Karaoke Forums

Don,

ALL are allowed.  Are all TRULY welcomed however ?  It all depends on ones perspective.  Babies are allowed to be babies too.  But does a party of adults always want a screaming baby around ?  Do pro's always welcome hacks joining them ?  Is a performance to be half-assed ?   Do observers like ugly expressions ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

This is a very interesting combination of "emotion" and "philosphical" outlook we are combining here !  I love it !

Let's look at it a slightly different way.  How sociable a person TRULY is.  Take eating as an example.  I HATE eating with others around.. Why, I don't know.. In some ways to me, social activities, bodily functions and EVEN human expression merge !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Hmmm... Well, in a broader perspective is this a free society with a certain amount of tolerance expected or is it a restricted club of sorts?  Of course bad performers are a pain on the auditory system for critical listeners, but still aren't less then perfect performers allowed to perform and hopefully learn from the audiences reaction concerning their present abilities?

I know what you're getting at here.  Eating to me, is a rather personal thing.  I can't stand hearing other people chewing their food, swallowing etc. And I don't expect others to particularly enjoy my eating habits either.  LOL  It's a weird trait for sure.  I for one never say anything after a person sneezes, such as God bless you.  I just don't think God has much of anything to do with sneezing or any other bodily functions.  

I believe it's ALL perspective.  Along the lines of "those that watch" and "those that participate".  I'm not correct.  Arguably I'm not "living my life to the fullest".

Similarly some marry, others question "commit FOREVER WTF"...

I believe alot comes into play here about a person Don.  Needless to say, I'm quite a "rigid" person.  I'm not a "risk taker",  I don't just "jump into life freely"..  I CERTAINLY will not try to push MY perspective down anyones throat. It's not fun, however IT IS how I am TODAY, likely tomorrow as well.  Since this thread was "Kappy sub'ing", I felt I should be ENTIRELY honest (in terms of HOW honest I can even be with myself in here as well, this isn't even about "logic", it's perspective on aesthetics, and emotional makeup of the individual),  This IS how I feel, and live my life !  It's also an indication of how I've learned to view "General public".  I DO believe people are often collectively judgmental, and nasty.

JMHO !    (Not trying to sell it)

I'd really enjoy hearing other perspectives on this.  SUBJECT MATTER only. Not telling me how F__'ed up *I* am.. We already KNOW THIS ! .

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Don.

  Just because something is "allowed" IMO does not mean it's for any and ALL. There's also what I consider a certain amount of etiquette involved.  Knowing our limitations, reading others (not what they SAY that we can see ie... *singer's showcase is an example*, but what is actually being said that they feel)  I believe a certain amount of perspicaciousness (I can't think of a better word, but for those who believe I feel compelled to throw around large words, this means ability to read others, or insight) ESPECIALLY by the performer, *IS* in fact a wise thing, I *AM* a performer, HOWEVER I KNOW when NOT to perform as well, reason being to me *A wise* performer/ person knows what he DOES NOT know (IMHO) as well as what he does know, the performance IS for those that can perform, there are plenty of ways people can make fools of themselves IMHO too,  I'd rather NOT do this in front of a large group if this can be avoided...AO.  

When we get under a spotlight, we can gain respect, or make a blatant a$$ out've ourselves.  Similarly some that have "9"'s in SS, are getting laughed at, because in reality, they are 2 or 3..  THIS, to me, is why lying becomes a problem.  Yet not necessarily either.  In some cases ignorance IS bliss !!

Some in the audience scrutinize the performer !
again JMO...


This is WHY I believe Singer's Showcase is not Karaoke, it's a Singing Performance.

When I listen to YOUR submission, I'm NOT listening to the backing.  I've heard that millions of times on FM radio.  I am listening to *YOUR* singing.  I'm not watching your expression seeing how much fun you are having,  I've NEVER seen you.. I do not know you... I am listening to YOUR SINGING !  To me this constitutes performance;  I know very little of how you look, who you really are, where your talents are, if in fact you have any at all.   This is a way you show how you sing IMO...

If I know I can't sing, What am I showing you by submitting ?   On a different note as friends YES we can ALL help one-another,  but AS FRIENDS,  (not a judgmental audience), HENCE... I will learn to sing, and admit my faults to *my friends*, those that DO CARE. I believe Singer's Showcase is a great thing for those who can sing, GENUINELY want feedback, and honest comments.  Some see SS as a reality, not a fantasy. I like to hear singing, actual music.. I don't enjoy watching romper-room and kids running around screaming even though they are enjoying themselves... This is blunt, but it's matter of fact..

Make sense ?    To me it does !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I am honored that you would even entertain this discussion. Knowing how you feel about performing and how rigid your life has helped you to become, it does surprise me.

I was until very recently, very rigid as well about very similar things. Communication was also out of the question for me. I can respect your thoughts and feelings toward art. I understand on some level and used to think very similarly.

Being open to discussing any of this was something I knew would not be safe for me in the past. It was a way to get a chair launched through a window. People tried to talk to me as I was like this but to no avail. I tried not to be that way, and hated it and myself with every fiber of my being. An intervenion of my own making that took years and a lot of effort on my own part was the only solution for me.

You seem to manage to stay in touch with your intelect. Mine would fail me as my hypothalumus would vacillate between cooperative and not.

I do not envy you your life experiance, but I do envy the way you are able to rise above it on your own and to even discuss subjects that might seem diplorable to you. It seems beyound my grasp to have done this myself in my darker years. WHile aI was still a candidate for MENSA, it was impossible to be around me. I never physically hurt anyone but plenty of damage was done still. I gave up genius to be civil, a hard choice but not impossible.

While we have this opportunity to urge you and even poke fun even though it seems that doing either is hoping that we are not left alone with the lion we have been intagonizing, I will enjoy this conversation. Firstly I know that even if you did "bite" you would not do so with all of your capabilities and leave yourself without a way to make ammends later, and secondly you agreed to this so you are more likely to allow things to be said that you would not otherwise tolerate. Thirdly, you are a decent person, at least online, who would prefer to communicate with people in the ways that we are familiar with allowing us to become familiar with you as well.

Your way of thinking about art leaves no room for you to ever sing in singers forum but that doesn't mean that we won't try. Many people who are overly educated about art forget the importance that art is expression. I hate rap music but that doesn't mean that it's not art. I never liked much of Andy Worhal, the little that I know.

Keep thinking your way if you wish but you may be worn down and if so we will dominate and force you to sing. We will attempt to hold your feet to the flame while others of us will attempt to trick you. You may yet be defeated.

Take that Steven Kaplan.

 Thanks Chuck !

THat was a great post actually !!

Yes, there are MANY sides to this discussion.  As some of us have learned to laugh at outselves,  WE DO not in all respects of life do this.  In fact there's a reason we do this, often we are brutally tough on ourselves !  It's exhausting seeing certain things as we do !   Yet that doesn't make our perspective any less real.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I do hereby solemly agree with Steven Kaplan on the subject heretofore mentioned in the above paragraph. I will do my best to uphold my end of this agreement.

Chuck, Billy et al..

 I think there's another big difference here as well regarding "Karaoke".

 EVEN stated in my welcoming post:

 To me, Karaoke IS not for fun.  I REALLY REALLY want to be able to sing well ! I don't want to sing like Dylan, or somebody I don't like the sound of, I either sing well, or do it in a bathroom behind closed doors along with OTHER things people aren't to see  LOL

  Here:

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Just don't give up on singing. If you ever have the urge, it is best to excercise it. If public singing doesn't apeal for any reason, that's cool, just do it where you are the only audience.

I think it is too basic to give up entirely. It might even be a need that we should not ignore.

No No,  I will NOT give up HOPING, and trying to sing.  I've been struggling a LONG time, Although I haven't had a chance to formally take lesson's, I tape myself trying at least once a week, and this is why I started my post in Singer's forum asking for help... if it's an area of music, I DO take it very seriously !   It's just something in life that comes easier to others,  for some reason this IS BRUTAL for me,  VERY tough.. Not unlike golf for some, ALOT of critical concepts and techniques a person must relearn, and establish, alot is psychological of course too that impedes ones progress.

The thing here I believe, is that for me Karaoke IS NOT for fun, It never was.. I view it as a session trainer, for part of an area I try to be a professional in.

The KJ here has a right to wish to be professional. I BELIEVE so does the "Singer".

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

In fact, Golf is a great analogy, when I started learning, I got plenty of invitations to join 4-sums.  I took people up on it, the invitations VERY quickly came to an end

I think although I was "allowed" to golf there,  the condo's that incurred damaged siding, broken windows, smashed flower pots, wish I was not !  No, they weren't directly ON the fairway,  of course neither was my golfball at the times of damage.
We can't ALL do everything.

Billy is a great singer and golfer,  I totally SUCK at both !!

Although I LOVE singing, and admire those that CAN sing ! Have worked with them, I separate myself from the pool that CAN sing !  To me being able to sing *IS* a fantasy, not a fact !  

As strange as it seems,  I feel I have some control over a live audience, but NOT a Singer's Showcase type audience... IE... Expression, blending with the audience, timing as to when it's ok to attempt something you aren't that good at, who genuinely wants you, how others accept you, etc.. To me this is EASY in real as a performer..

I'd rather see people laughing, and rolling their eyes,  than telling me I was "pretty good", while they are in fact "laughing and rolling their eyes"... This is why I dislike the showcase..  I DO want SOME honesty. To some it's safe because they CAN live a fantasy, I can't believe that type fantasy however.  That's not the place for it. To me it's real..  This is why I suppose I use the term "potentially hostile audience"..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

My mother had the most beautiful mezzo sop voice I have ever heard. She was very well trained too. She took lessons from the time she was in her mid teens till I was nearly in my mid teens. Had she never studied she might still have has the best female voice I've ever heard.

Because of her my sister and I never sang where she or anybody could hear us. My sister still has a problem with this even though her voice is just as pretty as my mom's once was. My father can pick any instrument and play it within ten minutes, usually quite well. He was able to get three notes out of a drinking horn that was only supposed to provide two. He can turn things into musical instruments and not just as percussion instruments either. My sister and I still have trouble even playing a six-string because of this. I have one yamaha guitar that I have never played a chord on because I am afraid to. I'm sure you can guess why.

I had this really weird idea that to do anything not well was not worth doing. You can't just start off doing something well. I was afraid to even practice. Playing drums was the one thing I tried to do. Being a percussion instrument, I felt that it was different enough to allow me the space to learn to master it. After two years of practice, I found that my voice was still ten times better than my drum playing. I began taking lessons in voice.

This was a tough decision because I couldn't handle having the subject come up for ridicule by my mom. WHat encouraged me was finding out that one day while I was practicing some Rob Halford (Judas Priest) vocals in my room with the stereo, my mom commented to my sister what a nice voice Rob Halford had. My sister told her that she was hearing two singers and the more pleasant voice was her own son. I though they could not hear me above my stereo, I was wrong. My mom never discussed it with me until just a year before she passed. My sister told me within the week because she knew what it meant to me.

I can relate on some level Steven.

A lot of my "heroes" as it were, are not able to perform live the way they do in the studio. There are many things that these days are common knowledge that come in the way of singing on the road.

To me that is the worst of it. Sing hih in the studio only to lose your high voice by the third concert. It's like playing with only half of your strings live. The still do it.

The live albums you can hear are often recorded when the singer still has a voice. Most of my guys can't keep that up. I couldn't either.

Right,  I never grew up in an environment where "the arts" were an interactive game, or scrabble, monopoly etc..  I was put in instruction before I could talk, actually probably before I was 4.. I was hit, yelled at, chastised for making mistakes.. I grew up with parents that were drill sargeant types... For some strange reason I STILL love music despite this Chuck,  but it MIGHT just be that as a result of what I was trained to do, it got me positive recognition later in life.. It was an area I was quite good in, also the only area many respected me in. It's logical WHY I'd like it,  It become a positive social tool !  As for music being "game" or "fun" ?  No..  Not until my late teen years...  Rock, girls, etc..

I just was not brought up believing the arts are "casual".  To me they were an arduous highly competive way of life..



To you it was YOUR idea,  It was instilled in me that THE LAST thing you EVER do, is perform something "you do not do well".  That is basically going to a final exam in a course, without ever cracking a book or studying.. You FAIL !  OF COURSE we should DO THINGS, we suck at, or aren't good at, PRACTICE alot.

Recitals in fact are for those learning TOGETHER, to rank and help one-anther, perhaps a trial with peers as jurors  LOL .. Singers Showcase however to me is not a recital, it's an out and out performance !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I got that way on my own, I was fortunate my parents where not like that. Had they been, I would probably be afraid to sing too.

My early musical upbringing was "boot camp" Chuck.. VERY serious musicians around me. It wasn't "a game".  Some think only career exams and grades on boards in grad school are what matter...  THAT was music for me..  I was raised to be a professional, not a hack, it's what my mom thought of the "arts", that they were a thing of beauty, and not to be vulgar.. YOU ONLY perform if you excel !
While I'd like to look at things more casually, in a sense it's VERY tough to. I fault noone who see's this casually, I suppose I don't really understand Karaoke, nor have I really evolved into it's realm... I guess I'll learn alot from here as well ~


Some were raised to be professional athletes, artists etc...  Some don't understand this

It's interesting how it's done too.. let me give you an example.. My mom taught piano while pregnant with me.. My basonette (poor students that had to tolerate me) was next to the piano while she taught when I was an infant. They played music non-stop around me... at one I got a tiny toy piano that looked pretty and was appealing. At around two they started flopping my hands on the keys and showing me black key, white key.. At three they MADE me start a series of mathematical type musical stuff called "Pencil Play".... Hollow note, note stem, sold note, rest...shapes, lines, patterns... At four piano lessons, but I got praise when I sucked of course, they wanted me to LOVE it... until the boot camp started at around 5-6... I was in it for the ride... etc.  Performing on stage VERY young.. huge crowds.. I didn't fear it, I didn't know better...Later on, performing was NOT meant to be fun. It was critical, you WERE judged, graded, and taught, "People will not tell you you look like a fool", you have a responsibility to your audience ALWAYS.  They pay to see you perform.. Not to see a hack. 6-9 I hated practicing my piano an hour a day while I saw my friends outside chasing girls, and having fun.. I had to. They didn't allow me to quit.. When I was old enough to want to get out've it, I started seeing a different side of it... People liked me because I was good at something... on and on..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Chuck, you have innate perspicacity in relation to this subject.  Incidentally Steve, you are not alone in your preference to eat by yourself.  First time I've heard this brought up by someone--I tend to be the same way.

Hmm...my take on this. I a new here so not really versed in any of the etiquette or assumptions; however I assume this is an online karaoke forum, and like live performed karaoke it is mostly informal and supposed to be for fun. When I go to karaoke - wherever there are all levels of talent, some very good - even professional and some really bad. We're all there to be social and share, and sing because whether we are good or not, singing the songs we love somehow frees us and inspires us and there is something bigger than ourselves in sharing that with others. That said, when I started singing in Karaoke I sucked. I think I have improved, but even now there are songs I can do well at and some I just can't sing. That is true for everyone. Everyone has at least one song that if they learn and practice enough and it is their style then they can do well. I am not judgemental in karaoke. I don't think much of anyone is. No doubt we all wish to be better, we all wish to be perfect, but life is not like that. If we never perform or do anything because we aren't perfect then truly we never would do anything because it is through humility, patience, hard work, effort, and learning that we improve. In a karaoke forum no one has to sing, but everyone appreciates the efforts that others make to share. Certainly you don't have to submit if you don't want to, but you might encourage yourself to become more involved and make an effort to polish a song to share. If you don't do as well as you like and you know you can do better, then you can always re-submit later. People will likely applaud your growth and determination.

Songs I submit are probably some of the better ones I sing, but not necessarily. I try and do a good job, and am seeking perfection - that is a good thing to strive for. However I will not only submit perfect performances. For instance, of the 25 I just recorded all of them had to vocal mic turned down too low and perhaps the bass too high. I didn't know that until after a long drawn out process on my computer and other's opinions that I needed to adjust it. So I suppose I'll probably go back and try and adjust next time. Maybe I will be successful. There are so many variables with equipment and musical adjustments, equalizations. Some are done for affect and some are just artifact like a bit of background noise / hum in my recordings.  Anyway, if I get a perfect one out there let me know and I'll be happy. Hey that's a good point and one I've heard from others. Sometimes the songs we think we are good at we aren't really as good at, and some we think are lacking others seem to love. It appears this quality is somewhat hidden individually from us. In other words we don't necessarily have the ability on a song to know when we are "perfect". As they say 'beauty is in the eyes of the beholder'. How many songs can you think of that you love that others don't? Taste is individual.

You should read "Jonathan Livingston Seagull" by Richard Bach http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/038001 ... e&n=283155 also check out the musical score by Neil Diamond and motion picture. The story is about the individual and collective quest for perfection.