Karaoke Forums

I am planning to buy a compressor/limiter to protect my speaker and to suppress feedback... and perhaps a getting a dual channel 31 band EQ and a Sonic Maxizer later on.

Where should i place the compressor and EQ? Some of you said through the mic insert while some said in between the mixer main output and power amp... so I am a bit confused here.

Correct me if I am wrong, if the compressor+EQ is in between the main output and power amp, the compressor will not be able to differentiate vocal from music channel. So when someone suddenly sings loud or screams through the mic channel then the compressor will see an increase in overall "loudness", thus will kicks in to suppress the overall gain so as the result of that the volume of the music channel will be suppressed as well... am I right?

On the other hand if I placed them through the mic insert then I shouldn't have this problem. The mic feedback will be suppressed, the overall volume of the mic channel will also be "controlled" without affecting the music channel. But any "glitch" in the music channel might be dangerous to the speaker then?

Well you can do different things.    You can just compress the mikes.   Using insert cables.    Or you can compress the whole mixer.    Last thing before the amp.   EQ right before compressor.    I doubt if there will ever be a music blast loud enough to kill the speakers.   More likely with the mikes and drunks screaming and whistling in to them.    I had a guy do a "two fingers on the lip whistle" in the mike one night.   Almost broke everyones ear drums.   My ears rang/hurt for two days.

Right if you put the compressor on the overall mix, if someone screams, it will turn down the screamer, but it will also turn down the music as will effectively making it seem like the screamer is still louder than the music.  Stick on the vocal channel inserts, it will turn down thelouder/screamer singer & leave the music in tact.

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Do not compress already compressed music!

Place the compressor/limiter only on the mic channel/channels, and then use only as much as you need, start small and learn how/when/where to get heavy.

Feedback is first generated in the floor monitors if you have them, so if you have floor monitors, take care to place them exactly where they should go(on the floor pointing up at the singers face, and directly in front of the singer). Floor monitors are the first to get an EQ to control feedback, not the mains.

If you do not use floor monitors and you are experiencing feedback, then first make sure your mains are placed properly....your mains should be elevated to where the horns are higher than the heads of the dancers/audience and to each side of the singer, but out front of the singer or at least even with the singer....Never should a main speaker be placed where it can be directly 'heard' by a mic....Do not place a main where it is pointing even just a little at a mic....Simply said, if your mic can see any portion of the front grill of a main speaker, it is not correctly placed.

Once your mains and monitors are properly positioned, then when feedback occurs, reduce only the offending freqs.

You are correct to select a 31 band EQ as it is best suited to control feedback in that it can be used effectively without impacting a broad range.

Very few KJ's need an EQ to restore proper overall flat freqs because you are using recorded music....But they can serve you very well in controlling feedback.

The way I have my EQ set, you can hear a very big difference, if I turn it off in the middle of a song.   It's much fuller, on.    I bring up almost the entire frequency range on my 32 bands.     The individual mixer channels are "up" EQed too.

Having the singers "not cup the mike" helps feedback.  And keeping them from pointing them at the speakers helps too.    Reverb makes the mikes feedback easier.  The more reverb, the more likely to feedback.

You are using the compressor as you would a circuit breaker in your house.  It keeps the speakers from blowing, from distortion overload.

First of all thanks a lot Bigdog, Lonman and Keith02...


So in other words the speakers should always be placed lower than the height of the mic, with the speaker cone pointing directly to the singer then am I right? If the speaker is hanging on the ceiling pointing down to the singer then the mic could pick up more signal which is bad right?

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The ideal speaker placement would be like they set up concerts.  PA off to the side of the stage, as far as possible.    But that ain't gonna happen in most bars.   I have placed speakers on opposite ends of the room.   One pointing away from me and one pointing toward me.    I have played a two room set up with one set of speakers facing into one room and one set facing into the other.    I have people walking all over the bar when they sing.   If they keep the mike pointed in the right direction the feedback is minimal.  If they camp out in front of the speaker, then you could get some.  I tell them to move away from it.  


Ideal mike placement is with the bottom of the mike pointed directly at the speaker.    The business end pointed directly away from the speakers.     The closer the mike comes to crossing the front plane of the speaker, the closer it gets to feeding back.     Parallel to the floor is best.   If it starts to point up or down toward the speaker you're getting closer to feedback.   Side to side gets closer, too.    Straight up or straight down is bad.    Straight at the speaker is the worst.  

All speakers should be directed toward the crowd.     Subs on the floor.    Mids and horns on poles.    The horns should be higher than everybody's head.

[/quote]If you are talking about monitor speakers, they should be placed on the floor pointing back toward the singer and up at their chin.

Your gain structure is hosed up big time.

First at the board on the strips, you should try to cut and not boost, then increase mic gian to compensate for the cuts....On your main EQ, you should first insure your have proper gain coming into the EQ, then only cut where possible....once your cuts are made on the EQ, your restore loss of gain created by those cuts with your EQ out gain control.

The way you are doing things currently tells me you are running to little gain into your mics, then boosting in the strips, then once again too little gian into the EQ where you must boost again.

Go to Raine web site and read their study guide on gain structure. Peavey and Prosoundweb also have really good study guides on the subjet and more.

same principle applies to all other speakers as well (sit on the floor point back toward the singer)? my system is setup inside a room, not on live stage.

No, your main speakers should not be placed on the floor.

Ok, you are attempting to do exactly what I do already with my home rig....Cool, we can do this real easy.

You aren't attempting to audio reinforce a venue like you would when KJing a show out in town...Instead you just want a great system set up for home use....Yeah, we can do this really easy.

First place the main speakers all the way across the room and you place yourself close to the wall behind you. The mains should be near their back wall and raised up to where their horns are above your head alittle. Point the mains straight at you, but place them well apart from each other.

You ain't gonna need monitors with this setup cause you are getting full benifit from the mains.

So ok, you are now set up as described and you are getting feedback..."WHATS the cause ?", you ask. It's simply that the mains are bouncing off the wall behind you and then getting into your mic where that signal gets reamplified and sent out thru the mains again where it generates a self feeding loop...That's the squeal you hear...A self feeding loop that keeps reamplifying itself into a destructive and painful squeal.

How do you prevent it?...simple, you lessen the ability for the sound from the mains to reflect off the back wall. Make the back wall less able to reflect sound into you mic. But keep this in mind....As you increase the volume, you might over come those efforts.

If you are lucky enuff to have a huge room for home karaoke, then move your singing position away from any backwall.

To help you invision the concept of feedback, just imagine your room floor as if it was a pool table....Then imagine how the sound waves would be the pool balls bouncing around the table.

P.S.

Locating the mains against a back wall gives them lots more umph, especially in their lower range.....Raising the horns slightly above your head allows the highs to reach fully out and fill the room keeping them brite and crisp.

I never use a stage or monitors.    Most bars are not set up for any kind of live entertainment.    Most don't have stages.    Most don't have room for an ideal set up.    You will not have room for monitors.   Get use to hearing without them.   I don't even own monitors.    Make due with the area that you have.  That means speakers may end up at any end of the bar.   They could be facing at each other from opposite ends of the room.   I use 60 foot cables, so the speakers could be up to 120 feet apart.   I have been set up so I had to use 25 foot extensions on top of the 60.   There will be feedback issues that you willl have at any given moment.   It's just like live TV anything can and will happen.   Want to get real good, learn how to handle everything.   Know your equipment.    Be at the mixer at all times.

I always put my table and myself behind the speakers.   I do not want to be blasted all night with loud music.   Doing so you need to learn how to listen to the back of the room, while being at the front.   It takes a lot of talent to hear 60 feet away from where you are standing.    I teach my people how to do this.

I do not use feedback eliminators.    I use volume controls.    If they get feedback where they are standing and they don't want to move, I turn down the mike volume.  If it still feeds back, I'll turn it down a little more.   When you can't give them anymore mike volume, you have to turn down the miusic to match the vocal volume.    I turn down the reverb a little, if they start feeding back too much.    You need to learn how to mix each and every singer.  Some have very powerful voices.   The gain knob needs to be turned back.   To keep from distorting.   I am not a powerful singer.    I try to give strong singers a mike that can be more easily controlled.     Some mikes are hotter than others.  I give weak singers the hot mike.

AS far as EQ.  I have never touched my EQ settings from day one.  I do not change the EQ setting for different bars.    I have never felt the need to do this.   Every system will need to be EQed for it's optimal settings and sound.   Every piece of equipment changes the EQ.     My system is EQed to my taste.    Everyone says they have never heard better.   So you will have to use your judgement on how you want your system to sound.    I want to hear all of the frequnecies.  That means the lows, mids and highs are brought up.    That is why I will never play without subs.  You don't turn on your car radio and turn off the bass.   Why play without it at a bar.   All music was created with bass frequencies.    Part of my profesional sound and reputation.   If I can't play with my entire speaker system, I won't play at all.     Get some wannabe.   Because you don't need me.

Very well put Keith here is another setup I like to use See diagram....


Actually smaller rooms are easier to setup but because we are used to setting up in large areas we want to apply those tecniques and they dont work... A small room doesnt need a stage monitor or a bass and it doesnt take hundreds of watts. In a small area you have take advantage of the fact that the dispersal pattern (horn) is about 90 degrees Bass is more...In the diagram below the singer is in the top left corner Speaker 1 is angled to just miss him.. A baffle (red) can used if necessary. In the case of rear wall feedback a blanket or soft material can be put on the wall. Each  setup depends on the shape,size of the room and different baffles in the room. A hard ceiling will wreak havoc with acoustics even in bars...

Nope, once again I'll explain.

The reason it sounds much 'fuller' when turned on is because you are overdriving at the EQ and underamping at the mixer master outs....You don't have proper gain thru the mixer, so you reduce your masters, then you must recover at the EQ by ramping up most of your EQ channels....you should not hear it either louder or softer when EQ is switched in or out.....

Yes, you should hear the difference in that your sound should be more clearer and more defined, but not louder....Be careful before you answer, cause louder can always be confused with clearer. Clearity has nothing to do with loudness....In fact proper EQ clarity allows much lower overall loudness.

Try setting your mixer master outs to unity, the same for everything in the chain all the way into the EQ....Then if you cut/boost in the EQ make sure to restore to unity at the EQ output gain control.....All system gain should be first generated at the mic strip, and then simply maintained as close to unity as possible all the way thru the system to the amp inputs.

Your follow-up reply stating that you never reset your EQ from one venue to the next tells me you have no idea how to use it....not being snotty, just objective.

As far as how you set up, yes we all understand how flexible you must be bar to bar....For me, my ideal set up allows me to snake out front and sit behind the audience where I can truely hear what they hear.....The monitors I provide to help the singers provide their best performance possible.

I really love this forum as I keep learning new stuff from the pros (you guys) since day one... many thanks!  :worship: The equipments you guys talked about is really beyond my current level... but will try to apply the knowledge i learn here for future upgrade in a bigger space.

The speaker that I am using is much smaller you might thought.  I am using M-Audio BX8A (8" kevlar cone woofer 1" tweeter) as my main speaker, room size is about  13x17 ft (pls don't laugh hehe...). The Left/Right speakers is about 7 ft apart, and placed against the 17 ft wall elevated about 2 ft above the ground... singer is about 6-9 ft away from the speakers, either standing or sitting on the long cough.

since it is not the horn type speaker does the rule still apply then?

Yes, raise the speakers to about head high.....They are located fine if you are sitting, but too low for a standing performer....By the way, raising them higher will not degrade the sound for those seated.

It's not about horns/tweeters, it's because hi freqs disperse better when the speaker is placed higher up...subwoofers should be placed flat against a wall or even better in a corner....Once again it's due to freqs and propagation/dispersion issues associated with hi/lo freqs.

Yup Just experimrnt with placement. In closer quarters the eq etc for sytem should be adjusted a fairly low volume Also in a small room the amount of people are more of a factor too But the overall sound is highly affected by the amount of beer intake....

P.S.

Those little 8" M-Audios are big nuff for the room, just take care to use your compressor correctly on your mic strips....you need to compress the vocals to protect those speakers....The music is already compressed and will not harm the speakers, but vocals can do it instantly if not properly filtered/controlled...If your mixer has inserts on the mic strip, then simply insert the compressor there.

some speaker has the so-called "output current limiter" built-in. just wondering is this sufficient for protection purpose in this case?