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Lonman
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Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:01 pm |
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Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 3:57 pm Posts: 22978 Songs: 35 Images: 3 Location: Tacoma, WA Been Liked: 2126 times
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TOMMIE TUNES @ Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:26 pm wrote: LONMAN: If Given A Choice Between These 2 Speakers Which Would You Choose For Karaoke YAMAHA-SII5 CLUB SERIES (Which Are Two-Way Speakers) Or CARVIN-1584 Which Are (3-way Speakers). The More I Read It Seems To Me That 3-ways Are Better For Vocals, Is This True In Your Opinion?
You really aren't going to be able to tell THAT much between a 2 way vs 3 way enclosure, you may hear a slight improvement but nothing great.
I haven't heard too many horror stories with Carvin (alot choose not to buy because they don't sell in stores & they can't hear, manu sold only) - heard way more horror stories with other brands more often such as Behringer (but that's another story), I LOVE Carvin amps, I know many people with Carvin systems some from mixer to speakers & everything in between & they sound really nice. Our sound guy from my band used a nearly entire Carvin PA - mixer, amps, speakers, monitors, crossover & eq's & it rocked the house with some really good clarity & fullness. But with any speaker, whatever you choose, make sure you have the proper power pushing it. The Yamahas need an amp capable of pushing 500 watts per channel into 8 ohms, the 1584 are right around the same rating if not a bit more.
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Lonman
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Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:02 pm |
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Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 3:57 pm Posts: 22978 Songs: 35 Images: 3 Location: Tacoma, WA Been Liked: 2126 times
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edit duplicate
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jamkaraoke
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Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:31 pm |
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Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2002 10:54 am Posts: 3485 Location: New Jersey , USA Been Liked: 0 time
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The fact that you are using the Yamaha SV115 as your mains , would you be better off trading in your 15" Samson SUB for a matching Yamaha 18" SUB - These would be a perfect match and internally crossed over perfectly and you might be better off BI-AMPING that set up then fooling around with triamping and 3 speakers on each side? Just an idea from someone who really nows very little about all that frequency and crossover stuff :handshake:
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Lonman
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Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:43 pm |
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Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 3:57 pm Posts: 22978 Songs: 35 Images: 3 Location: Tacoma, WA Been Liked: 2126 times
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jamkaraoke @ Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:31 pm wrote: The fact that you are using the Yamaha SV115 as your mains , would you be better off trading in your 15" Samson SUB for a matching Yamaha 18" SUB - These would be a perfect match and internally crossed over perfectly and you might be better off BI-AMPING that set up then fooling around with triamping and 3 speakers on each side? Just an idea from someone who really nows very little about all that frequency and crossover stuff :handshake:
True the Yamaha 18" would be a better match for the S115, however the sub does not have a built in crossover to pass to the mains. An external crossover & extra amp for the sub would still be needed. His Samson sub (assuming it's the Powered EX500) has a 500 watt amp & has a built in high pass crossover that is adjustable from 30hz - 200hz.
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Keith02
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Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:54 pm |
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Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:58 pm Posts: 2327 Been Liked: 0 time
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Sounds like your existing tops are not bi-ampable without internal wiring mods....That's too bad cause it would make it really easy for you to satisfy your urge to experiment.
Often, 2way 15" tops offer both full range and bi-amp jacks...even el-cheapo brands have that many times, but the fact yours don't doesn't mean they are less than el-cheapo in quality.
If they did, then it would be quick to determine by simply bi-amping them and playing with the crossover freqs to see if they gave good sound.
Don't toy with the idea of adding "just horns" to your existing 2way tops...Nope, not a good direction. As you are already thinking of replacing the builtin horns with separate horns, then just give it up and consider a complete replacement, cause if in your mind the horns ain't up to snuff, then the 15"s won't be either once split.
Decent quality tops like the Eon's can run off their built in crossovers all day and beat the socks off lots of bi-amped stuff......It's all in the design of the crossover and how it is mated to the drivers....it really is hard for any guy to beat the sound of a properly engineered and amped top cab with his bi-amped attemps.
There is a whole more to it than simply checking the specs and tweeking your external crossover and adding another amp....That "whole lot more" is hidden in a well engineered builtin crossover....That sucker will contain very driver-specific and cab specific slopes and delays that you could only match by trial and error and may not have available in just any external crossover...It will also contain CD horn EQ which not every external crossover offers, and if it does, not every sound guy will master the use of it.
So please don't oversimplify this into a very disappointing experiment where you talk yourself into maybe saving a few bucks and end up spending more than a simple upgrade would cost.
Working kj/dj's eventually learn to love a set of quality tops with well engineered builtin crossovers....They are plug n play, less complicated, brainless and in the end cheaper.
Friend, if you start with a pair of quality tops run full range, and then add a pair of carefully selected subs and cross and amp them properly, you will forget all about tri-amping....The most improvement to be had cheapest and simplest is in a properly bi-amped system running full range tops with subs....Get there first and then see if you can remember you ever wanted tri-amping
But if you decide you wanna bi-amp some tops anyway, then bring it on cause you will gets lots of great advice here!
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Lonman
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Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:02 pm |
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Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 3:57 pm Posts: 22978 Songs: 35 Images: 3 Location: Tacoma, WA Been Liked: 2126 times
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Well the S115 aren't really cheap quality, they just aren't bi-amp capable. Neither are the JBL JRX or MR series either. There are lots of brands today that aren't going that route - yes the more expensive models are generally bi-amp ready, but just because they didn't make them bi-amp capable, doesn't mean they are lesser in quality - there are some models that wouldn't make a difference either way - some brands too, but the Yamaha aren't one of them. It's real easy to make them bi-amp ready & by pass the internal crossover, just a matter of some simple wire mods internally.
But I agree with the proper sub with proper rated amps running the system with an external crossover, you probably won't need to tri-amp, bi-amp the subs & the mains & you'll more than likely be satisfied with the end sound.
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Keith02
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Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:03 pm |
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Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:58 pm Posts: 2327 Been Liked: 0 time
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Lonman @ Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:02 pm wrote: Well the S115 aren't really cheap quality, they just aren't bi-amp capable.
Yep, that's what i meant when i said:
"Often, 2way 15" tops offer both full range and bi-amp jacks...even el-cheapo brands have that many times, but the fact yours don't doesn't mean they are less than el-cheapo in quality. "
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Keith02
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Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:51 pm |
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Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:58 pm Posts: 2327 Been Liked: 0 time
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P.S.
I suggest all kj/dj's stay away from mains that contain dual 15''s and a horn.
They offer extra bass, but they don't come close to properly set up single 15's and subs.
They are huge, heavy, impossible to place on stands, and very difficult to get right when you finally decide to add subs.
Start with high quality 2way mains that contain one 15" woofer and a horn and offer bi-amp jacks and full range jacks....Then it is very easy to add the correct subs and bi or tri amp from there.
The most benifit you will get from a properly tri-amped system is that your horns will reach out farther and your mids will seem clearer, but these benifts are not needed until you are really maxing them out in a larger venue....most of us will never need to load our 2way 15''s to that point when playing indoors in typical clubs.
When in a very large venue or outside, you will run out of bass long before you get short on tops.....It is not unusual to see an outside dance party needing 4 or even six subs with just one decent pair of tops running full range...Run like that, the dancers tend to cluster closer to the stage where they can duck the horns blare and suck up the bass....Those farther to the rear get full benifit of both...those seeking shelter from the SPL's and wanting to chat don't have to travel too far from the crowd.
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Guest
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Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:54 pm |
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The problem I see with 1- 3way speaker per side is, you have to have the horn over everyones head. If the speaker is on the ground because it's too heavy to put on a stand, what good is it.
The only way I would tri-amp is with 3 seperate speakers. Bass on the ground, mid on top of that and depending on how high the mids are, you might need to put the horn on a stand, to get it higher than the heads of the crowd.
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Guest
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Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:57 pm |
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I think my best sounding system was twin 15" subs with 12" and horns for the tops.
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Keith02
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Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:11 pm |
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Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:58 pm Posts: 2327 Been Liked: 0 time
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Bigdog @ Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:54 pm wrote: The problem I see with 1- 3way speaker per side is, you have to have the horn over everyones head. If the speaker is on the ground because it's too heavy to put on a stand, what good is it.
The only way I would tri-amp is with 3 seperate speakers. Bass on the ground, mid on top of that and depending on how high the mids are, you might need to put the horn on a stand, to get it higher than the heads of the crowd. Believe it or not, in the old days that is how it was done....you hardly ever saw subs, but the tops were split and the horns were then able to be aimed and set back from the mids....All of that was necessary due to the fact that older horns didn't incorporate CD horn tech and there were no decent builtin crossovers back then.
Modern high quality builtin crossovers incorp proper delay so it is not necessary to set the horn back several inches from the plane of the woofer....Cd horns are now mostly standard and modern crosovers are programed to apply the correct attenuation required whe using CD horns...(CD means constant directivity)
Modern Cd horns are designed to offer a broader coverage than the old types....Back in the day, you might need two or more horns to cover the same area a modern CD horn can saturtate today....Old stlye horns were almost pencil thin in dispersion angle, so you needed several for each woofer....Thus they were in separate boxes.
It's still a good idea to get your woofers up at least shoulder high...The higher the freq, the higher the driver.....
You will sometimes see guys with the big three way cabs set them on top of subs in an attempt to make them sound better because they discovered they can't place them on stands....I laff when i see that, cause it indicates they stepped off on the wrong foot when they bought them....Usually they think they will save money and not need subs, then they learn the horns need to be up high and they really need subs, so they buy subs and stack it all.
They end up having big problems with bass cancelation and poor tops performance and also lose bass because they can't place their subs together since they are using them as speaker stands for their over sized tops.
Those 3way tops are great for a small band in a small cub that plays on a 24" high stage to a seated audience....Especially if they are tooting mic'd horns and mic'd stringed acustics with a few vocal mics included....That is all they are good for....But as soon as they need to mic the drums and amp the bass, they get in the way instantly.
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Guest
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Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:01 pm |
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Bass frequencies travel best along the floor. You don't want the speaker that's acting like a bass in the air. And you can't have a horn low.
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lyquiddye
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:56 am |
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Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:26 pm Posts: 1252 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Been Liked: 3 times
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Here ia a example of a system that can be properly tri-amped.
The VRX932LA are bi-ampable a seperate amp can be used for the HF Driver and the 12". A seperate amp would Be used for the SRX718S Subs creating a Tri-Amp System.
The cost would be a bit out of hand considering the Line Arrays are $1700 each and the Subs are $830. Not to metion the high end amps you would end up using on speakers that are 800 watts.
I am sure there are more cost effective ways to a have a tri-amped system. If you really want sonething Tri- Amped I suggest looking into picing up a pair of Mackie SA1530Z they are powered tri-Amped speakers.
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Lonman
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:07 am |
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Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 3:57 pm Posts: 22978 Songs: 35 Images: 3 Location: Tacoma, WA Been Liked: 2126 times
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Going a step further a true 3 way enclosure can be tri-amped within itself & when you add a sub & sub amp, it's now a quad-amped system
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Keith02
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:19 pm |
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Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:58 pm Posts: 2327 Been Liked: 0 time
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Lonman @ Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:07 pm wrote: Going a step further a true 3 way enclosure can be tri-amped within itself & when you add a sub & sub amp, it's now a quad-amped system I'll admit I haven't examined any dual 15" cabs in years....Are you saying some of them now come with tri-amp jacks?...or that you can do some internal mods to get there?
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karyoker
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:40 pm |
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Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:43 pm Posts: 6784 Location: Fort Collins Colorado USA Been Liked: 5 times
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Why couldnt you take something like this and actually triamp it? Note where it says
The lower woofer is rolled off at a lower frequency than is the upper woofer. This reduces mid-range phase anomalies while retaining the strong low frequency output that is the primary appeal of a dual woofer system.
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Keith02
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:51 pm |
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Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:58 pm Posts: 2327 Been Liked: 0 time
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karyoker @ Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:40 pm wrote: Why couldnt you take something like this and actually triamp it? Note where it says The lower woofer is rolled off at a lower frequency than is the upper woofer. This reduces mid-range phase anomalies while retaining the strong low frequency output that is the primary appeal of a dual woofer system. I ain't looked at the link yet, but that sounds just like most dual 15"s I am familar with...let me see!
Edited after the peek at your link:
Yep, that is an example of the dual 15"s I mentioned earlier. Stay away from them if you are the typical KJ/DJ!
Those cabs are great at what they are intended for, but not well suited for most of us guys for all the very reasons already mentioned....They contain some very well engineered crossovers and the drivers are well matched to the cab, but you will paint yourself into a very tite corner if you buy them for your "someday I'll improve my system" setup.
If you are thinking, "I can go in there and wire by-pass those beautiful builtin crossers, add some extra jacks and then tri-amp them, then you need to back up and consider that:
-You still can't stand mount them
-You can't place your 'subs' together
-Once tri-amped, the lower woofer that is now the full sub will interfere with the upper woofer that's located in the same cab.
Save yourself money and pain...buy the cheaper single 15 version and add on as you please painlessly.
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lyquiddye
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:27 pm |
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Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:26 pm Posts: 1252 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Been Liked: 3 times
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karyoker @ Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:40 pm wrote: Why couldnt you take something like this and actually triamp it? Note where it says The lower woofer is rolled off at a lower frequency than is the upper woofer. This reduces mid-range phase anomalies while retaining the strong low frequency output that is the primary appeal of a dual woofer system.
And the #1 reason why you would not tri-amp this speaker?
You would have to take it apart and run the wires yourself, thus voiding the manufactures warrenty.
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karyoker
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:03 pm |
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Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:43 pm Posts: 6784 Location: Fort Collins Colorado USA Been Liked: 5 times
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I repair them......
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Guest
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Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:09 pm |
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I would never use it because the horn is to low. The horn would only be about 4 feet off the ground. Not nearly high enough to be over top of a crowd 6 feet tall. The twin 15" sounds good by itself, but you'll need to get sepearte horns to put on poles.
My ideal system would be an 18" sub, 15" sub , 15" mid, 12" mid and horn, per side.
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