Karaoke Forums

Nope, I stand by what I say. Your solution is great for a guy with a laptop that wasn't factory configured for pro audio(expensive), but it doesn't match the dynamic range and signal levels required of a true pro audio interface like the Delta 44 or 66.

your SoundBlaster is intended for music, gaming and movies, and designed to interface with home/consumer level audio components and also computer speakers, not pro level audio. If I had a laptop, then I would select it or pay 200 bucks more for pro level.

It is a great solution for the guy who needs to made an audio/visual presentation in a corporate boardroom when connected to a big screen and surround sound system, but not in a nightclub connected to a pro mixer and PA.

I'll keep it simple...if it's got RCA jacks and 1/8" jacks, it's consumer stuff....If it's got 1/4" or XLR, it's pro. Yeah, you see RCA jacks on mixers...They are there to allow you to connect the few consumer grade items a guy might need to connect-a CD player and such or a tape machine.

Quote from the Rane Audio School of Pro Audio:

"-10 dBV Standard voltage reference level for consumer and some pro audio use (e.g. TASCAM), equal to 0.316 Vrms. (Tip: RCA connectors are a good indicator of units operating at -10 dBV levels.) whereas +4 dBu Standard pro audio voltage reference level is equal to 1.23 Vrms"

There you have it....0.316Volts RMS vs 1.23 Volts RMS is a huge difference when you are talking audio interface.

Here is another quote:

"Line level and consumer vs. pro: "Line level" can refer to either consumer or professional level. Consumer equipment transmits audio signal at –10 dBV ("consumer line level" or sometimes "instrument level"), whereas professional equipment uses a hotter signal of +4 dBu ("professional line level"). Many interfaces and mixers have a switch between these two levels so you can match the signal levels of your devices."

So if you are lucky and your mixer has a +4/-10 switch on the card input, then you are good to go, but if your whole soundcard operates at -10 dBV, then even tho it will connect and you can use the little switch on your mixer (if it has it), you are still being choked by a tremendous loss of dynamic range from the consumer grade soundcard.

Trust me, I love you guy, but there really is a difference, and you really can hear the difference once you compare the two.

Here is yet another reason to go pro:

"Most consumer devices are unbalanced, carrying only the signal and a ground, as on stereo minijacks and RCA plugs. Because they're used in fairly simple setups with little wiring, manufacturers can save money by not worrying about creating balanced connections. But when wiring covers longer distances, connections become more prone to noise, so pros prefer balanced connectors like XLR and TRS."


Please understand that the words 'consumer' and 'pro' don't describe a level of experience, instead they define at what electronic level gear operates at.

If it makes you feel better, one day all gear will be pro level....The industry is moving to remove the differences in levels so that pro and consumer stuff can all interface properly.

if what you're saying is true, even the karaoke PLAYERS that use RCA connections aren't "pro level"

Name ONE player that has 1/4" connections (which I've heard aren't as good as XLR anyway) or ONE player that has XLR.

RCA for years has been the standard for pro audio from playing devices.

Am I saying that you're wrong? No... but I am saying that what I'm doing, for playing karaoke in a bar or at home is just fine... just as much as playing the devices that hook into a mixer with RCA connections. Most people that use their Mackie boards use RCA to 1/4" connections to patch into the boards...

Proves his point.  

The mixer is 1/4 in inputs, not RCA.  

You have to use an adapter to go to the pro side from the consumer side.    

Every karaoke machine I have ever seen has been crap.   Not something built to handle Professional abuse, such as we put them through.

From an engineering or tech aspect I can change the input and output voltage or impedance requirement on anything I use. If it needs modified to meet my requirements I can do that too. Todays consumer is better than yesterdays professional.

As far as rca versus 1/4"  is concerned if something is hooked up on a daily basis 1/4" is preferred. I do prefer all the same in a setup no matter what they are.  Certain things in my rack I have hard wired. If I really want to I can change a plug or jack from rca to trs on a cable or chassis but it doesnt change the quality of the sound.

_________________
Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

Here ya go....read down to the part about 'level translation', see how the particular device is configured and at what levels the inputs differ from the outputs.

http://www.aphex.com/228.htm

http://www.aphex.com/pdf/228/Aphex_228_cutsheet.pdf

You are most correct that all players and even recording decks now have RCA jacks....And you are also correct RCA jacks have been the standard for recording devices for years now...Blame that on Tascam, they were the frist to offer consumer priced recorders that would interface with consumer grade equipment, and pro equipment by using adapters and special transformers.....

Mixer makers quickly added RCA jacks to support Tascam devices, but not all mixer makers added the ability for you to select -10/+4 dB at those inputs/outputs. If you are one of them, then consider purchasing the interfaces that will correct the imbalances.

When you are talking soundcards, you really need to get one that is properly interfaced with your pro mixer.

Just go listen to the difference!

Are you guys telling me that there aren't and cdg players with 1/4"? They all have just RCA? That seems odd. Surely there are some.

Also, for that M-Audio Delta 44 I can just plug a mic straight into it right? In other words I don't have to go through a mixer first to get good sound do I?

Bill

_________________
The Truth Is Out There

Yes, there are no cd or cdg players with 1/4" jacks for less than 400-500 bucks.

No, you cannot plug a mic into the Delts 44, you need a mixer for that....OR you need a different pro interface with quality mic preamps like this:

http://www.zzounds.com/item--PRSFIREBOX

Here is one with balanced XLR for only 600 bucks

http://www.zzounds.com/item--TASCD01UPRO

Keith,

I this discussion you have been talking about setup a karaoke home system with the m-audio delta 44 card. is there anyway you can provide a drawing showing all connections?. I also want to use a computer karaoke system for home use(no shows). I need to know if the audio output of the computer is connected to a mixer?. I also want to use wireless microphones, do I connect those to the mixer and not to the computer?. I am confused, I really would like to see an schematic of the whole picture with different options, and brand names of mixer. For example I have seen a MIX800 Karaoke mixer from behringer, is this something I can use?, or the BMB DX-3000 KARAOKE. Are this options I can use at home?. I don't want to record I only want to play the music and audio from the computer, and the vocal from the microphones.

Knightshow, can you provide schematics of your setup?

I really appreciate in advance you expert advice.

knightshow,

Can you tell me tell me how can I get those speakears you said you have and bought them from that guy in Portland?

They're from a company called JaMac.

Ron is the owner.

(503) 252-2929 - 8600 Ne Sandy Blvd, Portland, OR

I called the other week about getting a second set of the speakers. (My edit on my post was premature... we had RENT to pay! !)

$120 I think for each speaker. He'll ship them without the woofer installed, but it's a simple three screws to install them. The floor monitor is the same speaker as what I use, he's just made them with a fifth angle and some feet on them. Will put in 1/4", banana clip or leave the regular red/black wire connections.

If you have any questions, email me. And tell Ron that Matt said hi!

Make certain you tell him this is for live mic, so you get the right bass speaker !

I think we can do this without a drawing...it's really pretty simple.

First install driver for Delt4 44......then install card and connect the cable and breakout box to the card....power up PC and let winduhs find the card.......

Patch two regular balanced(TRS) 1/4" patch cables between the mixer and the card breakout box.....Select an unused stereo strip on the mixer and plug in the cables there....then plug the other end into the #1 and 2 outs on the break out box.....now you are ready to play music from your computer thru your mixer and PA.....Really simple, huh?

If you want to also record into your computer, just get another pair of TRS patch cables and connect the mixer outs to the break out box ins..... or you can use mixer alt outs or even the control room or headphone out on the mixer......After that, You are done.

The card supports 4 ins and 4 outs......That two stereo pairs or 4 mono's...really simple and no unneeded extras to pay for.

The software that comes with it is very simple...it provides an onscreen patchbay/router and a moniter/mixer.....Those are all you need to setup the card properly...you set it once and forget it, then it drops down into your task tray.

To record, you will need either the free recording software that comes with the card or one you select yourself....Tha ASIO drivers that come with the card are audio industry standards used by the even largest recording studios.

Keith, Knightshow,

Thanks for your input.
Keith, how about the connection for the wireless speakers?, do Y connect them to the break-out box of the delta card or to the input of the mixers?.

Thanks for your valuable input, I will look forward to buy the delta card. As for the mixer, can you recommend me a bran/model that I can use at home?.

Thanks Keith, any recommendation for a mixer for home use not too expensive?

un-powered mixers no FX
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ ... sku=631238
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ ... sku=631236

un-powered mixer w/ FX
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ ... sku=631258

powered mixer
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ ... sku=631240

package deal
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ ... sku=631261

NO, I don't work for BEHRINGER, I just use and love their equipment

Thanks again my frien I really appreacite it!

Something else you can do with the delta 44.. Go into cntrl panel sounds and audio devices under the audio tab select m-audio 3/4.. Then if you are using winamp for karaoke go into options plugins output direct sound and select 1/2  The run 1/2 into your karaoke channels on the mixer..  On another winamp leave the direct on default which is 3/4... Then you can play fill or dj on that player and have seperate mixer channels and the ability to apply more or less FX..  Actually you can use media player or real player and do the same thing.

With the selections in the cntrl panel, the m-sudio cntrl panel and connections in the rack you can have any combo you want.

_________________
Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

Thanks guys for all your input. I will wait until I get the Delta 44 Card with the behringer mixer and provide you a feedback of my tests.

Hi:
I have a home audio system with the following:
Adcom Preamp+Tuner 5 channels;
Adomc Power amp, 5 channels;
Polk Srt speakers system; and
I just bought a Vocopro DA X-10 Mixer with vocal enhancement and a Korea Karaoke DVD with MIDI comp.
The Vocopro DA X-10 mixer has 2 outputs, one is " Amp" and other is "Rec. Dev."
I like to connect the mixer to my existing system. As I read your ideas and opinions, I just wondered whould I connect it to my existing system or just buy a separated amp and speakers for my Karaoke.
Thanks in advance for your reply...Have a great day...