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"for the last note"


 That's interesting Michael,  I can hear my father now..

"Steve, it's your fear of success"

Wouldn't that be a psychological phenom ?

Michael,  do you know of any examples of that in any submissions we can reference ?

(you see, this is IDEALLY what I hope for,  Singer's helping Singer's) without feeling the need for fluffing, and candy coating areas.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Interesting discussion folks.............I honestly think that a good vibrato is something you are just born with. Maybe it has something to do with the shape of your throat, like some guys have a large adam's apple while others don't.  I can pretty much identify when someone is trying to add vibrato, as opposed to when someone was just meant to have it.

My vibrato literally just happens, I can't explain it, but the "spinning top" theory really does make sense. The toughest part I think, is keeping the intervals at a steady pace, someone who is trying to "learn" vibrato would obviously have a tough time with this I think.

Chris had said something about seeing people moving their heads and what not, to try and achieve this effect.....I don't see how that could help much, but a true vibrato will sometimes make your bottom lip quiver a little bit, though I think some famous singers exaggerate it to a certain degree.

Very interesting thread, not much pulls me in here.....

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Satisfaction is the death of desire

Oh boy I have an almost embarassing example of that Steve!  It's the final note on a recent submission of "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes" and to extricate myself somewhat, that note was WAY up there for me.  I tensed up going for it and it sounds awful!! Of course after this was posted I worked on that note and the bars leading up to it and it sounded to my liking . Interestingly, and related to the psychology fear of "making a mistake" in front of people or on a recorded medium, while I was recording this "practice session", I didn't feel any tension when working my way up, and probably because what I was doing was just practice and not meant as "entertainment" I was able to relax considerably.  What is crazy is I new this was the reason I screwed up that note when I recorded the @(#*&@( thing in the first place. I still do what I consider my best singing jobs in the shower--no kidding.

Hey Nathan,  great to see you again,  you've been missed.  We'd like to get a discussion group going, where the more serious musicians can exchange feedback, ask for opinions, and exchange dialogue "fluff free", without fear of reprisal. Yet rather than just a leave feedback and rank scenerio, have a back and forth discussion... Just a place where a person can come, and say, "Hey, I just submitted something in SS, can you folks give it a listen, and collectively give me some opinions"?... I thought of this because as a life-long musician, when a few of the more serious, aspiring pro singer's ask me for an opinion, sometimes I just don't feel qualified to give opinions, or a critique..  Often-times, I question how a trained vocalist, or vocal coach would critique such a person, if at all in some cases... I'm not familiar with area's of diction when it comes to lyric content, and musically, I'm often not confident that what I hear in certain individuals compositions, that *I* feel might stand for some tweaking, is really an accurate constructive area,  or my own subjective bias, perhaps rigidity...

It does seem that some people have the knack for picking up not only the auditory area's of music but technique as well alot more naturally than others.  In a sense it almost seems for some to be a nuance (more of a natural ability) while other's can still learn the technique... Perhaps not unlike ball sports, you have some that are just natural when it come to certain types of hand eye coordination, and depth perception related activities, the ball toss in tennis which is pretty dang hard for me, other just do, without agonizing over the process... Those that seem more naturally athletic just seem to be good at baseball, basketball, tennis, and even something as intricate as golf, usually not just one ball sport, but quite a few... While other's study for years, only to get more and more frustrated and golf is tough for them, others go out there, never take lesson's, and grasp not just basic technique, but a game of paradoxes... Some kids learn to sing, and as Nathan stated, without even realizing it, they mimic a vibrato that they hear someone sing with, but HOW ?  It's not a naturally easy process, although it might be a natural process.  How do they know what they are doing ?  How do they know naturally to work the diaphragm muscles in such a manner.. To me that never came naturally..  Some of it almost appear to me, to be working certain involuntary muscles, and some have a very fast vibrato. A technique much faster and controlled than I'm able to even comprehend achieving using my undeveloped stomach or diaphragm area...  Also how difficult is it to tweak your vibrato once you have it ?  That must be a VERY difficult process. IS it a process that set's in comparable to other area's of muscle memory ?  I don't know.. What I do know, is singing doesn't come naturally to me.  

Although it's somewhat funny pondering quivering facial muscles, shaking throat, or hooking up to a belt massager to learn vibrato technique... Does holding your hand on your diaphragm area, and perhaps lightly pushing during the process make more sense ?  Or feeling the reaction as you try to develope the vibrato technique, pushing the area as a means of reference as to what muscles you are working in a way you are unaccustomed to ? IS this a process you can develop by pushing the stomach to get a feel of it ?  or does that end up counterproductive ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Michael, I've heard opera singer's must be amazing athletes, at least in terms of their physical conditioning.  The opera singer put's their body thru quite an arduous process... The whole sinus cavity, and cranium I've heard becomes a resonating chamber, and I guess they feel ALOT more than part of their nose vibrating.... These people must be in tip top conditioning... I think that's why many of Pavoratti's fans were petrified that the once athletic soccer playing, was killing himself towards the end, by letting his physical condition go....yet still putting his body thru such a grueling process.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Might as well also make this the,

Musicians and serious singer's chatter area, and in addition the;


"Yes,  I actually know what the word 'Critique' means'. I take music quite seriously, and I don't want or expect flower's thrown at me assuming you do hear how I can improve my singing, or even my rendition of my submitted work in the Singer's Showcase. I'd like a few collective opinions, or ideas (and will ask for you opinions on specific songs I wish for you to listen to)"

"In turn, I ask that you never use such a venue for camouflaged bashing, but just address the song itself, and how you feel I can improve the job I submitted. What I do expect is that your response to my submitted work is somewhat tactfully presented with only one goal in mind,  and that's to help me become a better vocalist.  I also understand that all feeling's expressed here are the opinions solely of those offering an opinion on my submitted song. If you feel that your strong dislike for me interfere's with your chances of objectively listening to my composition, and similarly, if you feel I was a "10"..UNLESS you are willing to take some time to help me understand why in your opinion I couldn't improve my composition, I don't want to hear how great I am in here. If you can't be honest, and offer some CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, please don't comment in here, I also recognise that if I feel a need to preface my request for criticism with  'you should be gentle with your presentation', this is not a thread I should be asking for feedback in.  

Those of us that are willing to offer what we believe to be constructive criticism, also agree that those that do NOT agree with us, or just wish to add to what we've stated are free to do-so in this thread without fear of reprisal.  We all agree in turn, NOT to take other's opinions, greater knowledge, possible inability to express themselves totally PC in typed venue, or any disagreement with our opinions as a personal affront !

"Collectively, I'd like the advice or just opinions of other musicians in the Singer's Showcase, as to how I can improve the particular song I've asked those in here to listen to and comment on... There will be no ranking, because rank or grade really doesn't help me with specific's I wish for, it's often an easy way out, it has nothing to do with Critique."

The purpose of this thread is for those who wish to openly offer HONEST constructive
feedback, and have some knowledge of how to do-so in a non-threatening manner, to help others that want to IMPROVE as singers... There is no other objective !

Also any technical area's of music, music theory, or just issues regarding singing or backing are more than welcome here.

(all are free to also amend this as long is the general idea is understood, the goal is for the more serious musicians to have a place to chat too, and not stray from this subject matter)


Let's make this thread, an example of how we'd like Singer's Showcase to actually be, assuming we are frustrated with what's going on over there. This isn't an ongoing discussion of :Critique:, it's a place to receive some advice and honesty.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Very cogent Mr. K, especially since one of SS's all-time favorite "critics" is back in the house after a month long hiatus!

I have another question to put forth and that is: How many of you have been singing since a child? By this I don't mean singing "Happy Birthday" at your 3rd grade friend's birthday or the occasional Christmas carol.  As a child were you involved in a lot of school/extracurricular singing activities? Were you often picked from the class to sing solos for special musical functions, etc.

Were you told or was it inferred as a child that you sang very well for your age?

I'm not looking for responses from people who has children participated in contests, as sometimes there is a "push" from the parent(s) behind this and is not always an indicator of actual talent.

Thanks!  MJK

Im' in.

I really do respect the way the spport is handed out in the singer's showcase. I think a lot of people need to understand that they have a way to express themselves artistically even though some may not like it. Singers who have only begun or evevn not yet begun to sing should be encouraged to come out of their shells.

This is not the thread for them though. I hope we can be more serious here and stick to the topic of this thread. If I feel the need to be silly, I will go to another thread to do so.

I would like to help people who wish to work on their art in any way I can. I am trying to perfect mine as well.

I only have two songs in the singers showcase. If anyone wants to tell me how they sound, be my guest. It will not hurt me, I will not be offended.

If there are any questions asked of me that are out of my relm I will defer to the person who is better equipped to help.

Chuck

I was in choir nearly all of my life. Loved it, even in bootcamp. As a child I got roles in plays by auditioning as a singer. These were the places I learned the rules that I would later break, intentionally, as a rock singer.

My mom used to sing with me as a child. She would hold a note and I would hit the same note and together we would hear our combined resonance. If I wavered the slightest bit, we would be able to tell. When I held the note true the combined resonance could be felt in our heads and chests. I got used to my head vibrating, though at first it made me dizzy.

As a teen, singing was the one way to keep me from blowing my top. If I went too long without singing I would break things, even in my sleep.

I should add that my name in singers forum is Aspires to Mediocrity.

Chuck:  Change that name! I have heard you sing, as you know, and "Aspires to Mediocrity" is not the monicker you should be running around with.  Let's change it to "Aspiring to Greatness" because that's what we all want for ourselves. You are far better than I sense you think--I'm not saying this on SS so you can trust me here!  Michael

Thanks Michael. ATM actually helps me keep from being too serious. I used to take my singing too seriously. I got even better when I loosened up. I also got over being afraid to fail mostly.

I wish to say something about Forget Domani. Let me know how you want to hear it.

Chuck

Michael,  I can't remember a time that I didn't sing *even if just in the privacy of a room alone*,  but it wasn't until I heard my voice on tape, that I really started to loath my voice,  vocal timbre, and so many aspects of MY voice, not just singing voice, but my talking voice as well..  I just didn't sound like those I aspired to sing like, or sound like.  The very fact that I couldn't tell this while singing for the longest time caused me to question my ear, and actually this became a source of anguish, and I became even tougher on myself.  I felt as though, If while I'm singing, in my mind/to me own ear (assuming there is much of a difference in what we can or can not hear regarding our own vocal characteristics for whatever reason this may be) I can't have an accurate ear.  It really wasn't until this site, about a year ago, that I learned WE CAN'T physiologically hear our voices as others hear them, or perceive them.. I suppose this is still sinking in.. Russ had a suggestion regarding cardboard in front of my ear, to baffle some of the sound, and get a my accurate representation as to how other's might hear me while I sing,  yet for some reason, that didn't work for me..

For this reason alone,  I don't feel that singing is something I can achieve without alot of help.. To me, this is along the lines of,  if I can't accurately hear what I am producing, how can I improve ?  I have no foundation to begin with..  Again, the analogy to musical instruments.. They are just easier to hear while playing them.. The voice is so different in this respect...


Chuck, You brought up a good point.  Singer's Showcase does serve a purpose for most.  I suppose if this was not the case,  it wouldn't be the way it is.. Some are getting needs satiated..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Sock it to me Chuck!

Cool, let me start by saying the good first. It sounds really good. I plugged the laptop into my stereo to hear it better. The effects are working really well. The style gave me the feeling that You were in the Ratpack. The personality was coming accross too, I felt like you were a friend telling me a story instead of a voice in the stereo.

Here it is. Some of these things may have been intentional, I just want to point out that I considered this. There may be still a little too much echo, the kind of echo used was perfect though. The two spots where you reached down lower than the rest of the song were a little uneasy. My wife and I both thought the same thing about that. Vocals might need to be brought down a touch in general, but maybe that was the sound you were going for.

Overall, it worked. We loved it. It was a great way to start dinner, a little like being at Olive Garden.

For a rough shot, I'd say you did exceedingly well.

Thanks for the advice Chuck.  I think the spot you are referring to at the low end of the scale was near the beginning of this deal, so you were on target. I was just mentioning to Steven the other night how hard it is for me to "dip" to a lower note from a higher range suddenly like that (in fact I'm working on something right now that has one of those things and I'm going insane!).  Good critique that I can work with! Thanks, Michael

I did that and woke up with a sore throat this morning!!! Thanks a lot, Michael!!!  LOL

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No extra charge Luly!.  Chuck was right the other day about the vibrato...I still always associate with my throat, but I was practicing in the mirror when I realized no, it's down a bit further than the throat, just below actually.

Here's one you guys can give me feedback on.  Last submission, "It's All in the Game" (yes I know, it's done every three days on SS!).  Not my favorite job, voice was a bit uncooperative today but relating to a situation I've talked about earlier, my dilemma right now is "dipping" from one note to a lower one and getting enough force behind the lower note.  Practing the song, I came to a point like this where I went from "all in the--GAME" (lower note) and @($*&@ I must have gone over that 46 times before I think I got the idea--which is on the recording. If you have a moment to listen, let me know if it sounds "ok" to you--even "ok" is fine with me, thank you.  

Now that I think about it, I remember discussing this with my teacher quite a while back now.  Its not the process of going "down" that is hard, it's the vowel sound of the word that is hard for me on that lower note (long E's and A's--I've figured it out).  Maybe it's because I'm from New Jersey, but this is something I will work on like crazy--it's been driving me nuts!

Michael, Does your instructor have you do any interval ear training technique as part of a routine ?  Such as major and minor 2nd's,  3rd's, Pefect 4th's, 5th's etc ?
also your cadences... Such as the Plagal cadence *common Amen cadence found in so many standard blues-type tunes* or the subdominant followed by the tonic lV-1,  or the perfect cadence, (or full close) such as the dominant followed by the tonic  V-I..  I'm just wondering if for starters working on your diatonic closes, or perfect and imperfect cadences would boost your confidence... You'd do it as ear training.... without the piano..  *Naturally ask your instructor if this would be at all helpful,  I'm just guessing, and basically discussing ear training, which I always believed to be a VERY necessary tool for all musicians*

I know when I was doing ear training,  although I didn't actually sing... I still had to sing the cadences; To do so forte,  with faster percussive attacking the notes as you build your ear, develops accuracy, this helps familiarize you (before you even sing the note) giving you a mental image of what will be next, and it certainly would help boost confidence when applied in the context of the composition I would venture to guess.  Sort've like :getting something into muscle memory:...  If your insecure area is the close of songs, working your cadences by ear I'd think could strengthen this aspect somewhat..
Try it with, and then w/o a keyboard,  I used to carry a pitchpipe in my pocket at all times... Eventually in hopes of fine-tuning and recognizing all intervals A capella.

It was one of those area's along with two 8 scales, fingering technique, Hanon, and Bach counterpoint stuffthat I never looked forward to, but I had to do it anyway

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Glad I could understand that Steve (yes I did)....the instructor I have now is an intermediate level one, which made sense for me to start with  (with her background, she certainly could be teaching advanced, but chooses not to).  I started with her partly out of economic cosideration--let's just say the person ho controls the pursestrings in the household wanted to start me off with a less expensive teacher, so I started with the intermediate level. I think he's seen how serious I am about this so it should be a "go" when I want to go advanced. My teacher and I already discussed my possibly moving to one who does advanced teaching very shortly and your suggestion is where those types of exercises will probably come in.  I'd like to stay with this lady for a few more months however until I feel more grounded with the basics.  Fortunately this location I go to is a music school so my next instructor (with the proviso I like this person enough to continue with him) is just across the hall.  I'm looking forward to working with this guy, because while the teacher I have now is very good and very demonstrative, I think working with a male singer alone might have its benefits as a male singing student.