Karaoke Forums

One of the advantages of a bi-amped system is each amp can filter out frequencies that dont pertain. This leads to a more sophisticated input filter system. Powered bi-amp speakers are fairly rugged as they are engineered for worst case conditions from input to speaker and the danger of underpowering etc is minimal. . However everything has its limits.  Mic compression to me is a must.  A power surge during a storm can do anything.

Current limiters are prevalent in commercial applications Pioneer has some amps in their jukeboxes where some cd's with boosted bass such as Big & Rich will totally cutoff the amp during heavy bass. This is neccessary because the big bass in the bottom has one hell of a throw..But this wouldnt protect from spikes in higher freqs....

thanks for the explaination karyoker... many thanks

guys... thank you all

In 14 years I have had 3 different systems set up in at least 50-100 different bars, if not more.    Each one was unique as far as the set up and speaker placement.   The systems were EQed to sound exactly the same.    If they were played side-by-side, you would not be able to tell which was playing.   I couldn't.     In every single one of those bars the EQ was [highlight=crimson]never[/highlight] changed.   They always sounded very good.    You can believe me or not.    Now I heard what you are saying, but you didn't hear how they sounded.   Nobody ever complained about the sound.   In fact everyone compliments the sound.    Your book learning may be good in the practical sense, but my experience tells me a different story.

Every once in a while (once or twice in six months or more) someone will say that one songs sounds too tinny or bassy.   It's only 2 and 1/2 minutes longer.   You'll get over it.   It's so rare that it isn't worth the effort to do anything about it.   Now I can do a little, but it's only on the mixer, never the EQ itself.   It could have been the way the song was produced that made it sound "over done."

I've listened to hunderds of songs on these systems to get the settings I use today.   Slow songs, oldies, country, rock you name it.    I sang to hundreds of songs doing the same thing.     I listened to karaoke music and regular cds.    Hours and hours.   To date there have been over 350,000 songs played and sang on my systems.

None of my competition comes close to having sound like mine.   If I build anymore systems, they will be EQed the exact same way.    It ain't broke and it sure don't need fixed.   Then again, that's just me.

With audio procs on my system I dont use eq on it The eq on the mixer is used for the stage monitor I sometimes use minor tweaking on the mixer channels either vocal or music. For different venues I tweak with the bass and treble on the Bbe362. As the place fills or as necessary the bass on the 362 will handle it. The only time the treble changes is maybe hooking up to the house sytem or radical speaker placement or wierd acoustics

I use a snake FOH and could ride the audio constantly (one example is gradually increasing the fx on statue of a fool) but since I dont have time the only recource is have a happy medium.

Are you talking about the channel eq or the eq before the amp? Your system eq (the one before the amp) setting do not change once it is set for a particular venue. but the channel eq are there to be used. Every singer have different voice and singing style and therefor different  setting, and the same singer may need to be eq'ed differently when he sing a different genre.

If you are not using the channel eq as above then you are not using the equipment that you have to its fullest. Your singer may sound good, they way you do it now buy they will sound great if you dial each and every one of them. As it is you are not giving them all you have.

_________________
I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

On the system I do not use full blown eq. Just on the stage monitor. The adjustments on the procs are made  for each venue. As a venue fills up it tends to kill the bass which might need turning up. At that point the only thing needing tweaking is small changes in the eq on the various channel strips. I constantly tailor each singer with eq and set levels at the start then back to other things (flirting etc)... On hip hop or line dance I might bump the bass on the fx channel strip but very seldom eq the music on the strips..

I suggest those shopping for a 31 band EQ get one that has metering both on the inputs and outputs....The metering is necessary to show you if you have flubbed up the gain structure coming into the EQ, and then thru the EQ....Same suggestion for any outboard component including compressors, mic preamps or whatever.

Once equipped like that, you will not only see what's happening but will be able to understand it and be able to prevent it....Only then will you really start to use your gear fully....It's one thang to have it in the rack for all to see, it's another to make it work well for you.

Typically for any KJ/DJ, a 31 band EQ is not required....It's one of those nice to have items that grant you an extra measure of "fix" to use only when really required...31 band EQ's are great at preventing feedback, but often simply not required when playing back most prerecorded music.

Bigdog,

The fact that you never changed your EQ settings from gig to gig supports my statement that you don't need it.....The other fact however that it sounds lots different to you when in/out means you have poor gain structure thru your system and you attempt to restore it at the EQ by ramping up most sliders.

You are using the amps in the EQ to reamp a too weak input into the EQ, not good....Those itty-bitty amps ain't intended to correct poor gain structure....They only provide a tiny amount of adjustment before they distort....

You are missing tons of dynamic range by distorting the gain structure before it gets to the EQ...that dynamic range was stolen pre EQ most likely in the mixer, and most likely in the mic preamps or when summed before the masters....if your EQ has input and output  meters, then look to see if the input is reading low when compared to the output...If it is, then go backwards in the signal chain and correct it....Go as far back as you need and restore everything downstream of the mics to unity.....Make the input to your EQ hot nuff to read at least unity on the EQ input meter then feel free to put them EQ sliders anywhere you want....then meter the output of the EQ and adjust the output gain back to unity.

Try removing the EQ and then learn how to acheive correct gain structure first at your mics and then thru your board....Once you get there, reinsert the EQ and place all sliders at midpoint, then tweek only the ones that need it only as much as they need it.....Once EQ'd, then cut the EQ in/out and if it sounds louder when in, reduce EQ output gain...If it sounds lower when in, then increase EQ output gain...Eq should not be louder quieter when cut in/out, only clearer.

A 31 band Eq when used on the mains is used to reshape the room and prevent feedback.......Feedback in the mains is best prevented using smart speaker/mic placement, so reshaping the room to acheive the flattest responce from your speakers should be your only use for an EQ on your mains, and it should require resetting in every gig you play.

The only benifit you will ever get out of a 31 Band EQ on your mains (if your speakers and mics are placed properly) is that you will be able to reduce overall SPL's yet your music will be clear and brite and well defined.

An EQ on the mains is used to make your speakers fit the room....you can't reshape the room physically, so you use the EQ to reshape the way the room deals with the speakers. A room reacts to each freq differently and the EQ trys to make the room's responce to all freqs as flat as possible.

A top quality main speaker offers a perfectly flat responce thru all it's intended freqs, but a room will absorb or reflect some freqs to where the speaker is no longer flat, the EQ is designed to fix that.

Proper EQ is done using a Real Time Anylizer and a calibrated mic that is placed in the audience area, then the EQ is tweeked until the mic hears the flattest responce thru all freqs....That calibration is done every time the system is set up in a new venue.....Lacking a RTA and calibrated mic, you use your ears and experience.

P.S.

I left out a really good reason to use a 31 band EQ on your mains....

Your main speakers cannot handle freqs below 50-60 Hz at high power levels....You must filter those low freqs out to protect them. A 31 band EQ is a perfect device for this....Just bottom out all sliders from about 60 Hz and lower.

You will discover that your mains will now sound clearer in the mids and highs they were intended for, and you mains amp will have lots more headroom before clipping.

If you want fat bass, then get subwoofers.

To help you understand the priority of different external rack gear, you first need to determine how 'in reach' it needs to be from your position when playing kj/soundengineer.....Sort and rack your equipment with that in mind.

Your amps need to be close to your speakers....There, they can use short fat cables that will not restrict amp power or effect dampning....add besides, you don't need to tweek the amp during the show anyway...No you don't!..That big knob on the front is not a "volume" knob! Set it and leave it!(more on that later if you need to know)

Your crossover too can be placed in the amp rack...It's a set and forget thing that you never need to adjust during the show.

Same goes for the mains EQ....Place it in the amp rack with the mains amps and crossover....set it for the room and forget it.

So what goes in the KJ rack with the mixer?...simple...Anything that is line level and related to FX, compression, any outboard mic preamps, various players, video switching,...anything you need to be able to tweek during the show goes in the mixer rack.

What about limiters?....you don't need limiters.....you already have limiters built in to your power amps....Yes you do.....don't believe me?....The limiters are the great big knobs on the front of your power amps....See, I already told you they are not 'volume' knobs, trust me, they are limiters.

Your masters on your board are your 'volume' knobs....up is loud, down is quiter...If you have properly structured gain into and thru your mixer, then unity on the masters is your max volume stop point....Feel free to reduce them from there during the show as required/when required.

But what about those great big knobs on the amps?...can't I play with them?...Yeah, but just once....you set them to control the input gain to the amp, then you leave them alone forever....I know they look inviting, but trust me, you really only need to set them once.....should you turn them all the way up?...Yeah, maybe.....Lets save that question for when somebody asks it.

Very informative Keith, however it don't apply to BD, remember his ways are THE way.  As pointed out in other posts, he don't even run a crossover between his subs & mains so they all get the same signal.

_________________
[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

I won't agree with that until Bigdog slams me personally.

The bigdog wasn't born a KJ. He got here just like you n me.....He, like you n me also admits he really don't know it all....Yet.

I figure if i offer what i know to him in a respectful way, he will at least consider it.

If I slap him with it, he will slap me back.....That's why i like the guy....He is truely the Bigdog.

I don't use the EQ to boost the volume.  I said it sounds fuller.   Maybe the term is richer.    Maybe more colorful.   I know it makes a big, very noticeable difference.    Without it, to me sounds pretty flat.     I will try backing off the 60 and down, to see if it makes a difference.

The bi-amp, crossover issue, I'm still debating.   Would it be noticaeable to the average person?

BIG TIME noticeable.  It would sound much cleaner.  Subs are designed to reproduce certain frequencies, the way yours are set up now, they are trying to reproduce everything which means they are trying to push higher frequencies they aren't designed to push - making the sound muddy - which may be why you need to boost instead of cut on your eq.  You really shouldn't have to boost anything at the eq, an eq is designed to alter certain frequencies that may sound harsh, or muddy by lowering those frequencies to smooth out the response - or it is used to cut back certain feedback frequencies.  
I've been running sound for over 20 years & have NEVER been able to set an eq & leave it the same for any room - each room has different acoustics.  
As for the tops, they are also trying to push all frequencies as well, including trying to reproduce the sub frequencies - which starts giving you a phase cancellation & you actually start losing frequencies & sound quality.  When a system is properly crossed over, your sub will push the frequencies it was designed to push - only.  Everything else will be sent to the top speakers.  It also helps the amps, 1 amp trying to reproduce EVERYTHING is very hard on it.  1 amp dedicated for the subs & 1 amp dedicated to the mains will actually ease some of the stress that it is getting now.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

You can leave all bass freq sliders up(60 and under) if you are not playing loudly and if your mains amp has lots of headroom....you will lose a little clarity in the mids, but retain the lowest bass that way....Once you need more volume(SPLs) for a larger room or if you tend to play modern hot dance music, then fersure you want to add subs and at least bi-amp the subs from the mains.

Good quality and properly amped mains don't need to be bi-amped once you get the bass removed from them.....OOOPS, let me explain bi-amping mains.

When discussing bi or tri amping, there are several ways to do it....you can have normal 2way tops and bi-amp just them....That's where you use an external crossover to separately amp the horns from the woofers....That takes a crossover and two amps or one channel from each side of the same amp....So that is "bi-amped" without subs.

Or lets say you add subwoofers....and you then supply an amp for the subs and a separate amp for the tops...That is also called bi-amped....Except in this instance one amp is supplying both drivers in the tops and they are using their built in crossovers....That's bi-amped with subs.

If you go all the way, you are tri-amped...that's where you split the tops like in the first example, and then split the bass from the tops.....Tri-amping takes a 3 way external crossover and three amps/amp channels.

Does the average KJ need to tri-amp?....Not at all.

Does the average KJ need to bi-amp with subs?.....Yeah, or he at least should be planning to as funds permit.

It is possible to bi-amp with subs and not use an external crossover....To do that you buy subs with what are called low-pass filters inside.....most bargain subs come with low-pass filters already installed.....You just send them a full range signal and they filter out any freqs above maybe 150-200 Hz......You still need a subwoofer amp, but at least not an external crossover.

Crossovers, they are another beast in themself......You already have crossovers built into your tops....They are called passive filters....Passive means that they are subjected to hipower signals that have been amplified at the power amp....for them to do their job they must waste quite a bit of amp power before the speaker sees it.....Passive filters are large and made with heavy duty components designed to survive hipower and lots of heat....the heat comes from wasted amp power....but they work very well providing you supply enuff amp and use short heavy speaker cables.

It's ok for the average KJ to rely on the passive crossovers built into his tops as long as he doesn't underpower them...That's right, never underpower them....Most of us fear overpowering, but too little amp will fry your passive crossovers way before too much amp harms the actual speakers....sustained operation with too little amp creates too much heat inside the passive coils and they smoke....Yeah, too little amp does cause too high heat. I know it sounds backwards, but it happens.

External crossovers are called "active" filters....Active filters only deal with line level unamplified signals....They do not waste amp power by converting it to heat....but they have to be set manually and provided rackspace....Active filters will not suffer from too little amp cause they are located in the signal line going to the amp...That don't mean your speakers are safe with too little amp, it just means it won't hurt the crossovers.

To sum it up, you can bi-amp with subs by simply buying the subs and an adequate sub amp.....As long as the subs have builtin low-pass filters all you will need is some more speaker cables and you are set....just run the sub amp in mono and send it the left channel full range signal by "Y"ing off the L input to your tops amp....That will get you bi-amped cheaply and so pleased with how it sounds that you will want to save up for a decent external crossover and make it sound mo-better yet.

P.S....

Now that we have mentioned bi and tri amping, we can soon move on to discuss those big "volume" knobs on the front of your amps....Those things are really cool!...You will never believe what they are really for.

What is the difference between bridged and parallel settings on an amp.   Which one would be best for feeding subs.

Parallel takes one input & pushes them through both outputs so if you were running mono, you could actually use both outputs with only 1 input.  This way you can still hook up the speakers normally & and the amp would be pushing it's normal wattage per channel into the rated load (ohms).  Most of todays amps can handle down to a 2 ohm load - but that's still pretty hard on the amp.  So if you amp pushes say 300 watts per channel into 8 ohms, it will remain the same.
Bridging an amp combines both output power for the amps maximum power output.  Usually a bridged amp will also raise the maximum ohms.  Again, most of todays amps will be able to handle an 4-8 ohm load while in bridged mode.  With the same amp that pushes 300 watts per side at 8 ohms (depending on how they are designed & the manufacturer), in bridged mode, it will feasably push say 600 watts into 8 ohms - some will actually push considerably more than that, that is just an example.  If I remember correctly, you have the Crown XS900.  The diagram will show what it will push into each load normally & bridged.

If I were to bi-amp your system I would maybe get the XS500 & bridge it to both subs, this will put a 4 ohm load on the subs & use the XS900 in regular mode at 8 ohms per channel.  Crossed over anywhere from 75-100 hz.  Your subs do not have an internal crossover.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I was on the Yamaha site looking at amps and speakers.      

Let's start at the mixer output.   If you bi-amp, then you will not be playing in stereo.

So which outs do you use on the mixer.  The two stereo outs or the one mono out?   If it's the one mono out, then you will need a "Y" cord to the two amps.

The two amps would be set to parallel?    With one input to each amp.   Two outs to the speakers.

If I go with two new Yamaha amps, they can cut out the low frequencies.  For tops and bottoms.     Reading the specs, would you need a crossover with these amps?They have special settings on the back of the amps.

Who Says You Can't Teach Old Dogs New Tricks? Great Information From The Minds Of Genuises, Thats The Real Reason I Come Here Daily, I'TS THE SOUND BABY!

_________________
Man Must Know His Limitations -Clint Eastwood

Mixer outs won't change...Leave it patched the same!

You most certainly will remain stereo on your tops if only adding subs in mono

Mono bass is always mo-better than stereo bass....mono bass fills the room better and gives more punch, and besides, bass is usually recorded in mono on your tracks already.....mono bass allows you to spend less on a sub amp cause you can run it bridged into 4 ohms and get double the power out of it.

A simple way to patch into the sub amp is to Y off the Left fullrange input to the top amp....then you can either patch that into a crossover or straigt into a bridged amp if using subs with builtin crossovers.

-Subs with built in crossovers....We have already talked about the difference tween builtin crossovers and external crossovers....Subs with builtin crossover are no match for subs without them....But if you have them you can get bi-amped cheaper, simpler and then upgrade later.

All builtin crossovers rob power that coudl be used for more sound pressures...Bass needs lots of power to reach high levels, so subs with builtin crossovers require more amp to reach same sound pressure levels.

If you buy or already have subs with builtin crossovers, you can add an external crossover to them and then rather easily bypass the builtin crossovers....To bypass the builtin crossovers, you simply go inside the sub and wire by-pass the huge crossover....Connect the input jacks on the back of the speaker cabinet directly to the speaker leads and you are done.

When buying subs, I myself would never buy anything except 8 ohm subs(edited to correct thanks to Lonman).....4 ohm subs require twice the amp when bridged. Many times everything is connected using spade terminals-you just unplug the spade terminals and replug them leaving the crossover out of the circuit...sometimes things are soldered....once by-passed, leave the crossover in the speaker cabinet for when you sell it or if you revert back.

Kind of have to disagree with Keith here on getting subs rated at 4 ohms (unless it's a dual speaker sub enclosure).  If you happen to need 2 4 ohm subs hooked up in a bridged mode, then you have to have 2 separate amps as 2 4 ohms subs would yield a 2 ohms load which no amp will handle in a bridged mode.  Since you already have 2 8 ohm subs, when you run them together, they turn into a 4 ohm load, so you are good there.  It also effectively raises their power handling as well.  1 8 ohm speaker with a program power handling of 600 watts (which the Yamaha sub is) when hooked up together with another 8 ohm speaker (both speakers on the same channel) both speakers yield a 4 ohm load & will now handle 1200 watts collectively.

I don't know what you read on the Yamaha site, but bi-amping doesn't have anything to do with the stereo effect - however in MOST live music situations - INCLUDING karaoke, it's almost always best to run mono anyway.  Unless you have the speakers set-up just perfectly that everyone in the room can hear both speakers at all times, stereo isn't worth it - really!  
As far as the mixer output, as stated, you connect just as you would normally.  Both outputs would go into an electronic crossover such as the dbx 223XL.  Your high outputs would go the amp that will run you top speakers, the sub out - this crossover already has a mono sub output which combines both outputs for the sub - will go to the sub amp.
Can't remember which or if you mentioned which mixer you have so I couldn't tell for sure what kind of settings you'd be looking at.  When you get everything properly bi-amped & crossedover, you are probably going to find, you aren't going to need a whole lot of external eq'ing.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!