Karaoke Forums

Hey Red,

  I apologise for not having had a chance to get to the other songs I promised I'd get to, and intended to get to as well  :(   Fact is, between having too many other negative things in real life distracting me, and keeping things cluttered, I just didn't have the mindset to listen objectively, or the time.. Hopefully, COLLECTIVELY the singers reading in here, will take you up on your offer, and get this ball rolling. It CAN'T just be me.. It takes US, or MANY singers..What it doesn't take is extensive musical knowledge, just the desire to help others.


  This is an example of what I also wanted to make mention of. It takes MORE members making a serious commitment to helping other members in such a setting. Critique takes time. It's not a 5 or 10 minutes process.  This is why in reality, when we critique another member we really are doing them a favor, we are taking time ONLY for the purpose of helping them. Ego should be left out've it, in fact it MUST be to an extent.

   Like everything else, it takes more than myself, or two or three members that are serious about music, singing, etc to get any process working.  *I* can't possibly critique everyone who'd like an actual critique.  I'd burn out.  After two critiques neck and neck (assuming I do have that type of time) I'm worn out. It's not a good time for me to be objectively listening to a third with a clear head ( and times that I can listen with a "clear head" are few and far between as well)

   In brief, what Red has mentioned is EXACTLY the type of thing I'd love to see this thread evolve into..  Members coming here to freely and openingly discuss their songs in Singer's Showcase, ask others questions, compare ideas, and discuss freely ANY aspect of singing, theory, musicianship etc..  It's solely up to those that want this type of thing, to keep it afloat.

    Since most of us in here, are aware by now that Singer's Showcase IS NOT a place where you are likely to get more intricate exchanges regarding your submitted material, hopefully this thread CAN be such a place.


    Hopefully people will take you up on your offer Red, either posting observations in here, sending them to you personally, or whatever your preference is.

    This place is for you singers to worry just about issues of your singing, and music aspects.

    The more you folks start participating, the more I can back off, shut up, and learn something too.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Thanks, Michael...I've never had an intructor use the "p" sound in a warm up.

Can somebody tell me how a beginning singer finds their proper register ?  Is there a means of comparing your singing voice with your talking voice ?  going to the piano, and figuring out that "this is the general area" my range falls IE... baritone, second tenor, etc ?  or is singing just an entirely different process ?  I'm basing this on something Chris had mentioned earlier, "Singing is like talking in a different pitch".  How would I establish my singing range ?  Where would I start ?

Perhaps there's internet reference material, or even Amazon.con has books on "how to sing".  Any suggestions ?  While I play around, I never took a serious approach, or dedicated effort to learning the process.  I'd like to at this point.  It's the reason I got involved with Karaoke in the first place.  To try to learn how to sing, as well as play instruments.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Red I'd be happy to listen to you (well hell, I already do) if you have things I've not heard you want me to give you a more stringent kind of feedback on--I've done a few people here--don't worry I'm not nasty!  I do have one piece of advice for you; I have noticed this on a few of your recordings which generally, are very well done (I never fluff in my comments on SS--actually if I comment to anybody, regardless of what I say, it's because I enjoyed them) so if you are interested just PM me.  Thanks, Michael

As you know, Steven, I am all too aware that Singers Showcase is not the place to receive a critique.  People are reluctant to offer them for the many reasons you have so articulately laid out in these forums.  I don't ask for critique over there anymore because I have yet to receive an actual critique.  When someone asks specifically to tell them what they need to work on in a song, I have tried to mention at least one thing provided I pick up on it.  I will admit, my ear for zeroing in on problems with the really GOOD singers (Michael being one of them) is very difficult for me to do.  I just haven't developed an ear for that.  You mentioned listening to a recording several times and taking notes somewhere.  I had never actually considered doing that in the past, but can surely see how that would help to improve my ear and will adopt that method.  I would love to participate as a person who can eventually offer a helpful critique, yet it may take me some time to develop some proficiency at it.  If I don't pick up on something while in the learning process, I hope people will understand it's not due to a lack of trying.  

I am not here to be fluffed.  I want you to know that I understand why this thread was created and am totally on board with it.  To receive a critique, I can see the benefit of having it posted on the thread here or done in private.  If posted here, we can all benefit from discovering the kinds of observations others make and it would also help me to learn to listen with the right kind of attention to other singers if other critiques can be read here.  The benefits of receiving a private critique are obvious.  I don't think a critique posted over in Singers Showcase is a good idea because there will be people over there who will misinterpret it as bashing, which would end up being counterproductive.  I guess I'd like to start out by receiving a few private critiques just to know where I'm at, then to eventually move to public critiques for the reason stated above.  I'll just ask over here if there's a song I'd like someone to listen to.  If anyone would like to critique "Evergreen," I would really love to hear your thoughts.  Of course, I would be willing to make an attempt, though feeble as it may be, to help out with critiques.

No need to apologize for not critiquing more of my songs, either.  I am more aware now of the effort it requires.

I've been perusing this topic and trying to catch up. I am serious about my singing but I suppose not serious enough to truly puruse and practice, but I do have a couple of points.

1. I developed batter control over my vibrato by intentionally trying to eliminate it completely when holding a note. That way I figured out what my body was doing to cause the vibrato in the first place. I find it much harder to hold a "true" note.

2. I would prefer serious critiques by singers in this thread then singers on SS. And by singers of whom I request a critique. I like the warm fuzzies from the showcase. Also, if I get a harsh critique from a singer whose talents I do not respect, I will not take it seriously. (BTW, I have nobody in mind--I just know it could happen).

3. Singing and speaking voice can differ greatly. I have a midwestern twang when I speak (and I hate it) and sound very flat and nasal. Chuck's uncle (a recovering rock guitarist) was astounded when he first heard me sing--he said he would not have known from my speaking voice that I could sing like that.

4. Sing some songs in the shower, Kappy. Let this group know which ones were most "comfortable" for you and they may help you narrow down your range. You may be blesed with a huge range like my Chuck--although he is a baritone, that does not keep him from belting out a number of higher-than exepcted numbers.

_________________
[glow=darkorchid]Musica delenit bestiam feram[/glow]

Gigi,  The problem is, I'm REALLY unable to hear myself, as others hear me. The few times I've sat at the piano and tried to sing, I've been told "It sounds as though you are forcing your voice to be higher, it doesn't sound "right". Yet if I play a song such as Maybe I'm amazed, I've been told my voice sounds OK when I play in a key like Bb..and I just sing in a Natural range for me, which likely WOULD be around my talking voice area I suppose.  THe problem is, to me when I sing higher, it sounds better, UNTIL I listen on tape, It sounds HORRIBLE on tape.... It's strange, however I've been told by others as well.... EVEN on tape,  We can't alot of the time hear ourselves as others hear us. The phenomenon according to a speech pathologist is actually a physiological phenomenon, I don't recall the intricate details regarding vibration, path of sound travel to our ears, and the psychological issues involved, but apparently many people, at least initially DO NOT like the sound of their own voice when they first hear it on tape.

It's kind of interesting, what I've observed (at least in my own case), is that when I sing, I hear with my imagination, iow... I hear the actual vocalist of the song I am performing singing the part, NOT myself..  When I play that same performance back on tape, I'm HORRIBLY embarassed. This might not be an uncommon phenomenon for performers either.  I know many actors and actresses who cringe and have a VERY difficult time watching themselves acting roles.

It's just strange that I have a tough time differentiating between "My Voice" and the real aspects of what I sound like,  and "What and who I want to sound like when I sing". It's strange, I know.. But I don't hear myself, as I actually sound, that I'm pretty certain of.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Did you know men are the only ones with falsettos?  We guys have "two voices"...more to come....

Red,

  Any ideas on how we can get this started ?  Do you think just discussing it in here is enough ?  Or do you think it takes the commitment of a group of us that are willing to Critique ?

   In a different area I posted how Muses Muse, describes the Critique process, and what the goal is.  They actually have a description explaining "the purpose".  In such a case should we specify the genres we have experience in ? and feel we can critique in ?  or don't we need to be quite so specific. My concern is if we try to "just let things happen", they won't.  

   If anyone has ideas how we can make this work ?  Or a way to get it going, PLEASE post them.  This thread is for EVERYBODY that enjoys singing and wants a place to discuss areas of their singing, more technical aspects of songs they sing, ANYTHING singing.  People don't have to sing "well" either, ..  This is just meant to be a thread for people who wish to talk about singing aspects and music ONLY. To share info to IMPROVE as Singers/Musicians. Everybody is welcome.

   I believe most can agree, that if we want a Critique, we need to be willing to take the time to offer them in exchange.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I think some kind of commitment would be needed.  It would be great if we all knew who the pool of critiquers are...those willing to participate.  I know some will be able to give better critiques than others, because of background and experience, but it's gotta start somewhere.  I'll have to give it some thought in terms of ideas on how to implement something like this.

Thanks.  ANY ideas would be appreciated.  I am willing to participate but my abilities (naturally) are limited.  We all have our limitations however. There's ALOT of music genres out there. I'm very familiar with Classic Rock, and Ballad periods of popular styles.  Having lived most of my life in the Northeast suburbs, I'm not familiar with traditional country styles, I'd have to defer Country ONLY for that reason. I lack experience in traditional country styles.  Country Rock however, I'm more familiar with.  Since I decided to break away from "Classical" music at a younger age, Opera and Classical styles also are too sophisticated for me to Critique.  I just don't have the ability.

Ballad, and Rock, R&B Styles I'd be willing to offer feedback on assuming people want it..

That's *MY* resume as part of a group !  For Show and old Vocal Standards such as "rat pack", we have members right in here that are quite good, Members studying vocals too !  I'd prefer that somebody with more knowledge of those areas of music takes those particular genres. I can't "Critique" those areas in a way that would help the more sophisticated singer. I have music knowledge, Not singing knowledge.  I've written arrangements, Initiated and directed Glee Clubs, and Barbershop quartets.  However as I've made quite clear, when it comes to "how to sing", I have NO knowledge except from what I learn in this forum from all of you. When I was actively performing, I minded my own business, and "played along". The voice is just an instrument I never learned how to "play". I've accompanied both male and female vocalists MUCH of my life however in band situations, and as a lounge pianist.

My strongest area would likely be the "Candlelight Cocktail" type ballad song. "easy Listening" styles, or today that genre is often referred to as "Light Jazz" "Adult contemporary Ballad " or yes ~ even Elevator music. I have extensive knowledge of this style of music, as a musician.

Based on that, and what you all know of me.  That's my experience; Based on this, If you want *ME* to Critique a particular song, please let me know, and give me a 1-3 day period (only because I like to allow for a block of time where I can listen AT LEAST several times to your work, take notes, and if necessary, do a head-to-head with the original version I usually have access to, that is assuming you are going for "the Cover", and not trying to make a song "your own", it makes a difference in a Critique setting of course). I can not Critique a song just based upon listening to it once, I don't believe that's a fair sampling for a "Critique".  It takes time to analyze something, and organise thoughts accordingly. while I'm multitasking, and have other distractions, I won't be Critiquing anything, so give me a few days.  I need to give your work full attention.


OK... That's where I come from..



Which was yet another reason I started this thread. The better the Singer, the tougher it is to "Critique".  I don't think there's any question regarding that fact. As I asked in my initial post on this thread.  "What do those of you aspiring pros that most of us may perceive as the steady fabulous sounding singers in the Showcase listen for" Some of us can't hear anything wrong.  Like all artists, the really really good artists, singers, etc, Do need the more sophisticated person with talent in their craft to act as a sounding board for them.  I don't think most (even with some musical ability) can Critique some of the vocalists in Showcase accurately. We all have limitations, and it's very important to be open and honest with these limitations.

I'll only do this on a "first come first serve" basis.  Meaning if 4 people wish for a critique at the same time,  whether I consider you a friend or not.  I'll only do the fair thing and listen in an order of requested Critique. I won't give more priority to a specific person, or song, just because *I* like it more. If I respond by saying "I don't feel qualified", I'm not saying anything in an underhanded way.  I'm saying *I* can't Critique your song because it exceeds my ability. Some of you are better musicians than I am.  In some cases I can help, othertimes I can't. Any Critique, or feeling I have is JUST that.  How *I* feel at the time I post to you. It might be incorrect, it's MY perception, and isn't grounded in "fact". This is a subjective area. There are no absolutes.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I would be happy to help those looking for a critique from me and I've adopted the same methods as Steve, listening to the selection a number of times and taking notes.  While I have a lot to learn as a singer, I do have a background in music as a former professional pianist (and who knows? Maybe one day I'll return!), so if those credentials are enough that you'd like me to try and help you out, just PM me. I am  active now in vocal lessons, and while I've not been engaged in this terribly long (about 5 months to date), I'd be happy to pass along any information I've received and can apply at least some of the things I've learned to what I'm hearing.  

I am probably not the best suited person to review heavy metal or contemporary music (although I appreciate the best of both, I'm not really deep enough into them to know the really "fine" points the serious musician is looking for), but if it's the standards, "easy listening", jazz, swing, disco, light country--styles in that family, that works best for me!  Michael

Michael, although it's really difficult for me not to want to just cut up with you and have fun, I think you know I would really appreciate that from you... Since, I can't afford to pay a coach, I'll just let you keep paying yours and you can GIVE it to me... I like that idea!!!...xox

_________________
Just Shut Up and Sing!!!!!!!Sing it like ya' mean it!!!

Hey, I find the things I learn really interesting and I enjoy passing it on to others if they appreciate it---and you!! You don't need any advice! Now get back to that microphone!

Michael, Do you ever get depressed??... You are one of the best cures for mine that I've found... However, we both know that there is always room for improvement...and I have plenty of room. TYVM

_________________
Just Shut Up and Sing!!!!!!!Sing it like ya' mean it!!!

No Ellan, despite what one wag stated earlier this evening about my needing "counciling" I am never depressed, probably because I've been overdepressed for a long time and now have been recompressed, which leads us into the vital subject of mixing.  Where am I going with this...somebody help me....

Oh yes! Here's something the teacher showed me...this is related in part to the "jaw" loosening exercise I had written out earlier.  The jaw should alway be loose, never tense and one way to condition yourself that notion physicall is to:
1. Stand in the mirror (where I always admire my beautiful bridgework right off the bat).
2.  Take both index fingers of both hands and press them to your cheeks right where the lower jaw opens (where your dimple would be).....press these fingers into the area where the jaw opens until you feel your jaw lowering itself (not too much force).
3.  Do a few scales, sing, whatever...do this for a few minutes.

ASTONISHINGLY, your jaw will feel where it should be and you will be singing like Lily Pons right before your very eyes. That is until the tension might come back (and usually start clenching my jaw when tutition payments are mentioned, so this comes in handy).

I was going to add that when you can eat a banana sideways you have achieved the overall goal of these exercises, but changed my mind.  Take care!

I am willing to offer critique. I will use Kappy's method as well, the part I was missing was taking notes.

We all have diffent ways of listening. This is why it might be a good idea to get the opinions of a few people. If you want someone who has extensive training in music, I'm not your man. If you want an objective ear, someone who has practiced ad nauseum without the benefit of classes or persoanl instruction, I can help.

Reputation will win out no matter what is decided.

I also recomend getting the opinion of someone such as Lonman for points on recording, mixing, effects, etc. If he doesn't mind taking the time and participating.

If I post anything in the future to be "critiqued" I wil ask for general help from anyone who might not mind setting aside the time. I would hope to get more than one opinion in that case.

When I asked for help on my Mack The Knife sub, the people who helped all heard different things, every one of them was worth taking note of. I was truly greatful for the help I received.

I am willing to help, if anyone is willing to receive my help is another thing. I do have something to offer, although it won't include any respectable schooling on my part. I will offer my best though.

I'm also aware that the method *I* use is time consuming.  Not all asking for a Critique request such detail, Individuals have their own methods of Critiquing, similarly most asking for a Critique have different needs.  The method I use in fact, is so time-consuming, that in a different thread certain individuals felt that between real life demands, Listening to a large number of Singers which is also necessary for many, commenting, MY method made the process too cumbersome for them.  ANY method a person wants to use I'm sure is fine assuming the party asking for a Critique

1)  Genuinely means they want a Critique
2)  Is prepared to accept well inteded opinions of others without getting defensive


    and of course:

      The Critiquing party hasn't lost site of the TRUE purpose and meaning of the
      Critique.  "To help somebody improve as a Singer"

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Kappy, from my limited knowledge I can tell you still a little something that might help. What part of your range are you most comfortable using/What part do you have the most control over? What parts feel the best? what part sounds the best in your head?

These are a few of the questions I have to ask myself anytime I go to sing. Having allergies and not taking good care of my voice makes this necessary as my voice is not consistent. I have been known to be able to sing regardless of the condition of my voice though. I once lost my normal voice which was then replaced with something like a cross between Louis Armstrong and Redd Fox. It still sounded good  although my range was limited. I actually got requests to sing certain songs because it turned out to be a refreshing change from the same ol' song and dance.

Well, enough about me, lat's talk about you. So, are you from around here often?

My talking range Chuck,  I think this is a range that requires the LEAST amount of extra effort if I were to try to sing,  Believe it or not,  I don't even know what range that is.  I should sit down with a tape recorder, figure THIS much out, and comparing the pitch of my talking range with piano notes, figure out if I'm Baritone, 2nd Tenor, etc.  I suspect baritone

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".