Karaoke Forums

I have just received my new Sennheiser e845s (wired) mic with 15' of Mogami Gold Quad XLR cable 2 days ago and had decided to test them today and found something unusual compared to my old Shure PG58 (wired), and the old and crappy real cheap Sony mic (wired).

First of all I compared the Gain-Before-Feedback for these mics by pointing each mic directly to the speaker about 2 ft away, and increase the gain knob very slowly on the mixer until feedback occurs. All EQ setting was set to neutral, with the highest volume I will ever play at home. Out of these 3 mics I found the e845s has the worst GBF compared to others. For those who own these mic do you have this problem?

Second, I start singing with these mics about 4-5 ft away and I found that it is not as "sing-able" as the other two. The PG58 requires the least gain for "sing-able" result, while the Sony crappy mic can go almost to max gain before feedback at very loud volume. The e845s only the other hand is not loud enough, and I had tried many different combination (mic gain, mic level, main level...etc) but I just can't get a loud enough output without feedback. I know the speaker placement would help but I really expect this more expensive e845s should outperform the other 2 at the same setting. Is this normal or I just get a defective mic?

Any idea?

First of all you don't point a mic at a speaker to test the feedback.  The Sennheiser mic is a 'tight' pattern mic meaning you have to sing directly into it - straight on, not off to the side & relatively close to your mouth (approx 1-3 inches).  They are saying the gain before feedback is lower because it is a tighter patter, it is picking up what is directly aimed at it and not so much around it - so in an open mic situation, it isn't picking up the signal from the speaker as much as it is the singer singing into it.  So make sure you sing into it & not off to the side of your mouth or low down from your belly  :whistle: , kidding, have seen it happen often!

The Sennheiser mic is a low impedance mic rated at 350 ohms, the PG48 is a wider pattern cardiod (wider pickup patter) medium impedance mic rated at 600 ohms & you don't mention the Sony model, but since it's cheap (as you state), it's probably a an omnidirectional (widest pickup pattern) high impedance mic.  Which is why you can get more sound out of the other 2 cheaper mics from further away.  
You have the Yamaha MG8/2FX mixer, which the Sennheiser is actually the best match for - spec wise.  Also a properly gained board will make a difference as well.  Your board snipped from the MG8 manual:  http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/pa/english/mixers/mg8_2fxe.pdf

1. Start by setting all level controls to their minimum: master faders, channel faders, and input gain controls. Also make sure that no EQ is applied (no boost or cut), and that ALL effects and dynamic processors included in the system are defeated or bypassed.
2. Apply the source signal (mic) to each channel one at a time: have singers sing, and playback devices (karaoke player) play back at the loudest expected level. Gradually turn up the input gain control while the signal is being applied to the corresponding channel until the peak indicator begins to flash, then back off a little so that the peak indicator flashes only occasionally.  Repeat for each active channel.
3. Raise your master fader(s) to their nominal levels (this will be the ¡°¨‹¡± markings on the fader scale).
4. Now, with all sources playing, you can raise the channel faders and set up an initial rough mix.

That's basically all there is to setting up the gain structure for your mixer. But do keep your eyes on the main output level meters while setting up the mix to be sure you don't light up the 'peak zone' all the time. If the main output level meters are peaking constantly you will need to lower the channel faders until the overall program falls within a good range - and this will depend on the 'dynamic range' of your program material.

Now when you get the gain structure set-up & you are getting feedback, change positions while holding the mic, aim away from the speakers.  If you are still getting feedback, then you need to turn the overall volume down.

Also when mixing the karaoke music to your voice, once you have your mix set-up, pretty much leave it alone, adjust the music to match your vocals.  You want the music 'slightly' under the vocals where neither is overpowering the other.  Too much reverb can also cause feedback as well.  You want effects to enhance not take over.  You should only have enough effects where you can't really hear them, but you would notice if they weren't there.

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Man, Lonman, you are just soo smart !! Sounds like you know your stuff when it comes to the tech things around here !  Im glad youre here !  :)

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Kelley
Star Sounds Karaoke & Mobile Recording Studio


[shadow=black][scroll]You have to respect your audience. Without them, you're essentially standing alone, singing to yourself....KD Lang[/scroll][/shadow]

Oh stop!

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Lonman, thanks for reminding. Will try that out tomorrow after come back from work. I hope the mic I bought is not the counterfeit product as I heard there were quite a few floating around the market lately. let's pray and hope that my luck was not that bad...

perhaps it was my poor technique to handle supercardiode mic... hope that is the case...

a decent mic usually is pretty loud, and usually doesn't require lots of energy to sing isn't it? so if all the mixer setting is optimized and still don't get good volume even with good mic technique then I guess something must be wrong... let's hope that's not the case. will find out very soon...

o-k ?! ! You know you love it !! No but I was serious ! Why cant you guys ever take compliments? At least I didnt say you were the best in the whole wide world !!  
Ive just read quite a few of your posts and was impressed on how much you knew about the tech stuff. I wish I knew all that . Prob would save me $ if I did.
 We just did our first party with our laptop system this weekend and I was so aggrevated b/c it didnt sound right. We had to crank the music up way high to be heard w/out feedback from the mics. I thought we wasted our $ buying this laptop w/ Hoster too. I spent all last week importing & making books for it to sound horrible ( to me anyways ) I just couldnt figure out why it wasnt sounding as good as the cdgs. I got to looking in the MTU forum archives & guess what? It was the stupidest simplest thing that was wrong, apparently although the volume on the outside of the comuter is all the way up you have to go the volume control on the right hand side of the screen ( by the time & date thing) and make sure thats turned up too.
 And all b/c of a smarter person than me I found the prob and fixed it fast !
So thats my point , just to thank you for your expertise !!  :hug: (I feel funny giving you a hug but hey ! what the heck ! )

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Kelley
Star Sounds Karaoke & Mobile Recording Studio


[shadow=black][scroll]You have to respect your audience. Without them, you're essentially standing alone, singing to yourself....KD Lang[/scroll][/shadow]

The basics of most pa's are pretty much the same from mixer to mixer, effects to effects, speakers to speakers - it just the individual features of each that make them what they are & their individual specs as well.  I do a lot of reading tech forums & try learning as much as I can.  I've been running sound about 20 years now for bands & recording studios (local small scale 16-24 track studios).  Any piece of equipment I own I try to learn what every knob, button, fader, plug does.  I often find myself asking about certain things as well - always learning something new.  I enjoy pro audio gear & enjoy trying to help people get the most out of what they own or recommending new pieces that will greatly improve on their current set-ups.  I have several friends at Guitar Center & a couple other local shops that they let me test new equipment on occasion - not so much at GC lately, their management kind of tightend up their reigns on the borrowing.

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cpmame,

I think the bottom line is that even though microphone manufacturers can put superior parts into their mics and produce mathmatically superior sonic quality, when it comes down to it, the way a microphone sounds is nothing but arbitrary personal preference.

Most sonically superior mics have a more "smooth" sound to them and tighter gain patterns, while what you are describing as missing in your estimation is really the "brightness" that is associated with more mid-grade microphones. To tell you the truth, most people at my karaoke shows that are paying attention to the mic sounds will ask me to use my Samson R21 that is usually my announcement mic INSTEAD of my Shure 58M, and that is because it is a "brighter" mic with more gain in the higher treble bands and a wider gain structure that will pick up their voice no matter how they hold the mic, while the Shure is more sonically balanced and smooth throughout all of the bands and you have to hold it correctly to get it to sound right. The $100 Shure will cover up more mistakes, sound more consistent at all volumes and throughout all singing pitches, and reject more possible feedback, BUT the $15 Samson is undenyably brighter and some people just think that sounds better!!

So, there is nothing wrong with your mic, you may just have a personal preference for brighter mics, in which case you may want to check out something in the $15-50 range as opposed to a more expensive, smoother mic!!

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C Mc
KJ, FL

I have to toaly agree with this one too.  At one of my regular gigs, I forgot to pack the Samson R21s and hand to regretably hook up the SM58s that I had with me.  People complained about the sound.  THe next nite, I switched back, and all was forgiven.

Yest the SM58 are considered a "better mic", but unless you are in a band or a professional singer, most regulary karaoke addicts will like a Samson R21 better.  Just my opion based an several years of experince.

Lonman, i readjust the gain structure based on what said on user manual for the whole evening until now... the overall "loudness" has improved. with the same speaker/mic placement (singing about 4-5 ft away, without pointing mic at the speaker) i pretty much had verified the max "loudness" each mic can goes before feedback... at this time i still found my e845s is not as good as the other... sigh...

perhaps it was my problem, i still dun quite like the e845s... like TopherM said it is not as bright as the other two mics... one thing i found exception is that this mic done quite a good job suppressing the "pop" sounds while i sing... other than that i found myself have to sing "harder" even when placing about 1-2" away from my mouth... when come closer it sound bit muddier, and go further away i can barely hear the vocal... i get tired easily since i had to sing "harder" even at optimum distance... is this typical for a supercardiod mic?

i have been trying to email Sennheiser but hasn't see any reply yet... 2 weeks ago i also email them for product information but they never reply... well i guess their tech support really sucks so i think better stick with Shure in future...

so far I am quite happy with the PG58 except the way it handles the "pop" noise. since both PG58 and SM58 are dynamic cardiod might so I expect the SM58 should be a better mic with better feedback rejection. would Shure SM58 solve my problem?

for those who own SM58, mind to share your experience? thanks

I don't understand why you are trying to sing 4-5 feet away from the mic????  1-3 inches from your mouth.  Then if it sounds muddy, you cut back on the bass & add a little high.  You should not be having this kind of an experience.  It almost sounds like you have too much bass &/or low mids on you mics to make it sound muddy, although some vocals don't work well with certain mics, this may be the case.

Can't say on the SM58, i've never had anykind of major feedback, vocals are crisp & clear on most singer & durable as hell!

Do you have a local music store close by?  You should go there & do tests with each mic & bring your PG58 in & compare the other mics to that.

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I looked up your Yamaha MG8/2FX Mixer, and here's what you need to do:

Make sure the mic is plugged into channel 1 or 2.

Set your channel level to nominal (where the little arrow thingy is).

Make sure you PAN knob is in the middle.

Make sure your effects knob is all the way off (you can add vocal effects later if you want).

Set the LOW EQ knob to 9 o'clock
Set the MID EQ and HIGH EQ knob to about 1-2 o'clock

You always want the little button by the PEAK indicator to be depressed ONLY on mic channels. This is a limiter for this channel so that the mic volume is cut before it gets loud enough to damage your speakers/amp (i.e., if someone yells as loud as they can into the mic).

All the the settings above will ALWAYS stay exactly where they are now set.

You will control the mic's output with the GAIN knob on top. For now, set it to the NOMINAL setting (the solid line at about 10 o'clock).

Adjust the ST LEVEL (your main volume) to about 9-11 o'clock (whatever sounds about right). After setting the initial ST LEVEL level, you shouldn't have to touch this knob again.

Now your mic should sound correct. If the perceived volume is a little low or high, adjust the GAIN knob on the mic channel NOT THE VOLUME. When setting up the mix, you should set the mic gain to where the LOUDEST you think you will be singing doesn't set off the PEAK light, so don't set the GAIN level by softly singing into the mic, sing like you were really singing!!

Once you have the mics at a comfortable level, add the karaoke mix:

Make sure your karaoke player is plugged into the RCA inputs of the 7/8 stereo channel.

Put the HIGH, MID, and LOW EQ knobs at about 1 o'clock.

You shouldn't ever use the effect on the karoake music channel, so leave that knob all the way down.

The BAL knob should be in the middle.

You will first adjust the karaoke volume in the mix using the LEVEL knob. Once you have found a good relationship between the karaoke music and the mic. level, you can then leave it alone and adjust the music using the 3 EQ knobs. In cases where the volume of one disc is just a ton louder or softer than another, you WILL have to adjust the LEVEL control on the karaoke channel accordingly.

That's all you have to do to mix your karaoke music with your vocals. Try that out and see what happens!!

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C Mc
KJ, FL

Oh, I think you also stated that you only run one speaker with your system. You are going to miss out on the stereo effect this way, but it won't sound bad or anything as a result. Just make sure your one speaker is hooked up through the ST OUT outputs. The mixer is set so that your mix goes through the ST bus, so if you are not hooking the speakers up to the ST OUT, you may not be getting the main mix as an output!!

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C Mc
KJ, FL

4-5 ft is the about the closest distance we will ever stand. Usually we are at least 6-7 ft away. It's within a living room anyway. I treat this as worst case scenario just for testing purpose. So once I have this setting optimize in this range then I don't have to worry about feedback when someone is singing at this distance when I am not there to remind them.

the muddy sound is relative comparison with my other mics at the same setting (12-1 o'c for treble and mid, and about 10-11 o'c for bass)... just don't feel natural sound if I lower the bass even more... turn on and crank up the reverb help a little but too much just make thing sounds artificial...

Ok, guess i'm completely missing the reasoning.  You can't test a mic at that distance.  Cheaper mics tend to pick highs easier as their pickup patterns are usually wider & will hear things differently than a tighter pickup pattern of a more quality mic, especially at that kind of distance.  A tight pickup mic is designed to be sang directly into, not at greater distances & this isn't a fair test for that kind of a mic.

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Thanks a lot TopherM...

Yes I setup everything based on guideline in the manual.
1. I used channel 1 and 2 for mic...
2. The button side the PEAK LED is always pushed on...
3. I verified the optimum gain each mic channel through the peak LED for each mic...
4. I run the mic at channels at norminal level (mic_level=3 o'c, at the little arrow), and control mic loudness through the mic_gain knob but making sure they don't exceed the peak setting that I found in (3)
5. However, my ST_level=norminal (around 3 o'c) to make my e845s mic loud, and the mic_gain=12-1 o'c.
6. Other mics is loud enough at (mic_gain=10 o'c, ST_level=nominal), or (mic_gain=12-1 o'c, ST_level=1-2 o'c).
7. The pan is always at middle
8. LOW setting is around 10 o'c, +/- 1 o'c. HIGH and MID is mostly to 1 o'c for other mics, and 12 o'c for e845s as I hear buzzz sound (feedback) coming slowly at the same level of loudness with other mics.
9. Karaoke mix is at the RCA input on 7/8 channel, with EQ usually set to neutral, sometime only set the HIGH and LOW to 1-2 o'c when the music is too plain. music_level is around 9-11 o'c when ST_level=nominal.

The overall loudness of my other mics have improved, so I assume the setting is quite acceptable. With my e845s I really don't know what to say except feeling a bit upset...

Lonman, I think had confused you... sorry about that. I mean I kept my mic 1-3 inch away from my mouth, and the 4-5 ft is the distance between the mic and my speakers. My left/right speaker is about 8-9 ft apart, and I stand in the middle. I apologise for any confusion...

What does it means by "hot" output?

hot = strong, loud

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

hey Lonman I just thought u would be amused to know that that lil gif you have of the guys in the car has just moving in exact time to R.E.M Binky the doorman
this quite took my fancy

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."