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Back to the original guy, you will do just fine with the BBE 362 for your home setup. The balancing isn't really going to come into play unless you are running long runs of wires (50 feet +), which you obviously are not in your home setup. The balancing essentially just sheilds against ground loops and other interference (magnetic, neon lights, strong radio waves, etc.) that unbalanced wires have a tendency to pick up when there are long wire feeds. I can't imagine that you have any cables over 25 feet, if that, in your home setup, so the balancing is pretty much a moot point (though it obviously can't hurt if you want to keep going in that direction).

The BBE 362 retails for $99.00 and be reasonably be found on Ebay from reputable dealers for around $65.00. The deals like Lonman was referring to are the exception, not the norm, and may require some patience and hunting.

The BBE 362 will give you all of the BBE processing in the plug and play variety where you don't have to worry about dailing in all of the extra functions. The actual sonic maximizer chip and process is the exact same in all of the BBE products no matter how fancy the other features are, so if you don't need to worry about all of the other features, just go for the 362.

As far as the feedback suppression, for your home setup you could easily eliminate feedback altogether just by setting up your speakers in the correct location!! Remember that feedback is just when your mic is picking up the signal that was produced by the mic, which in turn creates an infinate amplification loop. Essentially, you sing into the mic and the mic picks up the music and vocals from the speaker, then the mic sends that signal back to your speaker and IF your mic then "hears" the same signal it already amplified and sends it through the loop again and then hears that signal again, and so on, you get that wonderful infinate amplification buzzzzz known as feedback!! It is the same idea as when you have your video camera hooked up to a TV and videotape the TV you have the camera hooked up to and get that infinate loop of video (it just isn't as loud and annoying!!).

Most mics are designed so that they don't have a gain structure when the bottom of the mic is pointed directly at the speaker, which is the entire reason that monitor speakers are the shape that they are.

SO, to minimize or even eliminate the possibility of feedback in your home setup, either place the speakers in front of the singer so the mic doesn't pick them up at all (or in any other location where the mic won't pick them up) OR place them on the ground DIRECTLY facing the singer so that the bottom of the mics are always perpendicular (right angle) to the speaker grilles (basically pointing at them). Also instruct your singers to avoid pointing the tops of mics (Where all of the gain structure is) in the direction of your speakers. As long as the mic isn't picking up a pretty substantial amount of the sound coming from the speakers, there will be no feedback!!

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C Mc
KJ, FL

Thanks TopherM. I just tested the BBE 362 through the mic insert, as well as in series with the main output... dialed the knob around 9 o'clock for the LO, and 12 o'clock for the PROCESS using Shure PG58.

here is what I notice with this processor:
1. I don't hear a big different in either setup (insert and main output), for some reason. But when you whisper, it sounds a bit muddier with BBE turned off. When I increase the PROCESS beyond 1 o'clock I get feedback immediately.

2. For music playback the different is insignificant as well.

For these 2 reasons I returned the unit back to GC with 15% restocking fee charged (too bad). The sales specialist suggests me to get either 482i or 882i, and pointed out the 362 usually doesn't make big different. It happens that they have 882i setup for demo, and the different was like day and night! I am still wondering if I will get the same improvement if bring home either one... the manual of my Yamaha mixer points out that the main output has +4dBu, if not recommend for use with -10dBu device like the 362 and 482i. I am still wondering if that was the root cause of the problem...

If you were getting feedback, then you speakers aren't positioned correctly.  Mics are too close or aiming toward the speakers.
You had the Low Contour set at 9:00?  Why so low?  I mean it shouldn't really need to be very high, but at least 11-12:00 would yield a more significant difference at least in the low end.  The highs I wouldn't go much past 1:00 anyway in a live situation - 12:00 is actually about right.  But again, the feedback is being caused by improper gain structure on your mixer &/or improper speaker placement with mics being too close or aimed in the general direction of the speaker.

Next time you are in the store, have them test the 362 along side the 482 or 882 to see if there is a difference with the one you returned.

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Yeah, you are not going to notice much of a difference when you patch it through the mic insert because the BBE process is most significant in alligning and boosting the highs and lows, while vocal performance occurs mostly in the midrange frequencies!!

The significant difference you should hear would be in music playback, but you do need to give it a good bit more than just the 9 o'clock setting. I have found that when you are using the BBE 362 at the novice level, you really want to either defeat the band EQ or at least flatten it, and just boost with the High/Mid/Low macro knobs if your mixer has them. You may have gotten feedback because you already had certain bands boosted, then the addition of the BBE further boosted these bands, making the mic more susceptable to picking up the uber-boosted signal.

Like Lonman said and I pointed out in my earlier post, however, your components have absolutely nothing to do with feedback, it is all speaker/microphone placement and relationships. The BBE didn't cause the feedback, you did!! The crappiest mic coupled with the crappiest speakers and the crappiest components you can put together won't feedback if you put your speakers in the right place and keep the mic in the proper relationship with them!!

I personally run my BBE 362 wide open then use the macro High/High Mid/Low Mid/Low knobs to boost/cut for each individual channel accordingly. I run the mic channels with slightly boosted high/high mid/low mid and cut the low end.

I run a very LOUD show with the singer standing about 4-5 feet from my monitor speaker and only have feedback on occation when the singers are just crazy soft singers and I have to jack up the mic gain and just don't pay attention. In this case, it is easily remedied by just cutting the monitor volume accordingly so the boosted mic gain doesn't pick up the moniter signal.

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C Mc
KJ, FL

I hate that, when singers sing so low you can't cut them through the mix no matter what you do, or the ones with bad mic technique & continue to hold the mic 1-2 feet away from their mouth or better yet off to the side of their mouth.

BTW there are several BBE units right now with bids under $50 - not to mean the final bid will be.

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This GC "sales specialist" is a dumba**. The processor inside the BBE 362 is the EXACT same processor that is inside teh 482i and the 882i and any other product BBE makes for that matter. The "night and day" sound difference in the 882i demo you heard is certainly attainable from the 362, you just didn't have something configured quite right (like I said earlier, I suspect you had something boosted too high and then gave up on it too soon when you thought the processor was responcible for your feedback!!)

Also, he flat out lied to you when he said the 362 doesn't make the same difference in sonic quality as the 882i!! IT IS THE EXACT SAME SONIC PROCESSOR CHIP AND ALGORHYTHM!!

What he really meant to say was that the 362 doesn't produce as significant of a commission as the 882i!!

Too bad you took the 362 back, I could have talked you through getting it all dialed in correctly to produce that "night and day" effect!!

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C Mc
KJ, FL

That's a fact, the GC people are the worst for high pressuring, I know, several of my friends work there.

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yeah, I just got outbid on a couple of the 462s!  over 60 bucks.  oh well.  I don't need it right this second anyway.  Hell, I don't have anything to plug it into yet!   I also have a bid in on a 362SW that will probably not make it.  Do yall think it is a good idea to get the SW?  does that really matter?  I will probably be pluggin' it into a B52-1000 matrix system soon.   thanks - jim

The SW just stands for SubWoofer - basically it has an adjustable subwoofer output so one wouldn't need an external crossover to add a sub to their system.  The B-52 system already has a crossover built in so this would be a useless feature on the BBE for you (with that speaker system anyway) but the regular portion of the 362SW would still work fine.

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I have one of the older 362 with the white BASS & TREBLE tags pasted above each knob..  My standard setting is at 12:00 for both. I tailor them for room acoustics and never go above 2:00 For hiphop or if the crowd is at sro I'll bump the bass a little.

The secret to proper amount is the input level I like to see the clip lights blink every now and then. I'm probably running -3db (plus or minus 3db) as an input. Out of that goes to an Aphex 104. Noon is also the references for it also but on the exciter I run the tune about 11 and the mix at 1 or 2.. This brings the vocals out of the mud sometimes.

I do a demo where I play an old recording and show the comparison between all fx and both procs off then all back on and watch the look on their faces. It goes from tansistor radio to live performance big time...

Lonman and TopherM, thanks for your input in the first place. Perhaps I didn't test the system properly. Too bad I found this forum after returning the unit. I tried the LO knob from 9 to 12 o'clock, and decided to stay at 9 since it sounds a bit "cleaner" on the vocal part. I am not sure how much it is going to affect the MID but a few recording technicians said the "vocal" is better when used with it. But so far I still cannot conclude if that is the right statement. So far I only found the music playback sounds more "live". I haven't have enough chance to really dig deep into on the vocal part.

About the feedback problem another thing beside the speaker placement is the "gain" and EQ setting for the mic channel. So far I had to reduce the "gain" and "treble" to suppress feedback, since I haven't found a better way to position the speakers other than make them look really weird in the living room. So far I tried to lock the mic setting (especially the gain and volume) and only decrease the music volume and increase the main volume for soft singer.

Hey TopherM, since you said you had to boost up the gain and volume for soft singer which eventually lead to feedback problem. Just wondering have you tried your BBE through the mic insert because in my previous test I "remember" I still could hear them even when I whisper... but I could be wrong... if would be nice if you have the chance to verify that...

thanks alot guys. I really learn a lot from you guys.

I'm still not sure you are exactly grasping why feedback occurs. You seem to be thinking about it in much more complex terms than the actual reality, which is very very simple.

I have never run the BBE through my mic insert, but it wouldn't make any difference. My problem isn't that I am not able to HEAR the singer, my problem is that at the gain levels it takes to properly mix a very soft singer, the microphone hears too much of that singer and the background music!!

Basically, the mix ratio (mics to music to speaker placement to mic placement, etc.) is always going to be practically the same for the majority of singers that I have. I may have to slightly boost a band here or there or increase or decrease the gain on the mic but I NEVER change any volumes. The mix ratios are set so that I don't have to. And although it may sound like it, GAIN is not VOLUME.

Think of the mic as a piece of paper with a hole in it and the singer's voice as the light from a flashlight shining through that hole in that piece of paper. VOLUME would be making the light brighter. GAIN would be using the same amount of light, but making the hole bigger so that more of that light makes it to the other side. It is not getting LOUDER per se, it is just allowing more of the same volume of sound through the mic and on to the mixer (and then on down the line).

SO, back to my situation. All of my VOLUMES are set to a particular mix for the particular room I happen to work in. I never change my volumes, as the room is static and doesn't change so my mix for that room is also static and won't change. What does change is the tones and volumes of my singers, the number of people in the room absorbig the sound, the tones and volumes of my karaoke music and filler music. To adjust for these conditions, though, I don't want to change the VOLUME of my music/vocal mix, I want to change how much of it is being fed to the amp and speakers.

As the night wears on, I will gradually be pumping up my High/high-mid/low-mid/low gain knobs for my music channels to increase the DEPTH of the karaoke and filler music. There are more people to absorb the music, so I need more music, not more volume!! I want each individual person to still hear the same VOLUME, but since there are more people I essentially need more music "units." If more people on the other side of the hole in the piece of paper need to see the light coming from the other side, you don't need a brighter light, you need a bigger hole in the paper!!

SO, my stage is set up so that the singer stands about 4-5 feet from my lyric monitor and my vocal monitor is situated right under the lyric monitor. At this 4-5 feet, I know that I can slightly increase or decrease the GAIN on the mic to allow the vocals to be slightly more prevalent in the mix than the music. I basically want it to stand out slightly without overshadowing the music completely. I already have my VOLUME mix set so that there is no chance of feedback (unless someone points the mic right at the speaker, there is nothing anyone can do about that).

BUT, when there is a singer who is SOOOO soft that they require more than a minor tweek in order to be properly mixed in with the music to where they just slightly stand out, then they are throwing my whole mix out of wack. In this case I have two options - start f'n around with my volume mix and make it much lower, but then I have to then rearrange my entire mix AGAIN once the next singer comes up OR stick with my same overall mix and just pump up the mic gain to a level that my monitor/mic relationship can't handle.

Option 2 will produce feedback if that were the only condition involved because I would be opening that hole in the paper to the point that the hole would be bigger than the actual beam of light itself, so light from the OTHER side would be able to cross back over in the opposite direction!! And you want EVERYTHING flowing in the same direction, from the mic to the mixer to the amps to the speakers then dissepating into the room. You DON'T want sound that was amplified by the mic gong backwards in the chain BACK to the mic, because the mic is then going to try to push it BACK in the natural direction, but it will then inevitably bounce BACK again through our "open hole" and the sound is trapped in this loop bouncing back and forth through our chain without being able to dissepate!! That is the infinate sound loop that is affectionately known as FEEDBACK!!

What i do to supress this feedback is just artificially change the relationship between my monitor and my mic by independently decreasing the VOLUME of my monitor. The singer won't be able to hear themselves through my monitor speaker, but the main mix that is going out to the rest of the crowd maintains the perfect relationship.

The monitor speaker is the light on the OTHER side of the hole in the paper (remember the orginal light is the singer's voice volume). Since my GAIN hole is now larger than the singer's beam of light (VOLUME), and I don't want any of the light (VOLUME) from the monitor to pass back in the opposite direction of the natural flow, I simply turn down that particular volume to the point that the particular "light" from my monitor is insignificant in the overall mix.

So, it isn't a matter of not being able to HEAR my singer, it is a matter of maintaining the proper mix relationships.

Hope that helps you understand feedback a bit better!!

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C Mc
KJ, FL

I think a simpler term on feedback, is not so much signal running in the wrong or bouncing back.  Basically what feedback is, is the mic hearing a signal IT produced & it gets amplified through the mixer & amps.  Feedback occurs when the mic hears the amplified signal of what it produced, then reproduces it again going through the mixer & amp thus making it even louder again, it repeats this again & again, as the feedback noise gets louder & louder until something in the chain is broke - ie moving mic, or turning channel volume down.

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Any oscillation or reverberation will die out in few cycles as each loses energy. However if a portion of the out is fed back to the input in phase (positive feedback) it provides the energy to sustain the oscillations. This is true in a single amp or in an audio system.. The criticl components are the phase of the feedback, frequency (timing) and amount large enough to sustain.

Thanks for the detail explaination. I really learn a lot.

I heard a few terms but not quite sure what it really means so hope you guys can teach me more...

What does it mean by "smooth" sound? flat frequency response across the entire vocal frequency range?

Beside, I heard someone said X mic is not as fuller sound as Y mic. What does it mean but fuller sound in this context?


Thanks

These are questions that I would have to do review on things I havnt thought about for awhile. All freq's contain harmonics which are multiples (2x) (3x) etc)of the base freq although not as strong.  Aso when 2 different freqs are combined there is an addition and subtraction of the 2 which is added.. Full or rich sound retains all the harmonics without distortion. This takes amps with better than average bandwidths and multiple stages.

Here is a link on x y mic tecniques that might help here This is a science in itself which I dont know too much about

Flat frequency response is essentially a term to explain how a speaker responds throughout the requencies.  A flatter response basically means that all frequencies are pretty reporduced at the same level - no large dips, humps or spikes in the frequency spectrum so if you were looking at it as say on a graph, it would essentially be a flat line for the most part.  There will always be these spikes, dips, etc, but some speakers will be better than other.  

Smooth & fuller sound is all an inerpretation on the ear of the holder.  Smooth sound to me means there are no sharp sounds or piercing highs, or muddy lows, everything (frequency wise) blends together to reproduce a more natural sound.  SO if mic x didn't sound as full as mic y, it's probably because of the mics overall frequency response, mic x was is representing all of the frequencies more accurately than mic y..

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 LMAO [/quote]Beside, I heard someone said X mic is not as fuller sound as Y mic. What does it mean but fuller sound in this context?

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wrong post

Lonman the 422A that you have features unbalance input/output so just wondering where did you insert this unit in your system? thanks