  
I would like to believe that gal with the 6hr show lost the gig because she, in general, had nothing much exciting to sing rather than she lost the gig simply because she didn't have much new stuff.

Well..... I HAVE heard her sing ..... and she's not half bad (tho in my opinion, being a decent singer when you run a show shouldn't be ALL that important, as the KJ shouldn't be doing much singing at all.  The show is for the singers (patrons), not a showcase for a "wanna be a star singer" KJ.  Again, JMO.

But...... As I said ..... I've not heard her KJ....... so I honestly can't tell ya what kind of microphone presence she has, nor if her show is well executed, nor if is she has any personality as a facilitator.  What I DO know ...... is what I was TOLD.... and that was that she lost a gig in a place because she had little but Country (mostly old stuff) and 70's and 80's in her selection catalog .... and the singers in the place wanted some songs from the 90's and today.  And........ I have HEARD from a few singers that her sound system has much to be desired.  But.......... that is HEARSAY.

Oh well...... We just keep doing what we do!  As I said, she hasn't hurt us in terms of "gigs" ..... and I am quite sure she won't.  But....... yes, BigDog .... she is hurting the reputation of Karaoke, in a general way, which is what STINKS the most.  

Around here, bar/club owners have been hit very hard by the no smoking regulations and the new very very tough DWI laws...... so I am sure $75 a night is sounding good to them ... for six hours of live entertainment.  No one else we know will work for less than $150 for a 4 hour show.

_________________
[shadow=tomato]If you want your significant other to pay attention to EVERY word you say::
  TALK IN YOUR SLEEP   [/shadow]  

Your only consolation is that she can only work seven nights a week.   If there are more than seven bars, you're in like Flint.    Unless she has a clone in the works.