Karaoke Forums

TopherM, if you last comments were directed at me/the Fender Passport System, I have a few thought for you:
    Acquaintances of mine who know about sound systems, two of whom frequent Karaoke shows approve of the Passport 250PD Deluxe for my purposes.  Though I am now considering the 500PD Deluxe model.  
    I actually heard the Fender Passport system for the first time last week.  I was in a place I had never previously been.  The sound, I learned to my surprise, was coming from a 125PD system  It was a small venue, but it sounded very good.  And the KJ was not the least bit disappointed with the system.
    Making $125 a night ($35 an hour) after working all day doesn't really excite me.  What I am trying to accomplish is to find something enjoyable to do when I retire and that might, hopefully, include small private parties where the 500PD I am thinking about would be overkill.
    There are more KJ's out of work around her than are working - having good equipment doesn't guarantee employment.  Investing $5000 in something that might very well end up collecting dust in my garage until I retire, or longer, doesn't excite me in the least.  
    And if the Passport product line is so bad/so unpopular, I doubt that it would be one of the few systems offered at my local Karaoke store primarilly frequented by the KJ's in the area, and I further doubt that the Fender company would be constantly expanding the line.  Just the opinion of someone who owns a successful "real' small business.

What sounds good is all relative to ones own ear.  Many recommend those smaller systems because they have the it's only karaoke attitude, they don't need great sound.  I know a couple of friends of mine that work at Guitar Center - ok not proud of THIS fact -, they both HATE karaoke & will recommend small systems & convince the buyer that is all they will ever need - WHY, because karaoke killed the live music industry in the area in which they were both part of - why, karaoke was cheaper entertainment.  They don't recommend good high quality equipment that will sound as good as a live music experience - purposely & they want it to sound as cheap as it is.  Now if you know what you are talking about, then they will talk about higher quality gear, but won't push it once they find out it's for karaoke.  I'm willing to bet there are other soundmen/salesmen like this as well.

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Lonman- You're right. I've encountered salesmen like this. One has claimed to be in a band, and has tried to talk me out of a couple of things I've went in to buy.  Now, I'll only shop when I know exactly what I want, and don't ask for help from any of these salesguys (other than to get something off a high shelf  :D ) And I only come here, or another KJ if I have any questions about karaoke equipment. I have been talked into a lower quality piece of equipment, and talked out of another piece that I came in to get.  Both desicions have since been changed due to unsatisfaction on my part.

Karaoke isn't taken serious by anyone who has never experienced it, at least from what I've seen.

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I agree with Lonman: "What sounds good is all relative to ones own ear".  I don't believe that the "hearing" public is as discerning as many of you in this forum might like to give them credit for, perhaps as a rationalization for your huge investment in equipment that may be considerably more than others have spent who are getting by as KJ's and happy with their "inferior" equipment?  The KJ in my area who has the best equipment and biggest selection around is far from the busiest.  While he's been in and out of more venues than anyone else, he hasn't a following.

I think, in fact, that it would be fair to say that in most places (not all) I've been, the audience is most concerned with is the integrity of the rotation and their turn therein.  While some folks are appreciative of the efforts of other singers, most just care about their turn singing (whether they swallow the mic, scream into it,  or hold it a yard away).  More often than not, when an audience enthusiatically acknowledges an effort, it is the song that was selected and not the performance that has excited them.

And while some of you are suspect of the recommendations you have received from music stores regarding sound equipment, you have further strengthened my interest in the Fender Passport, 'cause, as I stated, it was my local Karaoke (not music) store that first recommended it to me.

One last thought - I am not a KJ - am your customer who knows more than the average customer about what you do (because I want to do it someday).  If I tell you that the quality of the sound system is not my first concern, why not poll your clientele and see what's most important to them.  As I implied, no matter the quality of your system it can't really compensate for a moron with a mic!  

Managing the rotation, controlling the drunks, being diplomatic with the little ones who want to sing and smiling through it all is what worries me most as I look at and consider doing what you guys do out there.

Most karaoke stores honestly don't have a clue on what good live sound is & they package up small systems for convenience & for more home use - not so much on the pro side, although they claim they do.  I haven't seen or rather heard a good system IN a karaoke store to date.  
I'm really not trying to 'dis' your decision, but that system is honestly not enough for most venues.  Home use it may be fine.  LIke I stated before i've known several who have bought the PD250 - from the forums and a couple IRL - they have all either returned & upgraded or added powered subs to make the sound fuller.



Actually I do poll them ALL the time on why they return to our show consistantly - have comment cards that are available & they get used often also with email as well as a web poll I occasional put up on my site, the number one reason is sound quality.  Then Host/rotation then bar atmosphere/prices.  In that order. 



All part of the business.  Just wait until someone leaning on your tv knocks it over or trips on the speaker stand.  Roatation is just a part of it, there are MANY factors involved into going pro.

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I am far from making any purchase of a sound system.  But after hearing the opinions expressed herein, I indicated earlier that I am considering the 500PD instead of the 250PD.  No, I don't want to spend $5000 to start with on a sound system and there are plenty of successful shows around here that have not spent that much either.  

I struggle in this decision knowing that it is usually my inclination to get the best I can afford, but I do not feel that way about Karaoke.  Perhaps its because I know of shows working with far less than the best. Perhaps its because no amount of sound quality is going to compensate for someone trying to sing a song they actually forgot (I've been guilty of that), or someone trying to follow graphics wherein the "bouncing ball" is not in sync with the music, or the singer who has no voice, or the singer who has no "ear" (or lacks both).

It's one thing to set up a system that is going to be used by a professional act you have rehearsed with: a band, a singer, a solo musician, it's another to have to constantly deal with the unknown each time someone new takes the mic.  And when you find someone who sings so poorly they send the audience to the bathrooms to escape, no one will say "boy, he/she was awful but we'll never know how really bad he/she was because the sound system made him/her sound so much better than he/she really was!"  And, of course, a good system can do just that!

Ok, well let's look at that.  Are those shows with less than desireable equipment successful because there are no other shows running good equipment?  Or the ones with good equipment bad hosts - I will be the first to admit, good equipment don't make a great show.  I have seen some good shows with less than great equipment, but then they were next to the only show around that area.  Bad hosts can make even good equipment sound like crap & run people off, kj's that don't know how to hook up & use their equipment properly then preach to everyone how they need to have better equipment are hacks IMO  LMAO .
Is it soley the host & no one really cares about the sound.  I've also found specidic age groups desire certain types of sound quality.



Ok on this note, better equipment with a good host running the show will usually attract better singers.  We still get our share of screamers (good compressor/limiter helps that), but i'd wager 90% of the singing crowd are worth listening to or at the very least fun to watch on stage.  
Less than quality - ok not even the word quality, let's just say smaller systems, don't have the full sound of a live experience & won't attract serious singer types but more of the drunk screamers.  This is where I feel better equipment can be a big deciding factor given the choice between a couple shows.



In actuallity, the smaller sound systems will make even good singers sound a little worse than they are,  Why would anyone want to purposely get into a system that will make them & others sound 'not their best'.

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Okay.  So far, you've gotten me to double my original "budget".  I don't know if I'll feel inclined to increase it anymore.  I'm awfully sure that I won't go beyond the $1500 the Fender system and ancillary equipment will cost.  Although I might increase my budget to $2000, accept the fact that the Fender system sounded good enough to me to keep it "in the running" (based upon my one encounter with the 125watt system last week).

I consider myself a better than average singer and I don't have tremendous expectations about sound systems.  No one I know from the "karaoke circuit" has ever pointed out to me that the sound system is the reason they like a particular show.  In fact, my son, who often goes singing with me, just called.  I asked him his thoughts about sound systems and his response paralled mine.  He said, "it can't suck" and should be set up properly.  I'll add to that, that the same sound system, at the same venue should sound the same each time it is in use (and that doesn't always happen around here).
 
I would appreciate, considering my current budget, reasons why the Fenders are not the ones to consider and suggestions of alternative within that budget.  I welcome your suggestions within those parameters.  Thanks.

Okay.  So far, you've gotten me to double my original "budget".  I don't know if I'll feel inclined to increase it anymore.  I'm awfully sure that I won't go beyond the $1500 the Fender system and ancillary equipment will cost.  Although I might increase my budget to $2000, accept the fact that the Fender system sounded good enough to me to keep it "in the running" (based upon my one encounter with the 125watt system last week).

I consider myself a better than average singer and I don't have tremendous expectations about sound systems.  No one I know from the "karaoke circuit" has ever pointed out to me that the sound system is the reason they like a particular show.  In fact, my son, who often goes singing with me, just called.  I asked him his thoughts about sound systems and his response paralled mine.  He said, "it can't suck" and should be set up properly.  I'll add to that, that the same sound system, at the same venue should sound the same each time it is in use (and that doesn't always happen around here).
 
I would appreciate, considering my current budget, reasons why the Fenders are not the ones to consider and suggestions of alternative within that budget.  I welcome your suggestions within those parameters.  Thanks.

Santa just told be I'm getting some Yamaha speakers for Christmas.. and a Yamaha 8 channel mixer/amp.. 300 watts or thereabouts..

And no, it's not for a gig.. Just home/parties..

I'll leave the question of alternatives and such to the more knowledable; I just wanted to say that I was a karaoke singer for alot of years before I even considered becoming a KJ. I actually started considering becoming a KJ because of a show around here I went to the sound was so bad, I knew I could do better. There were singers at this show that I knew sounded good, but on this persons system, everyone sounded horrible.

And I've been to a show around here where the KJ has made some less-than-good sounding people sound awesome. Again, I've heard these people at other shows.

So I firmly believe a good system along with knowledge on how to use it, can help people sound better. And it makes really good singers sound like super-stars. You would truelly be amazed at hearing the difference of the same people at different shows.

I would also highly suggest shopping around, especially on-line to find good prices on good equipment.  There are several good on-line retailers who will offer great prices and free shipping on over $99 purchases.

And the majority of the responses you have received on here are good advise given by people with years of experience in this field and are given to help you, not knock your choices. I think we all would like to go cheaper, but sometimes it's just not worth it. And just because singers don't comment on the quality of the equipment doesn't mean it wouldn't make a difference. They would definately comment if they think they should sound good, but didn't. They would blame you, not theirselves.....

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Just got off the phone with a friend of mine (a KJ with three sound systems, including the the Fender 250PD which I just found out he has).  He hasn't used the Fender much (just got it) but likes the portability it offers.  He has Yamaha speakers that he leaves at one venue (too heavy to carry around).  He has a Mackie Amp and also Bose 802's.  He says for someone of our age (and I won't be younger when I retire) go with the 802's. if I'm willing to hit my $2000 budget limit for sound, because they're better and even lighter than the Fenders.  He, however, says that if I'm not willing to spend the bucks (and most shows around here he confirms did not exceed $2000 for sound) the 500 watt Fender would work, but he doesn't like the knobs and the reverb (on the 250).  He also suggested I might consider used equipment.

For $1500 you can have a nicer system.
Start with the B-52 Matrix 1000 V2.  It's a 700 watt powered system, comes with 1 15" sub & 2 satellites consisting of 2 10" 2 way speakers.  http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/B52-Matrix1000V2?sku=606060
Yamaha MG8/2FX Mixer with built in effects.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Yamaha-MG82FX-8Input-Stereo-Mixer-with-DSP-Effects?sku=630178
Shure SM48 mics http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Shure-SM48LC-Vocal-Microphone?sku=270105
BBE Sonic Maximizer http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/BBE-362-Sonic-Maximizer?sku=180910

Right there you have a system, that will be very competetive in small-med clubs & sound fuller than the Fender system.  Minus some misc cords & the total cost is under $1100.  Still portable enough as well.

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Good sound is important. As a singer, that is my main reason to choose a place to sing. People who could not be bothered about sound either have never hear themselves singing in a good system or are themselves not a good singer.

A bad audio system do not attract good singer; only those screamers and those singers who are too drunk even to talk intelligently. That kind of place give karaoke a bad name.



I just have to say this out.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Exactly!

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Lonman, thanks for the suggestion(s) and links.  That gives me more to work with.

I suggest to anyone who visits Ft Lauderdale that there are many karaoke venues.  Check them out for yourselves.  If a show has 15-20 singers during the course of an evening, at best 10 can hold a tune, most likely only five sing well.  There is little evidence that people frequent karaoke around here because they are good singers searching out a good sound system.  Having just gotten off the phone with a friend who has been a KJ in this area for quite awhile and knows most other KJ's around town, he confirms that this is a true statement.  He also stated that very few shows around town have more than $2000 invested in their primary sound system.  He also told me he does, at one of his shows, have a couple of people coming in who told him they do so because of his superior sound system.  But, otherwise, he's in complete agreement with me.

That is the exact point: Bad system attract bad singers only. The better singers go other place.

The place that I go to sing have a rotation of 8 - 12 before 9.00pm but go up to 50 by 11.00. It is rare to hear singers below average in this place. Need I say what the system is like? Imagine 8 wall mounted speakers and 8 ceiling mounted tv screen.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Eric,    Consider this story carefully.    

I had a singer and family that wanted to get in to the karaoke business because I make it look so easy.      They got a flyer in the mail.   On the cover was a $1200 system.   It included a machine, microphone, 2 speakers, amp and some free discs.

Hey man, we're KJs.    :hi5:  :oh yeah:  

I know this because I got the same flyer.


I use 3-$600 microphones.   Their entire system was as much as 2 of my  microphones.  :shock:  LMAO  :yes:    My equipment weighs 800 lbs.     I'm 53.

Their Lesson #1.    It didn't take them long to find out that they needed to seriously upgrade their investment.

Their Lesson #2.    They have 5 singers in the family.   So each one sang in every rotation.      The word spread about them singing all the time.

Their Lesson #3.   They are no longer in business.


Your Lesson #1   If you think that quality doesn't matter to anyone.  You are wrong.    

Your Lesson #2.   If you think you can work steady and make more than the $125 a night, that doesn't excite you now, you are wrong.

Your Lesson #3.    Doubting what I and others on here, with many years of karaoke experience tell you, is wrong.

Your Lesson #4.     The $1500 investment in your new business will be a waste of money.    You may work steady.   But you won't make any kind of money to speak of.     It will be less than the $125 you can't get excited about now.     Will you get paid to sing in your basement?    That's where the equipment will end up sooner than later.  

Your Lesson #5.    Trust us.    We deal with wannabe hacks daily.      If your "business" attitude is {It's Good Enough for karaoke}    Your business income will reflect your "Good Enough" attitude.

I treat my business like it's a major corporation.    In 14 years I have made a lot of money from karaoke.    My investment has paid for itself many, many time over.    If your investment sits in the basement, the only thing it will make for you is spider houses.    Nobody is trying to give you bad advice.     Nobody wants to see you fail.   But something tells me you are not cut out to be a KJ.   Unless something changes, save your money.     You'll end up with a decent house system.    That's all.


Nobody on here, has more equipment knowledge than Lonman.  :worship:  


Don't question the master.  

There are many years of great KJ experience talking on this board.   We don't use the equipment you describe.    I hear about crappy systems everyday.   SINGERS tell me about them.     Singers know the difference.   Singers care.    They may not care in the dives you describe.   Screaming drunks is not the audience we want to attract.   You'll be the king of the screamers.   Is that the type of karaoke business you want to start and own?     Not a good kind of reputation.

Thank you Bigdog, that's sure food for thought.  But if I were, in fact, going to retire in the Ft Lauderdale area and heeded your advice, I could no longer consider Karaoke as a business for my retirement.  You know your market area, and I've been to karaoke shows all over mine.  No shows in this area have rotations of more than 20 people and most of the larger ones lose their singers half-way through the night.  You might want to say that is because no one here has great sound.  Maybe so.  I think it's because the market here is glutted with Karaoke, as well as other entertainment alternatives.  Folks may start one place and end up somewhere else by evening's end!

At one time, not too long ago, there were over one dozen significant venues in the area catering to devotees of Country/Western music/dance.  Today there is only one.  Unfortunately, the market couldn't support one dozen locations.  And please note that the remaining venue did not survive because it had the best sound system.  Next month, a new venue is finally scheduled to open.   When there are too many choices everyone suffers.

But I digress.  I am not going to make a final decision about a sound system until I review the market area in which I plan to retire, and I suspect I may find a different world there, one closer to how everyone out there has been describing their areas.

My non singers always out number the singers by 3-5.  20 singers is an average rotation.     35 is large.    Most singers won't stay around if they can't get a lot of singing.    You have to entertain the non singers, the singers entertain themselves.     People on vactaion get to bed early.  They like to get up early and site-see.    So it might not just be F.L.    Any tourist trap could be like that.    

A bad system will never hurt your business or your reputation.