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There's no difference.  Both are as logical.  There's always a helpless child in us that's scared of unknowns. Needs to look towards some supreme "parent" for an answer whether an answer currently exists or not, it's all we know. Most deal with their mortality, by denying it. The existence of "death" makes life appear absurd, and vice versa.



How can we be ?  When suffering believing "It will pass" is at times all that helps us thru the acute episode. Pain is usually temporary.  How do we benefit from "being positive" a good cycle will end ?  Is that really a healthy awareness whether realistic or not ?



We must recognise these relative states, in order to understand them, but we can't understand or deal with certain extremes. Ominously evil (for instance) isn't something many can deal with, and in life, there's a lot most just can't allow themselves to ponder or even feel for any duration, certain things that are experienced or witnessed are too profoundly painful.





And I believe most attempt to change the will of another on an almost daily basis. I believe most people are selfish and controlling.

Lastly,  I don't believe in a "soul".  It's a fancy term for an area of emotional need we have, a need inherent in most species. To survive, and stay attached to others.  Another means to deny the ultimate separation which is death.
We create what we must psychologically, to emotionally ground ourselves, and try to find some meaning in an existence that's absurd. Creating a supreme 'ghost obviates' death (GOD), similarly we look to metaphysical areas and create things such as a "soul" too..  Yet we haven't a clue what that is.. We say it's a third state.  It's just an element of "the mind". To say it isn't, is also saying "it's magic".

Now,  Magic DOES exist !  but only until we have what we deem to be a feasible explanation.  There are reasons,  we haven't a clue however what many of them are, yet we still say "there's a purpose" whether this is true or not.  So currently we believe in magic to satiate our need to know and control.  Find meaning where there might not be any, and create a God, deny mortality, and commit philosophical suicide in order to remain comfortable.

I'm the most hated type of philosopher. Existentialist.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

B loody hell Kappy when I said I cant do without your posts...
I too believe that most people (women especially) attempt to change the will of others on a daily basis. My son fell in love with his girlfriend while I was away in UK last year. He had glorious thick wavy long hair when he met her and when I returned he had cut it to please her. The grungy clothes were replaced with  metrosexual style. And he was wearing a bruddy stinky spicy aftershave and applying aqueous cream to his face. Now while I was never too keen on his taste in clothes before I applauded the fact that he was an individual who despite peer pressure in a small country town, remained true to himself.
A few months ago my son came home and related what he thought was cool and I thought disgusting. His girlfriend and her mother had congratulated themselves on the "nice look" Adam was getting about him.
Why do women do that? why destroy the essence of the person that attracted you in the first place?

As to the rest, I want to address your responses but If we are to have a theological debate it will have to wait untill I feel less intellectually inept. I have just got home from a gig and although it was a easy one, just having got over the flu meant that it wasnt my best work and I am feeling a tad cotton-woolish. Perhaps it may be best to discuss this in a private forum so as not to upset others. Politics and religion in an open forum is a recipe for disaster

As to OK what now, Blessed be my dear I have no wish to sway anyone from their beliefs, I only know what is right for me and am comfortable with the decisions I make.

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Hold on,  let me get myu glasses,  I can't read any of this anymore  :(

brb

ADDED IN;  OK, there you are !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Yep,  I forget how different our clocks are.  It's 7 AM here, and I just wolfed down my pepperoni pizza.  (Need a balanced breakfast..most important meal of the day)..

Yeah,  I think I'll need coffee,  Thinking hurts this time of day anyway  

The fact that you're comfortable with your decisions is what's so important !

While I'm not at all comfortable not believing in much of anything, I feel it's an important place for me to be now.  I'd rather not compromise my intellectual beliefs, and what seems realistic to me with some absurd fantasy, but that's just MY OWN decision.  Not the best one, but it's what I want for me.. In my opinion Grimm's fairytales are nice, but they aren't real.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I cant justify lighting the fire when I should be in bed so if I am gonna stay up and chat I best make myself a coffee also its chilly

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Nah,  Get some sleep,   After that great  pizza breakfast and chocolate bar, I'm going to sleep like a baby some more.  If I'm lucky I'll wake up with acne !!  I suffered as a teenager.  I never had acne and all my friends did !  I'm still keeping my fingers crossed.  I never got zits  :(

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

It always takes me a couple of hours to wind down after a gig and chatting while thinking bout tonite and dissecting my performance helps me to chill. I would only toss n turn if I went to bed now. I have pulled on a pair of long johns under my nightshirt and a couple of pairs of thermal socks, My dressing gown and a jacket. I am starting to warm up

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

See,  I turn up the heat and pay outrageous electric bills.  Of course first that requires cold weather, and turning off the A/C.  A source of even higher electric bills. Don't you have a space heater, quartz heater, or just some small portable unit that generates heat ?  Do you live in a high elevation ?  What season is it down where you are ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... e&ei=UTF-8


I'm looking at this golfcourse.  I can't imagine anything more horrifying than a golf course with sheer dropoffs.  I'd probably get killed leaning over with a long branch trying to retrieve my ball from the water...(in my case the clubs too)

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Actually the temps down there are pretty much the same as here,  Auckland about 60 and rainy.  Same exact condition here.  Looks like your around 40-60 degree's,  same as northeast US now.  Funny thing is,  60 and muggy here I have to have the air conditioning on.  That's too hot for me..  I'm actually a Penguin

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

We are coming into spring. I picked bunches of daphne and daffodils today and the house smells divine. I live in the south island which is cooler than Auckland which is sub tropical

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

steven how do u think we as humans and you as...well whatever u r came to be?
and what would the odds be of that happening?

no matter what any of us believe everything we see, touch and feel is REAL...for the most part anyway....

we have the sky the water, trees.....yet not 1 human can create anything out of nothing...so who did? what did?

how did any and all of this come to be?

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Stem cells can be implanted anywhere and become anything...they evolve  "God" has nothing to do with that because the do-gooders say its morally wrong to do it, that kinda throws a spanner in the works.

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

and where did stem cells come from? and who r what made those?

sweetie we could go round in circles for hours to no avail. I cant believe in your beliefs because they are based on so many lies.
eg 25th Dec being the birth of Christ
Easter being the date of the cruicifixion and yet Easter is never on the same date. Why is that? because it was plonked smack upon a pagan festival. That celebration was based on the moon hence the difference of date.
I could tick off a few more but what is the use?

Now you can respond and have the last word, I really dont care

Blessed be

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

I don't have an answer. So I say "I have no idea".




If you believe we are here for a purpose, and there is a reason we are here talking now, that it was preplanned, I can't identify,  I don't believe that is possible, It's little more than random events that culminated in our existence. It could've been us, or anyone for that matter.  I believe we are random.  No planned purpose, Just perhaps to keep our species going.. Same with ants, cats, aardvarks, etc.  There's no smart supreme aware being.. Just a chain of events.  Why ?  I don't know. No planner... No almighty brains behind this.  Whether there was at one time ?, I doubt it, but I have no idea, I just don't know,  God is less logical to me than any concept regarding our creation.  It gives NO answers... To some of us to say god did it, is tantamount to saying "A myth did it".  How could something so intangible and also judgmental (God always seems to have a humanoid ego, and emotion, "God is Loving" ???, "God decides" ???) have "always been", and created us ?  To me this is evidence that God is man-created out've a psychological necessity for answers where there are otherwise no answers.









We don't know.  Yet many will say "I don't know therefore God did it". That's considered "commiting philosophical suicide". The reason being,   God who ?

What makes this concept of "God did it" any more reasonable ?  What answers does that furnish ? A supreme paternal figure ?  "The God that always existed?".  How is that logical ?  What is logically sound about a "Supreme being did it" ?   How did this unknown unimaginable being "do all this" ?  Why is this so much easier than saying
"I DO NOT KNOW" ?

To some of us God is an imaginary man-created concept. Yet even those that believe in God can not give a more concise answer than this-

"God did it, because he's God".

It gives NO answers.



While we understand the psychological importance of a man-created concept such as God, We also see this theological absurdity-

"God did it, because he's God".  <---what answers does this give us ? It serves one
                                                    purpose, it allows us to throw up our arms
                                                    and say, I haven't a clue, but now I can stop
                                                    questioning things.  I'll just accept A supreme
                                                    "father" did it ALL, and not question him.
                                                     Because he also has an ego, and I'm not to
                                                     question

                                                     (this is TOTAL absurdity)-Philosophical suicide

                                                      but also psychologically important for some !
                                                      I recognise this. That doesn't however make
                                                      it sound and reasonable.

Call it God, call it "Something somehow".  I say "I don't know". It's the most logical answer we currently have.

Sometimes "I don't know" is the only answer we really have that's sound !  Scary or not.

We live in a world where there supposedly can only be "one god", Yet it's funny how there are millions of concepts of this "one god", everybody see's god "their own way", many of us don't see this god at all.  There is nothing rational about god belief. However it is psychologically important.  That doesn't preclude myth. We want alot of things in life, answers are very high on the that list. If we don't have them, we grasp at straws in order to create something.. The last straw is "I don't know, it must be something outside of my recognition"-(GOD).  I'd rather be more realistic, and say "I don't know, show me something logical, something that makes sense",  God does not.

In our nation if I am on my knees praying to God, that's fine. Yet if I'm walking down the street with my arm around Harvey (a six foot invisible rabbit) I'm deluded. Why is that ?   Harvey is no less logical than God !

My strong feeling is man created God to quell fear of unknowns, and separation anxiety. We are social animals that believe and fear we are going to die.  God is a way around this.


but.... this doesn't mean I shouldn't try to be a good person !  I have that responsibility. God or no God !

I want you to explain to me what's logical about God ?

Until you can,  I'll settle for "I don't have the answers, nor do you"

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

In our nation if I am on my knees praying to God, that's fine. Yet if I'm walking down the street with my arm around Harvey (a six foot invisible rabbit) I'm deluded. Why is that ?   Harvey is no less logical than God !

My strong feeling is man created God to quell fear of unknowns, and separation anxiety. We are social animals that believe and fear we are going to die.  God is a way around this.


but.... this doesn't mean I shouldn't try to be a good person !  I have that responsibility. God or no God !

I want you to explain to me what's logical about God ?

Until you can,  I'll settle for "I don't have the answers, nor do you"

Dammit you're good

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

BUT...


This is just MY belief now.  If someone I loved was dying, or if I was dying, I'm also a conditioned westerner. I'm scared of dying too, I'm no different in this respect. Out've desparation I might revert back to the childhood phobic beliefs.  My mom states she never would, and I believe her.  She's honestly comfortable being an Athiest. Claims when on her deathbed she'll have no need for God either, as in life she doesn't. She can live without the security of having this belief as a crutch.  I'm not that strong yet.  I consider myself Agnostic leaning towards atheism,  I want to believe in God,  but I also want to believe in Alot of the nursery rhymes I was read as a child, it was nice being young thinking my parents were "god".  I just don't know, Don't know where I was, or where I'm going after I croak.  I don't know anybody who does know..  They just think they do.  IMHO.
I'll probably end up back here  LOL.  If I don't get bannished,  I'll have posting to do.

What kind of supreme being loves and punishes ?   Sounds like my grandfather.  


Whatever somebody believes in is fine.  If it helps get them thru, and helps them remain decent.  Nothing wrong with it IMHO,  It's just none of my business.

I don't see how it's not so very obvious that only creatures that live such polarized existences such as man can create these all or none concepts..

Heaven/Hell
God/Satan

Everything is All or none when man get's his hands on it  LOL

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

It's 100 degrees out here.....I'll be glad for winter, I miss the fire....

Keith,  and we finally got a reprieve from the heat, Only hit 60 today, rainy but still I'll take that over the oppressive Heat and humidity !!   It was a hot summer up here,  We had more days over 90 than recent past years.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".