Karaoke Forums

This came up in another thread so I made a new topic.


The question has been raised about EQing the speakers.      I say I EQ my speakers, everyone one else says you EQ the room.


This is my explanation.


My system contains a 16 channel mixer.    

3 cordless microphones, one announcing mike corded.

Effects, Compressor, 32 band system EQ.  

2 machines/players.

2 Yamaha 18" subs

2 Yamaha 15" mids and horn.

1 amplifier.


Every piece of equipment changes the EQ.    EVERY time a new piece of equipment is added, slight adjustments will need to be made to the EQ to accommodate the manufacturers settings for that piece of equipment.

Upon my original system setup.   I played and sang to hundreds of songs.     With the speakers facing me, so I could clearly hear eveything coming out of them.    During the listening phase, I made adjustments to the sound coming out of the speakers via the EQ settings on the mixer and the system EQ.     This is the only thing you can hear, so it's the only thing to go by.    

1.   I made sure that the signals were not clipping.
2.   The volumes of both machines sounded equal.
3.   All the microphone volumes sounded equal.

The music store guy did the original starting EQ settings.

4.   I used the EQ setting on each channel to get the sound I wanted to hear from the microphones and the machines.     So you could hear the lows, the mids and the highs, equally.     So the sound was full and balanced.     Some slight changes were made to the over all mix, on the system EQ.


After many songs and many EQ adjustments I reached my final EQ settings.   It should be noted here, that if I switch the system EQ off you can hear a big difference in the sound fullness.    Not in the volume/loudness.

These settings NEVER change.    I have played in many different rooms over the last 14 years.    I never worry about EQing the "Room."

My speakers/system are EQed to near perfection.

Once in a great while, someone will comment that a particular song has too much bass or sounds too tinny.

This is not caused by my system EQ.    The cause is the disc manufacturer and how the final mix was done at the studio.     It may have been a little bass heavy or too tinny.    NOT MY FAULT OR THE WRONG EQ SETTINGS.

Here is where the EQing the room idea has a hole in it.


Now, take my system as it is.   Without changing one knob setting or piece of equipment, except for the speakers.     The system may not sound as it did before.    It may be heavy on the bass or sound too tinny.      

WHY??????    

Because the system was EQed for the original speakers.    THE ROOM EQ DID NOT CHANGE, ONLY THE SPEAKERS CHANGED.   Changing the speakers has in no way changed anything in the room.     Same carpet, walls, ceiling and furnishings.    So to correct the problem the system needs to be EQed for the new speakers.     NOT the room.

SO as I said, my system/speakers were EQed and if I hooked up to the crappy "house" system, I would have to change the system/speaker EQ.      NOT for the room, for the difference in the sound coming out of his speakers.     The room wouldn't matter.      Same system, same room, different speakers, different EQ settings.


To properly EQ a room, one would need to use the same music all night.    Some manufacturers use different bass and high settings for their mix.     To EQ a room would take a perfect musical rendition.      Any deviation would have and effect on the sound.   Too bassy or too tinny.

My system is totally EQed for every piece of equipment in it, to sound exactly as I want it to sound.     99.9% of the songs sound just as the should.    Perfectly adjusted for the optimal sound.     Any changes in equipment will require some EQ adjustments.      Moving from room to room, requires no adjustments, ever.

....Maybe I better just let Lonman respond to this.  He can probably put into better perspective.  All I know, is that my settings are basically EQ'd for my main gig.  Depending on the size of the crowd, I sometimes have to adjust a little.  However, if I go to some other venue, I most of the time will have to reset the EQ.  You EQ the ROOM!

Kelly

Well, you may NEED to eq your speakers because they aren't properly setup in the first place, no crossover between the sub & tops so the sub is trying to reproduce much of what the tops are supposed to reproduce & the tops are trying to go into the sub frequencies, HOWEVER, with a properly set-up speaker system - crossed over & suffieciently powered is where room tuning comes in.  

EVERY room has different characteristics, tonal responses, dead spots, harsh spots, etc....a typical sound system with an eq, you want the frequency response to be as flat as possible - ie if you were looking at a spectrum analyizer, there would be no dramatic peaks or dips.  Using an eq, you would adjust for those peaks or dips either cutting or boosting in the necessary frequencies to create a flat response.  When looking at a say 32 band eq, it should be mostly flat lined with just subtle cuts & boosts in particular areas.  Over eq'ing is common practice by people who think that an eq is primarily for a fancy bass & treble control, it's not - although a properly set eq will affect the overall tone, an eq is more of a frequency correction processor to smooth out harsh or muddy frequencies that occur in different rooms.  It also can aid in the control of feedback by cutting problemetic frequencies as well.  The better the sound system, USUALLY the less eq'ing is required - again a flat response is overall goal, if you are doing drastic boosts or cuts in any given area, then you may want to look at upgrading your system.  Most common & one of the worst eq settings is the classic smiley face!  Basically it turns up the lows & highs & cuts the mids - where all the vocal range is!
Attached is a pic of my current eq settings for my current show, as you can see there are no major boosts or cuts, mostly in a flat line, but some of the problem frequencies tweaked.  The top eq is for the monitor & yes there a little heavier boosts in the bass side as they are 12" monitors, not enough power pushing them so the eq is a band aid of sorts until such time that is remedied, once I get  new amps for the monitors, the bass frequencies won't need to be turned up that high.

In PA, the room is an important part of the overall system and its EQ characteristics will have a significant impact on the sound.

How is your eq set up now?  Where are the boosts & cuts & how much?

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Now I don't have enough experience to say one way or the other, so all I can offer is what I've learned from my experience. When I first started out, I was the knob turner from hell. As I've gotten more comfortable with my equipment, I've quit turning the knobs. EQ mean Equalization, plain and simple. I started out with the usual smiley face. It would sound fantastic when I was right up next to my speakers, but when I would go to the back of the room, I was like, 'oh my god, that sounds like crap'. I started backing off on the eq, basically cutting it back to almost a a grimace if you will instead of the smiley face and things started sounding better. Now I just leave it alone and do all of my adjustments from the channel. Keep in mind that I'm only running two 15's at this point with no subs from a mixer/amp. Next month when I switch over to a full mixer and amps, I'm sure that I will have to relearn my eq a bit, but for the most part same rules will apply. I did the same thing as mentioned, I would turn the speakers facing me and think that if it sounded okay right up in my face that it would sound great to the crowd, huge mistake, and my audience let me know about it very quickly. Now I mix my mains to how the audience will hear it, and mix my monitors to what the singer will hear. I know some of you folks don't use monitors, but personally I don't really see how you do without them. Maybe it's just years of playing with bands that put me in the mind, that if I really want to sound my best, I have to be able to hear myself. It may be arrogant to say, but I'm not just doing 'Karaoke' per say, I'm giving them the whole experience, because for some folks this is as close as it will ever get to being on an actual stage. But that's just me and of course my opinions are my own, stay with whatever works best for you.

James the Lion Hearted
Maninblack
White Trash Philosopher
Humble yet Proud Karaoke Host

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I serve no man and am loyal to only one God.

Being critical of a person's success in any respect speaks volumes about the lack of your own.

Love as though you've never been hurt, Dance as though no one's watching, Sing as though God Himself were listening.

at the smiley face.  Most common mistake made by most people that do live sound.  This is a classic setting that dj's use & it was adopted by many as good sound.  Music playback eq settings are completely different from live sound eq settings.  



COMPLETELY agree with YOUR opinion!

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yeah, EQed to perfection for the room you set it in.twistys, use the twistysLOL DUH, the room didn't change eitherDUH again, take the house system to a differnet room and it would need to be equed for that roomDUH again, yes, but slight adjustment with the TWISTYS high/mid/low will get rid of the tinny/bassy sound.So when majior label bands go on tour with their million dollar stages and sound systems, they set the EQs once and forget it?  If that were true they could have sound engineres for ONE show, setup up everything, and then FIRE them after that show and hire some monkey off the street to turn it on and off.  Perhaps you could get a job a a rodie moneky.  Hmmmmmmm.....makes me wonder why bands travel with sound engineers.

Take your system, which you have no clue on how to setup, and put it in a "sound proof" room (eg. recording studio), and adjust your eq to sound good for that room.  Now thake that same system, which again you have no clue on how to setup, and put it in a gymnasium with concrete walls, wood floors, and metals cealings, and tell me it sounds EXACTLY the same.

Once again lildog steps in his own pooh.

Yep Lonman, guilty as charged...
Back in the day when I first started out with live bands, you only got your soundman one of two ways. You had some guy who had no talent to be in the band, but for some reason hung around with the band and ended up being your soundguy because you didn't have any one else. On the bright side, he usually knew your material better than the drummer did, but on the downside, he didn't have a clue as to how to run sound.
Or you had a singer who ended up running sound, only because he was the only one that wasn't stuck with an instrument while you were playing. On the bright side, he usually knew your material better than the drummer did, but alas once again, didn't have a clue as to how to run sound.  
The easiest way to set it up was run the smiley face.
It was kinda like,'hey that sounds okay, let's run with it' bingo, there was your sound.
We were young, dumb and foolish, but hey we were barely gettin paid, but gettin mega laid, so who cared......
So we come to today.....well it's pretty much same as back in the day, you've got some singer that's not stuck with an instrument, but hopefully is sober and straight enough now to be able to figure out what all those knobs and slides are for
...........but then again..

James

_________________
I serve no man and am loyal to only one God.

Being critical of a person's success in any respect speaks volumes about the lack of your own.

Love as though you've never been hurt, Dance as though no one's watching, Sing as though God Himself were listening.

This thread seems to remind me of an old saying that basically says, "It is far better to remain quite and thought stupid; then to speak and remove all doubt."

Kelly

Kelly I just gotta ammend that saying just a little to suit your avatar...its far better to hold your cro-tch and have folk believe you mask a trouser snake than to remove the hand and reveal the worm

or something like that...actually that wasnt meant to be insulting, it just sounds like it does...I was just lookin at your avatar

Duh stoopid witch  :whistle:

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

I see 3 EQs in the picture.  To me they all look like they are set dead center.   Dead center is flat.   No frequencies boosted, no frequencies retarded.    You can turn all 3 of  them off and have the same effect.   Same sound on or off.    They are doing nothing.    

No Company is selling EQs to run them flat.   If that was the case, they could eliminate the knobs and sell them cheaper.  :O

If you run a flat EQ.    You don't need the EQ.    Turn it off and on.   If you hear no difference throw it away, because you are not using it.    If you turn the EQ off or take it out of the system, it's a flat setting.   Meaning you did nothing to change any frequency.     If you push a knob up above center you added something to that frequency.   If you pull the knob below center, you took something out of that frequency.    To run all the knobs centered is the same as running it flat.   If you turn it off and on without hearing any difference, you are doing nothing with it.    You have an EQ you don't use.   It's hooked up for no reason.    You wasted your money.   The EQ was made for a reason.   It has adjustable knobs for a reason.    So if you run it flat, WHY????     You don't need it.

The only way to change the EQ of a room is to change the furnishings, the carpet, the drapes, the ceiling tile.


My system sounds the same in every room I play.    If I turn my EQ off or take it out, I hear a very noticable difference.     It is a good difference.   It has richness and fullness.      The flat sound without it sounds horrible.    

So I guess everyone changes the EQ twistys for each song, all night long?  LMAO

We had a jerk that worked for us that was a DJ.   HE thought he had to mix everyone all night long.    By the end of the night he had the system sounding so bad, I wanted to kill him.   I was ready to put a piece of plexiglass over everything but the volume knobs.  :O


I work the volume controls, period.    :yes:   99.9% of the time every song sounds good.   Very rarely does a song sound too bassy or tinny.    You can watch me all night long.   You will never see me touch a channel EQ twisty, ever.    

Why do all of the singers think they sound so good?     Why do other KJs know I have the best sounding system?    Oh I know, they're all idiots without ears.    And they can not sing.

The sound man if he's any good can set the system up once and except for minor adjustments keep it the same.    The same guitar players, same singers, same drummer, etc.   They do not sound different from show to show.    They set all of their amps and stuff the same.    They are not going nuts changing everything from show to show.    He mainly works the volume controls and does all of the hookup and tear down.   So yes they need a steady sound man.     He works with the group, knows all the songs inside and out.   Knows how to set every players settings for different parts of the song.     He is not constantly EQing all night long.

Neither am I.     Volumes only.

One would have to hear it to understand.

I have the highs boosted.     I have the mids boosted.    I have the lows boosted.

I absolutely do not like the sound of the system with the EQ flat.

I just though of a great idea.    

The worlds simplest EQ to own and operate, ever.     I'll call it the "FLAT EQ."     I will market an EQ with no adjustment knobs.    No wires needed.     Nothing to hookup, ever.     Just leave it in the box.    You'll get the same results.     Just buy it and forget you have it.  LMAO  :whistle:  :worship:

Well if look REAL close you can see where the sliders lay.  YES they are different than flat.  But since FlAT is the ultimate goal of PROFESSIONAL sound engineers, then yes I try to run as flat as possible with minor boosts & cuts in problem areas.



No they sell eq's to aide in tuning a room!  Feedback suppression & in some cases an effect.



EXACTLY, NOW YOUR GETTING IT!!  You want your frequency response AS FLAT AS POSSIBLE!!!!!  If your eq is set flat, then you are correct, yo don't need it at all, however even though there may be SLIGHT cuts on mine, if those cuts weren't there, the room would sound like (@$%&#!)!



This is true as well, but since most rooms don't change their decor, the only alternative is EQ THE ROOM!  You obviously do not have any sound engineering experience to know this!!!  EVERY room has difference acoustics & eq settings will affect the sound - ask ANY professional sound engineer - not just the ones here that have that experience!




Because you trained YOURSELF to believe what sounds good.



Exactly - even LIVE sound engineers change those little twistys all night long as the room acoustics change with people!



Adjusting for each singer - gee what a concept!




Well we obviously CAN'T do that as you prove absolutely no places you play.  So ALL of your arguements go right out the window. 



We can only go by what you say & the lack of experience you prove here.



Being I run sound as well, guitar players tones don't change, they are set from the start.  But they do get re-eq'd each show for the room they are playing in.  I've been running sound since I was 16, room acoustics vary in EVERY place - AGAIN ASK ANY SOUND ENGINEER!



Beginning to understand why you don't want to prove your locations!



Where would ONE need to hear it to prove it?????????



All 3 boosted, sounds like you can do without an eq as all you are doing is boosting everything - get a premamp!



Probably because the room characteristics need something other than a 'flat' eq, I never said a flat eq - you want to run it as flat as possible, I said a flat frequency response - which is altered from the eq.  If that means cutting & boosting certain frequencies, then that's what needs to be done.  I NEVER said run the eq flat.  I did say the ultimate goal is to have the flatest frequency response.  That does not mean run the eq flat!  Again, the pic I showed of mine - even though the changes may be slight, they are there.  The eq is run as flat as it can be, but ther ARE cuts & some very slight boosts in this set up.



When you actually have a great idea, we might recognise it!  So far there hasn't been one to date.  Just knowing your system & the way you run it.........throws me to the side, you do not know what you are talking about in YEARS of PROFESSIONAL sound engineering.  You are basically saying that pro sound is stupid & should be run your way!  1 setting for everything & everyplace. Again, it goes to show just how you have your system set up with no crossovers & 1 amp.  Right there shows no experience.

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1.  When you cut out the EQ do you hear [highlight=crimson]any[/highlight] difference in the sound?
2.  Do you like the sound coming from every microphone, the mixer, machines, amp, speakers, etc, without any enhancement?


I know that everything in a room has an effect on the sound.  

I also know that you would have to hear my system to know how good it sounds.

I know everytime I add a new piece of equipment, the sound changes some.    This is corrected by the EQ settings.     I may have to add or subtract some bass or mid or highs to get my desired sound.     The sound  does not vary greatly from room to room.      Nothing ever sounds like it's out of adjustment.

I make my adjustments by what I hear.   They are not made based on the proper mechanics of how things are suppose to work.   Again, hearing is believing.    Every time I play a karaoke song, I can immediately hear the original singers voice in my head.     I know exactly what the reverb sounded like for that song.   So my first adjustments are to the reverb and the volume of the music and the microphone.    No EQ settings will need to be touched.

I know if I take out the EQ, it's sounds BLAAAAHHHH.      It sounds empty.   It has no fullness.     No richness.      I hate that sound.      I want to hear the highs, the midrange and the bass.   Without any EQ, I don't hear them, like I want to.     I know what I like and I know how to get it.     It may not be the book learning way, but I like the sound and so do many, many others.    And I'm telling you straight up, I get it without all the fuss you go through.     Volumes only.

Lon why are you wasting your breath on this guy (trying to be nice here).  It's obvious he thinks he knows what he's doing when he doesn't.  I bet he believes that there's no difference in sound between a place that's empty, half full, and completely full.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

That sounds exactly like the start of every karaoke night.   Do you change the EQ 3 times during the night to EQ the room again and again and again?    And exactly which frequencies are you going to change throughout the night?    Where would you draw the line?     OK 20 people time to re-EQ the room.     Ok now we have 42, time to re-EQ the room.     Opps, 1 left have to take it back to where it was.        

Someone else doesn't make sense.  :whistle:  :shock:  :O

My system is no where as sophisticated as many. My main gig is in a small bar and currently my  system is plain and simple - AMP  / 15" speakers / Mixer with 7 band eq plus 3 on the channels.  I'm running no subs or monitors. ( reason is venue is small and the set up allows the speakers to be behind the singers off to the side )
IT IS JUST THE WAY IT HAS TO BE , due the ROOM , Poole table , sliding doors to the back room etc. Not Ideal but HEY ..what can I say - ANYWHO

I understand that MUSIC playback EQ'ing is differant than LIVE instruments etc.
BUt KAROKE is BOTH - SO starting out with a flat eq on the 5band and the channels at 12:00 - What is the best way to start to EQ? -

Do you use the 5band for the BEST music sound ?
Do you use the 5band for the BEST vocal sound ?
Do you use the CHANNELS eq's first and then tweak with the 5band ?

Behringer 1222fx - Mixer
Yamaha SV15 IV-Speakers
Crown XlS 602 AMP

I use 2 differant MICS both okay sounding but very very differant sounding
Sennheiser - E822
Behringer - XM850

Any information would be appreciated ( Yes I know a 31 band eq would help and I'velalready tried a BBE and didn't like it ) So let's keep it simple, and NO DOG POOH advice    :shock:  :shock:

I agree that every song is different and you haev to make changes the larger the crowd gets.

HOWEVER most of my settings never change. I bypass the mixer EQ and EQ each channel separately.

My vocal EQ never changes. The volume never changes either, so I just have to adjust the gain on the mic channels during the show.

My filler music EQ never changes EXCEPT I boost and cut the bass as appropriate. I also have to move the volume up slighty as the crowd gets bigger.

Now what does CONSTANTLY change is my eq for the karaoke music channel. Like you said before, there is absolutely no consistency in karaoke discs, even sometimes on the same disc. Also, why would you use the same settings for a country ballad as you would use for an upbeat dance rap song (I know, BD, you don't play that crap, but you should get the point)?

I pretty much have the basic EQ setting for most of the popular songs memorized, i.e., I know when my SC version of Redneck woman comes on, that that song plays a little hot so I have to cut the high/mid a bit. I know that when my SC version of Rapper's Delight comes on that it plays cold so I am going to have to boost everything, etc.. Otherwise, I start the song and have it EQed properly within about 5 seconds to give my overall show the same sonic consistency despite the inconsistency of the discs.

One thing that aids GREATLY in this is that I have my own personal monitor separate from the singer's monitor that I run the overall mix through (one of those 100 watt powered Fender monitors for me, yamaha BR12 for the singer). That way, I can hear the overall mix and adjust accordingly, since I know that the only factors that are going to need adjustments are going to be the EQ on my karaoke music channel and my mic gain for the singers.

Regardless of whether this is the "proper" way to do things, it works perfectly for me and keeps my sound quality and consistency top notch!!

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C Mc
KJ, FL

Hmm... Maybe it's time to upgrade your "killer" system? Have you considered wearing a hearing aid?  LMAO

Well I though I already answered it, but YES when I bypass the eq, you CAN hear a difference, those problem frequencies return & make the room sound like crap.



Every mic has different tonal characteristics by themselves - this is eq'd by the channel strips.  Every mixer has a different tonal characteristics, which is included in eq'ing the room.  I've owned several different machines, granted most of them Pioneer, but even the other brands - even the VP machines i've tested all pretty much sound the same.  Amps that push proper power, require less equ'ing than an amp that isn't sufficient for the speaker.  Speakers are another factor in room tuning & how much eq will be needed, the better the speaker system, the less eq'ing is needed - crossovers also play an important factor in how much eq'ing is needed.




Mainly to teach the newbies the correct way to run sound & not the BD way which is completly wrong  :yes:  You can do a Google search - well anyone - on how to use an eq & eq'ing a room & guess what, there is not one that states to leave the eq the same from room to room NOR boost all the sliders.  Again I am beginning to understand why he doesn't prove his where abouts.  

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YES, the eq gets adjusted ALL NIGHT LONG for each & every singer, but not on the main eq, once that eq is TUNED FOR THE ROOM, that stays in place, those little twisty knobs on the board marked high, mid, low are the ones that get adjusted all night long for each & every singer.

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When setting your main eq for the room, all other factors on the board or any other processor (effects) should be off or straight up.  
The eq built in the mixer is really not good for much except a couple tonal adjustments.  Anything smaller than a 15 band ARE basically fancy tone controls - I still wouldn't put much BOOST on any given frequency, boosting frequencies without a way to compensate for the volume increase is a way to blow your speakers and possibly amp - I would probably do a slight boost on the 63, cut the 400 hz a bit, MAYBE the 160 & 6.3, but again that eq is really to small to 'tune the room'.  My previous explanations are for 31 band, although a 15 band could see a little benefit as well.

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