Karaoke Forums

I've encountered a number of KJ's that attempt to work both sides of the fence. Keep regular club weekend shows and do private events, weddings, etc etc. Often  as a frequent occurance. Having subbed for several of these situations, what I've observed it leading to is ultimately being let go by the bar. Here's the deal from the standpoint of a bar owner........

1. First and foremost they are looking for RELIABILITY and DEPENDABLITY-are you going to be there for them, without disruptions, confusion, drama.

2. Are they number one in your priotity list--or are they just a secondary concern or at most a convience for YOU

3. Do they feel that you see them as LESS important and that you will choose another event paying YOU more with them having to settle for SECOND BEST with a sub, every other weekend or so.

4. Do they have to deal with the complaints and questions about wheres the regular guy and this sub sucks.

5. Are they losing THIER business so YOU can be at a more luctrative gig.

The net result I've observed is they will tire of it and you and send you packing.

The conclusion I've reached is you cant have it both ways. If you are a mobile event DJ that takes you away on weekends then thats what you have to be. If you are going to be a club DJ then thats what you have to be. Straddling the fence and trying to be in two places at once will leave the club owner feeling like he's second on the list and NOT your priority and that he's holding the bag. So I've come to belive that you have to do one or the other. The club HAS to have the same person night after night(illnesses or vacations notwithstanding). To try and do your show with recurring substitutions is shortchanging not only the club's and your businesses.

Sorry cant have your cake and eat it too.

Comments????

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

you mean a subject about karaoke?  really?  oh, c'mon......really?  ok, well if this isn't for real, i mean if this is some kind of candid camera joke......ok

so, good subject.
i have an understanding with the management at my bar that there will be occasions where i will not be available, be it anothr gig or vacatoin or whatever.  i have a regular guy that subs for me and i trained him so he's just as good (or bad) as i am.   it's actually not much different from when i'm there because he uses alot of the same techniques that i use.  (even uses some of the same jokes!)  granted i am gone maybe 3 or 4 gigs out of the year so in honesty i shouldn't have replied to this topic, but i'm too lazy to go back and erase all of it.  i know i could just hit the back button or click one of the links above but i'm too lazy for that, too.
huh?

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All work and no play make Homer something something

Last year I was doing the VFW on fri.  Some parties I booked was in the Vfw on sat or sun aft. It was paid by an individual thus they were the boss as far as how KJ DJ or genre. Most of the regular singers was there and chances are the one that hired was a regular also. That is one of the reasons my gigs were never the same regs got used to different ways If you are fortunate enough to have a hall attached it is lucrative too.

Private parties expose your system to people that would normally not hear it Even if they arent bar goers they still come in to your gig for awhile.. If the bar owners and mgrs dont realize that then they are lost. Most dont mind if you bring in a known sub and I say known sub that wont dissapoint, they dont mind a KJ doing a big event.  It is building a following that helps you and your bars too. But as a business you can never leave them hanging If I was sheduled to a gig I provided good service one way or tother. So a good balance is profitable for all concerned.

Good honest business practices and public relations are more important than anything and comprise about 75% of the success of any KJ or DJ...We get tied up in the 25% too much and the 75% suffers...

I covered this issue a good while ago.    I look at it this way.

All of my bar gigs are my main bread and butter.  Any party is icing.   Sure they pay more.   But how often?   Steady gigs are the bird in hand.   Parties are the two birds in the bush.   Nice when you catch them, but how many times does it happen?

Reputation, reputation, reputation.    

You made a contract with the bar owner.   Be it verbal or written.    It says every week.   Not when you want to come, because you will get paid a few dollars more somewhere else.   Your word should be your bond.     I have never taken a party over a steady scheduled bar gig.    I don't care if the party pays $1,000 and I'm scheduled for $175.   It will never happen.    These are the idiots I talk about.    Kill your business and your reputation for a little extra cheese.    Steady, good paying gigs are getting harder to find.    Add up the income from the steady gigs you have.   You'll never make that much income from parties.    I never have and never will.    I don't care if I ever get booked for a private party.     Those happen on days off.   Want to do a Monday party?    Oh well.   Don't think the bar owner won't talk about your lousy work ethics to other owners.     Your name will be loser.  

That brings up a good point.  The guy that drove 20 miles to hire me, had some issues with the karaoke girl he had.    Blew him off 3 different times.    Now he's blowing her.   She just lost a steady income.   She was a real bargin.   Used a 1 speaker setup.     Now that's karaoke at it's finest.     He now has a new professional karaoke company that values their reputation and his business.   Both of them will end up making more money.   He's going to pay more for the new company, but they are worth it.    He will make more money, because they will be reliable.   What do you want to be?     A payday rich party doer or a rich slow and steady reliable  kinda company?

For once I have to agree COMPLETELY with the Big Dog. FINALLY we can see EYE TO EYE. In fact this post he put up has a very useful and nuetral tone to it and its very READABLE without all the usual blather. Nice to read a well thought out and constructed response.  :handshake:

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"You know that I sing the Blues and I do not suffer fools. When I'm on that silver mic, it's gonna cut ya, just like a knife"-The SWINGCAT

I agree.  I've passed over many steady weekend opportunities due to private party commitments (money/variety/family time, but that would be another subject).  I like to sub when I can and some offers have come up as a result of it.  As an independent, I think it is important to maintain good contacts with other KJs/DJs, that you know won't be out to undercut or otherwise try to take your show should a sub be needed (illness, travel, etc.).  If a commitment is given to a client/venue, they need to have first priority.

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Sounds Great! Entertainment
Bartlett, Illinois

True to a point, but there are still some flaws in his statements.
He said for him BAR GIGS are his bread and buterr, and PRIVATE PARTIES are icing on the cake.  He also said...

FLAWED.  Yes for him that may be true, but not for a lot of others.  For me personaly, last year was about even on money from bar gigs, and private parties.  This year private parties are surpassing my bar gigs by a few thousand.

ANd BIG DOG, just casue you use ONE SPEAKER does not make you un professional.  I have done that at 3 different places where ther was very  limited space for 2 speakers.  Using your theroy, then do you use 12 speakers at all of your shows?  Better yet, use 24.  OK scarcasim done.  But like I said, you can use 1 speaker, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6.  It all depends on the situation.  Treue the person that you said used one speaker may be a total looser, but don't group others in with him/her, just becasue they use one speaker.


PS BIGDOG, not picking a fight, just wanted to point out a few tings

NOW for the original post.....
I am one of THOSE peopleHas nothing to do with doing private parties, it all is dependant on how your business is runBLAH BLAH BLAH, Bar owners could give a rats a$$ about that, all they care about is the $$$$.  THe second bar sales start to plumit for whatever reason on karaoke night, you will be out on your but, or someone else will be cpomming after your gig.  Again, has nothing to do with doing private parties, just on how you run your business.  One of my competiors does about 2 private parties a year, and 1 weekly bar gig.  YEst still he is always switching around which night he does karaoke (FRI/SAT), and usualy starts 20 mins late for what ever reason.  No he is not doing private parties, he is just an idiot.Well, if you said you would be at the bar doing karaoke on sat nite, and cancel beacause of a higher paying gig, you are and idiot and deserve to get fired.  But like BIGDOG said, he would not cancle a booked $175 gig even if he was getting paid $1000, and I agree with that too.  IF you book a gig, by GOD you better do it, unless an ACT OF GOD prevents you from doing it.Again, noting to do with private parties, the person that hired the SUB is the idiot, beacsue he/she hired an idiot.YES YOU CAN

COMMENTS from me....HMMMMMMMMMMMM
Yes you can have your cake and eat it to.  The easy fix to the above problem is NOT give up one or the otehr, but to EXPAND.  DUH.  Find a good KJ, and hire them, and pay them a decent wage so they don't leave.  Then go out an do your private parties.  Now that is 2 birds in the hand.  If someone is canceling that many bar gigs to do private parties, there must bea a reason for it.  He must be in demand.  And he is an IDIOT for not expanding and finding a good sub.  

Again, it is nothing about doing reg bar gigs and private parties, is has to do all about running you business in a good way

Sometimes I wonder if we are 2 years ahead of everybody else. One of our longest runs was 3 nights/week for 5 years.  Its gone... The days of the same KJ running as many singers through and most of them singing the same songs over and over are gone. If that is still working for you then do it while it lasts. More and more people are staying at home for one reason or another. They are hiring more and more for birthday grad holidy reunions anniversarys etc. And no I am not charging wedding prices to do them.  It depends on the size of the crowd and hours. Here it is fri A few years ago there were numerous bars in town with karaoke Now Im hard pressed to figure out one that I could go to without hearing the same singers singing the same songs Ive heard them sing for 10 years . Now ther might be 2 bars doing karaoke

I really thought this could be a thread and discussion about how Kj's and DJ's are adapting to the new trends and what methods they are using. But if you want to limit your business to a few people in the same bar week after week then thats your perogative.. I am getting tired of this THIS IS THE ONLY WAY crap.....What works in your little bar wont fly in 75% of any other bar now..

[quote="Bigdog @ Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:47 am"]I covered this issue a good while ago.    I look at it this way.

All of my bar gigs are my main bread and butter.  Any party is icing.   Sure they pay more.   But how often?   Steady gigs are the bird in hand.   Parties are the two birds in the bush.   Nice when you catch them, but how many times does it happen?[quote="Bigdog @ Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:47 am"]


Well, I look at the bars in this same type of style. The bar gigs are my bread and butter. The whiskey is my peanut butter and the beer is my jelly. The good looking waitress is my new girlfriend, the place I parked is where my chauffer parked my stretch, the restroom is my very temporary room in Vegas for 3 minute intervals only, the bar stool is my deer stand to watch the whole night play out and the KJ, he's that guy that calls me out to the roar of millions when it's my time to do my show. Man, ain't life grand?  :worship:      :wave:

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Who loves ya baby?

That may be true in a more pouplated area, but from my experince, out here in the middle of nowhere, it still stands true.  True I would love to have a flow of different singers singing different songs every show.  In my area, place that have karaoke don't get a lot of different people.  The regulars are there doing their regular songs, and a couple others doing something differnet.  It is almost predictable of who is going to sing what song at any given time in most of my regular bar gigs.  It does make it fun when someone "NEW" or somehwat new, comes in and sings somehitng new.  But that is ther rareity at all of my gigs.

I do try to keep it fresh by getting the latest karaoke songs as soon as they come out, but most  people are unwilling to do anything new, unless they are singing in the shower.

We (the wife and I) in some form or another have been doing a regular Thrs/Fri nite gig for almost 6 years now.  The bar owner books us a year at a time, and probably will untill the end of time.  We have 2 other regular gigs that we got 2 years ago, and possibly 1 or 2 more comming along this year.  We do have 2 full systems, with CD and equipment backup for both.  We also have another couple that works for us if we get double booked, or we need a night off for whatever reason.  The 2 working for us, we trained by us, and do thigs OUR way.  They did their first solo show after about 20 shows of training.  To this day the wife and I sneek in the back door just to check up on them, and we ALWAYS are asking the bar owners, where they gig at, on how they are doing.  If the owner has a complaint, we fix the problem immeadtly.

3 months ago, during Wedding season, we had scheduled karaoke at bars for thrs, fri, and sat.  Also on that same fri we did a wedding gig, and on sat we also did 3 more weddings.  We made a but load of cash that week.  We adapted, change, and made the $$$$$ from doing it.  It was a lot of tear down, setup, but it all went off without a hitch due to detailed planning in advance.  OOPS the only thing I forgot was to get some new batteries for the cordless mic, but there was a conveince stor 2 block away, and that problem was sloved.

Like Karaoyker was hinting to, you need to change, adapt, grow, shrink, or do whatever to fit the situation.  If you are a professional KJ, (not a par timers), and you don't chnge, you are an idiot, becasue there is a lot of money out there to be made, and let's face it, $$$$ is why we do what we do (in most cases).

I gree with twansenne on the adapt and change perspective. There is also a certain amount of trial and error.

Demographics won't always predict what will work in the future. They are mainly to help project that. If you try something new there is a chance that it will fail or it will work but you still have to try.

As we all know it took many attempts to get the right filament for the lightbulb. This is my example of trial and error.

If you have noticed my posts lately have been speaking of gigs in the past tense and more emotional than they should be. I speak form experience and retrospection. I might not do any more gigs and fully retire. What hurts the most is if anybody came to town there is not one place I could take them to or recomend.  (I weep inside) Our shows were always a cut above all the others and we enjoyed many years of karaoke in its finest. But we could go out to the farm or somebodys basement and set up. Thats what it is has come to. What irks me  is everybody wants to argue about petty crap here and cant see the forest for the trees. There are real issues that need to be discussed in a rational mature fashion to promote that which you love.

I know most of us are part-timers and have professional day jobs, and here's how I was raised:

If you are truely a professional, then you should give your karaoke gig and bar owner the same professional consideration you give your day job. Show up on time, act ethically and professionally while there, NEVER let your other job involvments (i.e. private gigs or other shows) get in the way of your committment to your employer, etc..

You wouldn't call up your day job and tell them you can't come in today because you found a job oppertunity for the day that will pay you more than you make day to day!! They'd fire you on the spot, and your bar owner should reserve the same right if he chooses.

Good business and a professional work ethic are consistent no matter what job you have, and no matter what, the more professional employees are always going to be more successful than those who don't think it matters or value themselves over their employer (don't bite the hand that feeds!!)

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C Mc
KJ, FL

One of my downfalls is that I always consider what I am being paid and compare it to fair market value. I weigh in the fact that no campony that I work for owes me any obligation of employment and that I work for what I am being paid plus 10% toward my next raise. In the case of contract employment raise is not the correct word, then it would count toward future contracts.

This works for me now and in the past but may not continue to work in the future. Live and learn.

If I get $125 for a days work then I offer them $137.50 in work accomplished. They don't deserve more.

Wherever I am gets my top priority, including cell calls. If I am talking to someone and get a call, I will chack to see if it is an emergency, if it's not I don't take the call. I excuse myself from the conversation just long enough to check because emergencies cannot be scheduled but a return phonecall can.

Professionalism, is what everyone should strive for.   About treating your karaoke job like your real job.  Do you drink at your real job?  Why do you drink at karaoke?   Do you think the bar owners are keeping an eye on you and your drinking behavior?   Are you drunk or not?    Do you think you should drink at your gig?  Do you think it's professional?   It's not your party night, it's a real job.

Myself, I wouldn't do any job that I couldn't get at least two speakers set up.  That's just me.   Professionalism starts with how you are preceived.  To me one speaker says loser.   I'm too lazy to use two.  I'm too cheap to have two.    I always want to look at professional as possible.   I don't want to do anything that can be viewed as anything less.    My newbies that are taking her place, got two subs and two tops on speaker stands, in to the same bar, with a 6 foot long table for the mixer and machines.   The one speaker girl SUCKS.   That's why she is being replaced.

Canceling for a party was in reference to having just one system.     If you have two rigs, it's party time.     Right now the steady bar gigs are still strong and new ones are popping up daily.     So I'm riding the wave, til it crashes.  Then I'll party.

Subbing another karaoke company to do your regular gig, because you want to do a party is a breach of your contract.     I would only do it if the party was for a family member.     A wedding or an important milestone party.   Then I would explain to the owner, how important the party was to me.    Subbing a KJ that works for you on a regular basis is a different matter.     But I have bar owners that want me and only me.    I generally like to start a job with the KJ that will be working it regularly.  Then it becomes less of an issue.   But the bar owner doesn't work behind the bar 24/7.  So he should realise that every business needs to have employees, not just his.    Can I pick the most competent bartender to work on my nights?   Especially if you want to use the amount of money in the cash register, to measure how good you think I am.     I'm going to start doing this, if that is how they want to judge how much I'm worth, at the end of the night.

That brings up another matter.     The newbie I trained just started a new gig.   The bartender, that seems to be the apple of the owners eye, sucks.    She looked up and down the bar at all of the empty bottles and glasses and just kept on talking to her buds.    People complained that they couldn't get waited on for 20 minutes.  How do I know she sucks?  She was crying about only making $20 in tips, for the night.   There is nothing that says YOU SUCK as a bartender, more than making only $20 in tips, with a nice size crowd.   3 people could leave that much, if you were any good.    It's good service first, tips come after that.
Not the other way around.    I personally have had many gigs like this.   It drives customers away.

QUESTION:     When do you feel it's right to have a talk with the bar owner about deadbeat bartenders and waitress'?   Explaining that it hurts both of our incomes and reputations.

My own feeling regarding this, is ONLY if the bar owner asks you.  Bartenders, Waitresses, are HIS employee's, as entertainment we are subcontractors hired for a different reason, we too are employed by the bar owner.  My own feeling is just because we are business people, and the bar owner is a business person, doesn't mean we are his "peers".  We aren't.  My own feelings are that it's never wise to stick our nose, where somebody might not want us. We are a business that the owner hires, however we don't work for him in the same capacity as his waiting staff, and bartenders.. They are his direct subordinates, his workers on a different part of his payroll.. We are just subcontracted entertainers, we aren't hired as having authority over his employee's in most cases (at least around here). I believe we get more respect by not being intrusive, and keeping a respectable distance from HIS business matters unless it directly affects us.  Drinking prices, water drinkers, Dishonest bartenders or waitresses, We don't belong there unless obviously we become pulled into something that's clearly wrong.  As hired entertainers we should stay out've as much of his employee's stuff as possible, UNLESS asked. We are hired in a very different capacity.  I believe it's important to be careful when crossing certain lines.

My feeling is an aspect of OUR "professionalism" dictates, don't make waves with bartenders,  head waitresses, waiters, his managers, or other employees that might have more established credibility in the owners eyes, than we've established thus-far.  These things can backfire.

JMO

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I wouldn't have more than one drink while working. I usually drink coffee anyway.

I hadn't thought of that and I agree with your point.

Good point, is there any way to add a clause to a contract that would allow for this?

Yes it is not professionalism to get BUT DRUNK at a gig, but to have a few beers with the crowd, is OK, IMHO.  I usualy have from none-6 beers at a gig.  I usually have a empty bottle near by, in case a customer wants to do shots, I fake swallowing the shot, and spit it back in the beer bottle which I am prentending to use as a chaser for the shot (like they did on the movie "Coyote Ungle" (I think)).

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER!!!!  The majority of bar owners know what is going on, and will get rid of a bad bartender.  IF they don't know what is going on, they are an idiot, and probably won't listen to you if you question their bartenders ability.  I don't want to be consider a SNICH at any of the bars I work at.

On the other hand, I did have probelms with a bartnder at one of my shows.  She was always telling me how to run my show (not loud enough, too lond, person X should sing next, ect....)  I kindly told her that she doesn't need to to tell her how to run my show, since I don't tell her how to mix her drinks.  She persisted, and I told the owner.  He had a chat with her and she finaly stopped.

All in all, I work with a great buch of bar owners and bartendrers.  When every I go into the bar on an off night I usualy get most of my drinks free, and have a great time.  But on KJ nites I slow down the drinking, and still have a lot of fun too.  It is not what you actualy doo, it is what you a preceived doing.

I can be the best KJ in the world    :whistle:   as far as bringing in paying customers and keeping them there.  It's to build the bar business.   A bar bartender that can not keep up or will not keep up, hurts all of my attempts to build the crowd.  They are destroying my good efforts, with their bad behavior.    It reflects directly on me.  It hurts my reputation.  When people come up to me and specifically tell me, they won't be back because they can not get waited on, hurts my reputation and that of the bar owner.   When the big crowd you use to have starts getting smaller, the bar owner is going to think it's because of you, not his bartender.   He may start looking to replace you.    You're gone and the bad bartender still works there.   Then her bad behavior just cost you money, big time.


If you were the bar owner, would you want to know about someone that was directly hurting your income, in a negative manner?   That paying customers are leaving and won't be back, because of lack of service.   IMO only an idiot would not want to know something like that.    If one of your KJ's was hurting your business would you want to know?    I have fired KJs for being jerks and offending bar owners, by such actions and for directly harming my reputation.   I don't like incompetence and won't put up with it.

There is a difference between being a snitch and having good business sense.    Where is your dedication to the bar owner, the one who pays you week after week?   Don't you feel a sense of loyalty to him?   As one business man to another.   Workers are just workers.    I only want good ones.
 
My loyalty is for the one that pays me.    Not the workers that could and are, costing me money and reputation.   I am not responsible for jerks that don't have good work ethics and don't know what it takes to keep from being fired.   As a bartender you have one priority, to take money from people as fast as you can.

I never drink at my real job (firing offense) and I won't drink at a karaoke gig.(non professional)   My self imposed high standards, for my reputation.    

6 beers?   3 and you're legally drunk.