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The thread on triamps got me googling and surfing (google jbl array photos) and this thread taught me a little more about subs. I'll just paste some of the comments. The last comment was about a certain setup which comes with a pic..




 Click here for pic

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WOW   I can't see any horns in that picture.     How many watts/amps, do you think they are using?

Your info brings up one more point.    If you set up on a stage with your subs, you lose the floor effect mentioned.   Bass frequencies travel best along the floor.   Another reason I don't use a stage.  

If you put the above mentioned Carvins on a stage to get the horns up, you'll lose the bass response missing from the floor.

The actual array they were talking about is this one

The white papers should have the total watts...

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Actually in that pic, those are probably true 3 way (highs/mids/lows - mostly whats flown if a sub is flown above, it would most likely be the be the quad 15" at the bottom of each, but it doesn't look like any from what I can see.  You can see the actual sub stacks (at least 13 dual 18") off to the right of the stage.  As far as wattage I would estimate by looking at the amount of speakers probably around 25-30,000 watts just for the main line, depending on the configurations it could be as high as 50K.  There are at least 12 (what looks to be Crown Macro Tech 5002) amps I can see behind the side sub line & probably at least 10-12 more that can't be seen.

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That's not always so.  Which is why they design speakers to be flown - even subs.

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There are simply/only two reasons to fly subs:

A- Attempt to reach folks in rear of large venue with sub freqs

B- No place else to locate them, or you don't want the place looking like a rock concert.

When either A,B or both force you to fly subs, then expect to need several more subs, lots more amp power available, and then have less-than-perfect sub freq coverage per audience member no matter where they are sitting/standing.

Not many audio equipment manufacturers produce subs designed to be flown because:

C- Only top-draw acts need them and only then when playing large venues
D- Liability from falling objects
E- High power subs tend to self destruct anything they are placed inside(see item D above)

You will see more subs flown in large churches than anywhere else due to A and B.

There might be additional reasons but I haven't mastered the full alphabet.

Karyoker,

That QSC array you linked to is a good example of top $$ concert level stuff....

Notice that the sub is ported...It is highly directional compared to stage floor subs, and must be 'aimed' properly....They kinda work like a 'sonic wave cannon' and you must incorporate highly calibrated/controlled reverse delays with them...you see them often in large stadiums as permanant installs...They do a good job of reaching folks in distant seats, but require lots of power and you need quite a few of them for 360 coverage.....So many times they will only be supplied and directed at the big money seating areas.

Im trying to figure out why sometimes you would put it behind the array unless you wanted more floor.....Did you check out the specs each vertex has almost 2 k of power.

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Just depends, i've been part of the set-up crew for some large scale events/concerts in the past & they flew the subs.  A couple applications were for theatrical (plays) where the orchestra pit was mic'd.   You only see flyable subs from the more expensive sides of JBL, TurboSound, McCauley, EAW, Grund Audio, and a small handful of others - main reason is these companies specialize in touring systems with proven track records.  They are also expensive to built - especially the reinforcement needed internally for the fly points.

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The main reason I said it was crap.... Most of the people on this site will assume that if they buy a 3-way speaker such as the afore mentioned, it will make their system sound great.   In reality if you don't know about PA systems and the proper way speakers should be set up, you will be just buying some expensive trouble.   You'll end up buying the right thing, later.    Nobody is going to be flying them at a bar.     If they put them on the floor they aren't doing any good, either.     There are way more non professionals on here, so much of our information should be geared in that direction.    This would not be a good speaker choice for someone just starting out.   And it wouldn't work in most bars setups.   JMO    :D

You are correct, it is your opinion - but again, to say something is junk or crap just because it won't work for your needs is crap in itself - we heard this type of thing with a certain computer program as well.  
I used a set of Peavey SP4 (dual 15's quasi 3 way) sitting on tables in a couple of corners that were in a bar that held maybe 75, great sound, no lack of bass & the highs were over the heads.  I had the speakers bi-amped.  Again just because they may not work for you don't mean that they won't work for others.  But I will agree that they would need to be up higher than the floor (as sitting on a table - those particular Carvins - well and most dual 15" setups are too heavy to put on stands) to work their full benefit & reach the entire audience.  Sitting on the floor - unless it's a raised stage, won't work well.  But then in certain situations they may work just fine.  I've worked clubs where they wanted the sound concentrated on the dance floor only & not so much in the rest of the bar, I stuck the SP4's on the floor & all was good.

I don't agree with your 3 way comment as well.  Most people won't assume that, in my opinion, if they buy those types of speakers they will get great sound - provided they are set-up correctly & have proper power behind them.  SOME of the people may assume that, but then again, SOME of the people use those little BMB 10" "Karaoke" speakers & an underpowered "karaoke" mixer amp & think they are the best sounding thing since cd's came out & you couldn't tell them anything otherwise.  It's all still in the ear of what one hears.

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Floor bass is absorbed by thick carpet and various other things including a heavy crowd which is why you have to turn the bass up if it gets crowded. This thread was started to present another small facet to dispersing bass. Now you can call it flying or just putting speakers on stands. It is very basic that you put the horns 2 feet above the crowd. Since I run an Aphex with big bottom if I am in a big hall I am going to raise the speakers even  higher to get more bass to the rear. The best bet would be as I stated in a previous post is on the ceiling angled down.....This helps with feedback in small bar with close quarters too. If the ceiling is high enough they can actually be placed behind the singers. This info is presented in a non-professional manner but it is free. I can present a formal engineering analysis however that will not be free gratis.

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Karyoker, don't you dare ever hang any speakers behind and above the singers ....That's feedback city ....You see that most often in churches, but even then the speakers are forward of the stage.

Those SP4's and similar from JBL or whoever are very good speakers even when ran full range...They demand generous amping, tho.

Please no one misunderstand when I say they are not for KJ/DJ's....I say that only because of their awkward configuration that limits you in proper placement, and the fact so many KJ's also do a lot of DJ stuff....DJ'ing demands much more bass than most KJ programing. The dual 15"s offer extended bass, but never enuff when the gals really wanna dance.

The KJ/DJ who desires a flexible and easily expandable system should avoid them for those reasons.

Most KJ/DJ folks who end up with dual 15" tops can blame the music store salespeople.....Few of them actually have any experience in sound reinforcement...And even fewer will advise you to down size if you stroll in and start slobbering on the dual cabs.

A decent pair of single 15" tops mated to a just one dual 15" sub will knock the grills off any pair of SP4's, Peavey or JBL's....Any you will discover the cost for either setup is almost equal...Yep, even tho both systems contain 2 horns and four 15" woofers, the single 15 + subs will out perform and be much easier to transport, rig and place than the other.

Lonman, I love ya no joke, but I can't bring myself to not call 'youknowwhat' software crap....yet.

 Keith they are not directly behind the singers. Why would you want speakers that close.? They are at the sides  dont forget dispersion angles. Both sideways and down angle. Keith if you dont know by now that in the tech forum I am not guessing but speaking from experience then the only thing we can do is go get a few beers and disciuss rhe situation  LOL

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You know, reading this thread..... and a few others in the techie forums. (yes, I hang out here when I'm bored.... bite me)...... I realize I REALLY have my music room set up ALL WRONG. Must be why when I get to wailing stuff on the walls start vibrating and the feedback nearly shatters the windows?

Hmmmm....... I'm copying and pasting all these threads me thinks. Maybe someday I'll get it all done right. I'm too tech-stoopid.

Anyways, just thinking out loud here. Ignore me, carry on.  :D

(just letting you know... some of this is good advice for us new-to-equipment people too, IF you speak slowly enough  LOL )


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My brother-in-law always told people if you ever want your tv fixed get a 12 pack and invite Ollie over 1 hour before the broncos were coming on. I can still make a tv antenna out of bed springs..  Same goes for basement karaoke seups too...

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What is your set-up now?  Where are the speakers in relation to the singer?  Is the mic pointing toward or away from the speaker?  Is the singer by any glass or concrete walls?  Carpeting?  
Describe your room & set-up.

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Well, Ollie, if you all lived a bit closer, I'd do that.

I'd buy a dozen cases of beer, hell, I'd even ask you what BRAND you drink.... and I'd barbecue (yes... I did say I'd cook, , and it takes a hell of an occasion to get me offering to cook a meal for people...) ... and we could have a "set up Charm's music room" party.

Oh gosh, with all of us drunk, we'd end up knocking a wall out to expand it or something. Actually, I need it enclosed, it's open to the kitchen on one side, and the back hall on the other side (so you could bring hammers, nails, sheetrock, and some 2X4's also... maybe Kappy would come along)  :D.

Course, somebody would have to bring new speakers along, mine are crummy. They just wont do.  After dinner, I'd just sit and sing while you all adjusted and moved speaks around. (scared ya off, did I? )  haha...... I better shut up, cause I'm REALLY starting to like the sound of my idea.

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

Lonnie, you'd LAUGH if you saw how ignorant I am. (really, you'd call me an eejit) Cause, well, I AM.

Maybe I should just post pics of my room? Er, wait, it needs cleaned first. I'll try to give you an idea..... speakers are......

One to the right and a bit behind me, pointed right at me. (bad girl, I know) And about chest level to me. Other one is to the left and kinda... in front of me. I had to squeeze them in where they fit. And they are crummy speaks. Loud, but not the best for what I wanna do with them. I talked about them once, long ago, if you recall. (bought off back of a van, haha, remember?)

This room is wierd shaped..... and really, open on either side to the front of the house, and to the back of the house. It needs enclosed somewhat. And the ceiling is slanted, it's an add on. Gimme a few. If you guys are REALLY willing to help, I'll try to give you a good idea of my setup. (will cyber beer and barbecue be good enough? Or an IOU? ) haha

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥