Karaoke Forums

Hello All,
I'm new here however, not new to the Karaoke business. I currently run/manage a Karaoke business in Texas. It is entirely CDG based. Business is good (5 nights a week) with plans to add a second show. I had planned on converting the entire thing to a computer based system using Compuhost. I have done extensive testing and think this would be a change for the better.

To be clear the conversion would include ripping all existing CDG's to the hard drive. Once the disc's had been copied to the hard drive I would no longer use the CDG's, but maintain them as proof of owenership. Well.....well.....well......this is where I'm confused. In some part of my websurfing I came across articles which implied this may not be legal, so several clicks later I find myself at the KAPA  site which states emphatically that this is not allowed.

Quote from the site:
If I own my own discs, can I load them onto a hard drive to play them in a show, etc.?
No, you MAY NOT load songs from other manufacturers on your hard drive.

So what the heck? How are so many KJ's going to computerized systems? I can't believe that those that change over completely abandon their existing CDG collection.

Can this be true that I must repurchase my collection when the resulting show is the same?

Sorry if this topic has been covered before.

It is one of those grey areas in the rules. While it is TECHNICALLY by the letter of the law illegal to run a computer based karaoke show EVEN IF YOU OWN THE CDGs, the spirit of this law is really to keep someone from loading their one set of CDGs onto multiple hard drives. Basically, if you copy your CDG collection onto 1000 hard drives and sell those hard drives but they don't catch you selling the hard drives, what is to stop you from saying you work for so-and-so when they ask the guy who DOESN'T have the CDGs in his possession when they find him??

Think of it this way: If you upload your favorite nirvana album onto your computer so you can play it on your MP3 player, no one is going to care. BUT if you load your favorite nirvana album onto your computer to give to your buddy that didn't buy the album, then it becomes illegal, because they can't differenciate between you sharing it with one of your buddies and 20,000 of your buddies. The guy who didn't pay for the album is still in possession of the album and the band that created the album has suffered some degree of financial loss because of you.

By the spirit of this law, if you are running ONE setup with your ONE set of CDGs loaded onto a hard drive, no one is going to prosecute you for this.

They would, however, go after you if you own ONE set of CDGs and copy them onto TWO hard drives for separate rigs and shows, as this is exactly what they don't want. It would be like if you made 15 copies of your CDG collection onto CDGs and let other KJs in the area (whether they work for you or not is irrelevant) avoid having to buy these licensed CDGs and just get them for free and make $$$ off of them for free.

So the simple answer is that you will be in the clear if you have your CDG set running on ONE rig, because you are only licensed to run them for one rig, but the second you have ONE CDG set running on the hard drive of MULTIPLE rigs, you are then breaking the law as it is intended.

Make sense?

_________________
C Mc
KJ, FL

Couldn't have summed it up better!

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Makes perfect sense. That is how I would view it, but technically still not legal because it is a sound recording. Thanks for you input. I wanted to get the general "Feel" of the other Pro's here, because making a conversion to a computerized show represents a large investment in hardware and time to get it all working.

My CDG's are bought and paid for, but some are seeing some age. Tired of all of the problems associated with handling so many disc's.

I just started having second thoughts, as to the feasability of this, and how many KJ's are in this same situation, and choose to go computerized even though it is "technically" Illegal.

Is it legal ....NO (according to the fine print)

But then again the speed limit here in NJ is 65mph on the major highway
THAT'S THE LAW --Try to find someone going 65mph !!!!!  
You won't get a ticket even doing 70mph ...But driving 90mph--you'r asking for trouble

SO!!   convert your cdgs to one (maybe 2) computer gigs (1 for back up)
I'm sure you won't get busted.  --Take that same hard-drive and sell it on ebay
10 or 20 times ...and your asking for trouble  ..and will get it !!!

That's an iffy statement in itself.  Too tempting to use two working computer rigs - even if one is technically for back ups.



Or use more than the 1 set be it the computer or discs - one or the other, not both!

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Good job TopherM!

Kelly

Topher really did do a great job of describing the situation.

All I can add is a vote of confidence that what you intend is acceptable.

You must remember that for anyone to be convicted of most anything, they must show that you had 'intent' to break the law, and they must define the 'spirit' of the law you 'broke'....If a law that says 'Thou shalt not spit on the side walk' is broken by a guy suffering from smoke inhalation, then you can believe he won't do any jail time once it is all sorted out.

Laws are sometimes difficult to write in words that fully define their intention....That's why we have judges.....So pretend you are the judge at all times in everything you do including computer karaoke....and be honest with yourself when you do it.

You also need to remember that karaoke is a whole industry...It is made up of not just KJ's, but all the folks who develop, produce and distribute the music and equipment necessary to provide karaoke.....Like any industry, the technology evolves and the industry and it's laws and regulations must also evolve along with it.

If at some point in that evolution the industry hits a brick wall due to how a law is worded, then the industry will scream for it to be reworded....No one is screaming yet that what you read on KAPA needs to be reworded.

That's because no honest KJ with just a single copy of their legal cdg's on a single hard drive has been prosecuted. Nothing KAPA says has stopped the evolution of commercial computer karaoke nor would they dare try.

So go ahead and make the change to computerized karaoke. You go ahead and evolve like the whole industry is evolving or risk being left behind. The words of the law will eventually catch up.

KAPA, RIAA and ASCAP are not about to waste money attempting to prosecute you when they cannot show you had dark-hearted 'intent' to break copyright laws.

You should burn all of your discs to a hard drive and mail it to me for safe keeping.

If you link to the KAPA site you will see they have not updated since 2004....There are also no links to contact them. They have become a toothless tiger.

If you link to KAPA'S 'reporting' page you will see the addresses of most CDG manufacturers and instructions on how to report a violator to the manufacturers...But KAPA then explains that the makers probably won't followup for various reasons.(costs too much, and most KJ's ain't got a pot to pizz in much less pay court ordered awards)

Then if you go to the MTU site(the guys who sell Hoster and premade Hosting computers), you can read their legal info where they claim it's ok to copy your discs to a hard drive or to make a duplicate for safe keeping....Yep, you got a company selling software and devices that are designed to break the very laws that KAPA threatens you with, so who do you believe?

So, if anyone here can post me a link (that works)to the KAPA guys, I want to ask them why they say you can't place your music on hard drive, but MTU says you can.

In my final analysis, it looks to me like CDG makers only want to sell their CDG's, and they don't want them pirated and passed around.

KAPA sprang up at some point and convinced the makers they would act as the legal bully and put a stop to piracy if the makers paid them a fee....So early on, the makers hired them, but eventually the makers said screw it and gave up on KAPA, and KAPA has now become a toothless tiger with an out of date website.

Bottom line is you KJ's need to keep up with tech and most of you will migrate to hosting computers eventually. Yeah, the door is open for you to steal music, but I doubt most of you will do that. The door was always open even if you used CDG's and old fashioned players. Computer hosting doesn't necessarily make it easier to steal. You are either a thief or you ain't.

Reading MTU's legal page makes many folks feel that they can remain legal only if they use MTU software and equipment...Well, that kinda warm n fuzzy stuff ain't proprietary to just MTU....If MTU can skirt the law, then so can you. You don't need their software or hardware to be as legal as their customers. You are just a legal running a homebuilt using Winamp as any MTU customer....Just make sure to refer to MTU's legal homework if someone sues you.

MTU claims they hired a lawyer to investigate and their lawyer says it's ok to make a backup copy of your CDG's and to even host off your hard drive....So that means it's ok for anyone not just guys who own MTU software and MTU hosting computers.

So Elvis, you go ahead and keep calling anyone who doesn't use MTU a thief and a >>>>head....I call them savy and wise.

You go ahead and think MTU's KMA format sounds better just cause you paid 200 bucks for it. You go ahead and think you are protected from thieves cause you run KMA format. You go ahead and pay for stuff we get free....And you go ahead and get angry at yourself for believing all that crap-just don't take it out on me.

Elvis, you got all your music locked in on MTU KMA format....I don't....Mine can be played anywhere-by any other software available and what will become available in the future.....I ain't gotta re-rip any of it.....I'm dancing on my my toes, you are locked in.....And I did it for free....Is that why you hate me so much?

I want to add......

If anyone here can suggest a method....

For a way that karaoke songs can be legally purchased and downloaded, and then NOT pirated, please offer your suggestions to the makers of all karaoke discs.

Presently, MTU is trying to sell the idea to the CGG makers that they can key code song sales in a Ipod-like fashion where the songs will only play on players where owners have kept up subscriptions fees and cannot save their purchased songs in perpetuality...Where if they stop paying the subcription fees, their music becomes unplayable...This will spell the end of published CDGs and force all KJs to download music that is subscription dependant.

I'm thinking this method is too restrictive and will eliminate competition and force prices too high....MTU is positioned to take the lead in this Initiative.

If this happens, you will be forced to pay not only subscripiton fees to keep your music playable, but also forced to purchace licenses from guys like MTU for the software to play the music.

Wake up folks. Give some ideas or be subjected to what is coming.

Isn't that the whole point of selling CDGs, CDs, books, or any other intellectua property.  You think they should just give it away or not be upset that they are being stolen from.

_________________
You can be strange but not a stranger

Not fair.............you read too fast.

I'm all for protecting copyright.

So why don't the discs companies have a pay for download site?    Pay a dollar less for the down load, than the disc.    What's the big deal.     They could be doing it.

It works for software developers.

Elvis says MTU is trying to fashion such a deal, except the files would be coded to only play in Hoster and would also be encoded to where you couldn't copy them....You see where that would lead....It's an ever-narrowing road leading straight to MTU's bank account.

We are better off with CDG's that we can actually hold and call our own for now.