Karaoke Forums

A few of you are turning out what sounds to me to be professional level "rat pack" and big band type compositions in here.  Some of your efforts exceed my own ability to make suggestions much of the time, a few are pro-ability vocalists, and of course musicians..  Those of you that are taking lesson's, and offering feedback to one-another, I'd be fascinated to be included in a "round-table" type interaction between a few of you that cover the same genre's, just as a spectator, perhaps some of you scrutinize your work to yourself, know what should be listened for in hopes of fine-tuning something most of us don't think of paying attention too,  or perhaps in some cases, your work IS as good as the composition can, and should be performed, hence, it should be left alone..Maybe you PM with a few, or play these performances for your instructors..I'm curious how work is viewed at the professional level, what instructors look for, what becomes important in terms of "polishing" a composition.. and what intricate areas you listen for at the "8-9" level performance of your standards, jazz tunes, etc..  I'd like to know what to listen for...A few of you that are better musicians can help me in this area. What in your mind might've made your excellent performance a perfect performance ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I'd say for me anyway (and as myself as a listener to others) if there is a moment or two (or better, more!) where you say to yourself, "How did they do THAT?", if I can create something similar I'm happy as a clam.  What makes a "polished" job in my view is when it seems effortless to the listener; you know darn well there is a whole lot going on yet it sounds so simple.  This is what I strive to achieve as a singer, that seeming ease. Right now what I am working on is advice given by my teacher to learn to "lighten" my delivery of certain lyrics in the song, to not be so deliberately focused on all of them (i.e., to almost "throw away" or "throw out" a word if it achieves the necessary effect).  This again goes against the novice's inner view of what singing is because I want to make sure every word is "sung" with some degree of style and emphasis.  The idea here is again, to make the singing sound effortless and easy--and this is a part of singing a song that should be literally "easy", but it goes against the student's preconception that all the notes in a song should have "something behind them", which is not always necessary for an even better sound or effect.  Hope my gibberish made sense!

Hey Michael,  Great,  You've finally made it over to the "OTHER" place... This actually used to be quite an active area of KS,  but as with so many things, a few of us started getting lazy, forgetting why we came here to begin with, and ended up blabbing over in the general discussion room.  I need to get my butt back into the Showcase, as well as here,  I didn't leave America Online chat venues, to spend all my time blabbing in other general chat venues,  but old habit's die hard....


Anyway, I'd like to see Singer's Forum pickup again..

It's interesting that you mentioned delivery of lyrical content.  Is that considered "diction" which might in a singing sense be a type of "dynamic" ? Or do the instructor's just consider it essentially what it is ? "pronunciation" ? It's interesting because as an accompanist, I always tend to pay attention to musical flow, and put very little emphasis on lyric delivery, It's almost as though it's a different area of music, and believe it or not, I seldom hear the lyric's or put them together to form a story, I like melodic flow, that's my interest in music, of course there are exceptions such as the old ballad story tellers, I couldn't help but pay attention to messages of Jame's Taylor, and Harry Chapin.  I used to work with a very good vocalist, but what I couldn't stand was the drama type "lisp" he'd put on the "s" deliberately during show tunes and the like,, he thought he was Sean Connery or something... I just found it contrived, and very annoying.  Certainly no enhancement... As someone who isn't a singer, I just hone in on basic geometric flow of the composition, time signature, and melodic flow, and follow along..

So assuming an instructor's critique leans heavily on lyric delivery, it's no wonder I don't hear that... I never learned to pay attention to that area of music...Just the more abstract area...

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Good point about whether this "throwing it away" delivery has more to do with lyrical versus musical content.  I from my instructor's viewpoint, it is most definitely to add to the lyric's content more so than the musical aspect. I'm going to work on something here next week and plan to use a few examples of what she is talking about and will buzz you when I've submitted it. Let me know what you think.

You mentioned something very interesting as an accompaniest and this is relative to my mention of being told "to lighten up" my delivery (incidentally, this almost always applies to soft ballads in my case) is that like yourself, I spent a number of years as a pianist with singing just on the side (I did piano bars for quite a while, but in those days never really concentrated much on my voice) so in my mind, I still tend to concentrate on the "musical" content of the song but I'm learning quickly about this whole business of "the words" and what they mean.

This thread looks like its going to develope into something worth saving as a reference. Hope more of the good singers from SS take part.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Jian,  An example is over in Singer's Showcase I offered my opinion on the type reverb Billy (a fabulous singer) is using, nothing at all meant as anything negative, if anything it was a compliment.  I felt Billy's voice is far too good for his FX used while recording... However, I would be open to cross-fire and disagreement if my opinion isn't agreed with,  in fact I'd want it...My ear isn't objective, it CAN'T be. I don't or can not hear things with total objectivity because there's an element of psychology, and conditioning involved in how we perceive an aesthetic area. The purpose of a discussion area would be to take a more in depth approach to singing. Something beyond "That was awesum dood"... That helps nobody in actuality assuming they want other's honest opinions.


While Karaoke scene is designed for the "fun singer", the fact is there ARE aspiring pro's in here, and very serious musicians.. Why not have something for them as well ?  I always felt the ranking and critique system over in Singer's Showcase should solely be based on what a person expects of themselves... Based on "just for fun", or  "aspiring pro singer"... Nothing else matters.. It's all for the individual..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

You know what would be nice too? If we could solicit critiques on here from people whose judgement we pretty much respect (i.e., will be honest for one thing!) or consider our betters or peers (i.e., people we've heard so know where they are coming from rather than some nameless entity from the great beyond with no verifiable credentials to make us comfortable with their assessments).  I just slapped a Bobby Darin number up there earlier this morning that to be honest, I think is pretty damned good! There is one spot I wonder I'm questioning in the recording...for me to hear from a learned person if they caught it or not (it's a matter of delivery not so much as accuracy) or if it's just me being too easy or too hard on myself...that would be nice! I did not copy note for note or emulated the phrasing on Darin's amazing recording (and I've been guilty of this at times with Sinatra although learning to do things "My Way") but rather took the outline of how he did it so I can't go by his version since this came out as me if that makes sense.

I always enjoyed singing, even as a kid. Played bass in a band at college, a little back up singing and had fun. After that did just a little pro singing (backup singing and bass) for a two man act in NY. After that singing was strictly for pleasure but it wasn't until I tried to sing lead to some songs I wrote that I notice there was a problem. Why couldn't I hit those highs or lows like the REAL professionals. So I took some lessons. (A learn to sing CD by a pro). I found the emphasis he placed was on the the vowels. How to sing a high note in head voice (NOT falsetto) was my goal and it helped a lot. It didn't emphasize consonants at all, just a mention that diction is important. The main idea was to remember that singing is exactly the same as speaking, only in pitch. The exercises ranged from simple scales to more guttural sounds and later on breath control. Michael touched on that. Each note must have the proper support from the diaphragm, high/low, soft/loud, doesn't matter. Each sound must have it's own support or it will get lost. The lessons greatly helped my range and sing highs and lows with some ease. I found there wasn't one trick but rather a medley of techniques that together makes the whole. I'll never stop trying to improve and I'm patient. I know it takes years to master all the aspects of the "professional" singer and I practice every day. As Michael also mentioned, making it sound easy is very hard. But then that produces the ultimate enjoyment.

Even this I never realized.  Interesting.  Chuck brought up an area when I mentioned the vocal's I enjoy are Boston, Scorpion type rock vocals,  I was never familiar with "throat voice".... and how it differ's from head voice... Wouldn't that need to be driven still by the gut ? otherwise a person would tend to get winded, and dizzy because the process would leave them short-winded ?  Or is it a softer process ?  I never understood how the throat is used to shape timbre differently than head voice, or chest voice...

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Hey Michael, I found the thread.  :wave: Steven, this is a good idea for those that really want to improve and help others at the same time.

I just did a jazz song, "You're Getting To Be A Habit With Me", as you know, Michael.  I wanted to sound like a "cool cat" that's what I think of when I hear jazz...so I kinda kept my words light and free flowing and tried to sound sexy, hehe.  Sorry, I don't know how to tell you in better terms what I did with my diaphragm or any of that.  I'm really a dodo when it comes to that cuz I've never had any singing lessons.  All I can tell you is what sounds "right" to me.  

And yeah Steven...I never understood the difference between head and chest voice either.

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You know Steve, you almost need to be trained in physiology to figure the whole mess out with what does what and where and why! Something I remembered from my first session was my just doing my shtick for the teacher and she stopped me and told me I just saved myself about an entire year of training because I already could perform the rudiments of proper singing.  How did she know?  She explained to me that if one can produce a decent vibrato, they are singing properly!  There are many physiological/mental projection interactions all involved with each other to produce a vibrato...if you feel a tingling around your nose, mouth or facial "mask" when you sing even without a vibrato going, you are doing something right.  I thought this was extremely interesting, plus I saved me a fortune in more lessons!

Here's a little tip she gave me about vibratos: when producing a vibrato, don't project an image in your mind of it being the quavering thing, but rather, like a spinning top.  Picture the top spinning fast for a really tight vibrato, spinning more slowly for a looser one.  It really works! (Steve, this is one of the "quick tips" this woman is good at giving out that I mentioned to you earlier).

That's very interesting....having been know as the "Queen of Vibrato"..... ... yeah, there's a story behind that, but we won't go there. hehe Now, if I could make that top stop spinning so much some times....

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I've always wondered when producing a vibrato if it comes easier to a man because of the adam's apple, but then again, I seem to recall women have one too, just not as large? I'm such a dough head.  Luly, put a one of those dental things with the mirror on it down your throat there and let me know , huh?

Well we're lucky in that respect Michael, because CCindy is a speech pathologist, and know's about this area too... We've even discussed phenomenon such as speech impediment's such as stuttering not being present during singing, why in some there's a natural tendency to dislike their own voice...etc.  How to hear yourself as other's hear you, and not as you hear yourself.. We have discussed these types of things...  I even started a thread about singing injuries, warmups, how to protect your voice, nodes vs polyp's, etc..  Important stuff to know..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Michael,  Why is it that for some, a decent vibrato seems to come so naturally, even without training ?  I recall 30 years ago wanting to sing, and being told vibrato is done from the diaphragm,  or is it almost an autonomic type reflex ?  This area confuses me. If I think of a spinning top, to me that appears to be a very fast quivering tendency, as opposed to the vibrato. Where should the vibrato generate from ?

One other question, prior to singing at all, how important is correct breathing ?  ability to be able to breath deep, as opposed to an often shallow breathing a person experiences from asthma, tension, etc ?  When compared to playing a brass, or woodwind instrument, would you think singing needs more or less breath control ?  (for those of you that have played the wind instruments)... Is it logical a person that get's dizzy learning the flute with an improper embuchure, wouldn't be able to sing unless they learn how to correctly breath and phrase first ?  Also important would be posture ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Well about the breathing...I don't know! Thus far have not been given much learning about breath control in relation to what Steve is talking about here (passing out, etc.). I would think expert breath control of that type is probably more vital to opera, but this is an area I've yet to learn.  Good question.  I normally just run over a song a few times to figure where I just know I'm going to run out of breath or where I need more "oomph" to hit a more solid low note.  The breathing aspects of singing I have a lot to learn more about.

About that vibrato. Geez, with me anyway, I don't recall how it came but in my manic desire to sing like Frank, Dean, and all those folks, I recognized early on listening to these guys that a good vibrato is what set them apart from the singers I didn't care for--it was their hallmark, what made them sound like they did--polished.  It's too far back to remember I just kept at it until one day I got it! It might have taken me years, months, weeks, just don't remember.  Now the one thing I will NEVER figure out is how you make that loud, piercing whistle by pulling at the corners of your mouth with both fingers--or should I be looking at a taxi cab when I practice this?

Michael,  I can hear a part on an instrument and replicate it,  but if I hear a "vibrato" I like,  my ear does nothing to help me to duplicate that.. I suppose that's why I was wondering how much of vibrato is learned, and how much is nuance.  Our voice is really unlike ANY other musical instrument.  A discussion I was having (I think with SUzanne) made me relieved (or was it Shotgun CC) that a musician having a difficult time learning to sing, isn't a reflection on musicianship.. Using our voice is VERY different than learning an instrument.  *At least this is how I understood what I was told to mean*

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Vibrato comes directly from the diaphram. As I sing verbrato I notice the sound is produced by pushing on the diaphragm in spurts to produce the effect. Control from the diaphram enables me to change the duration and strengh of the virbrato simply by pushing out a little more air. It's a very subtle thing, not to be over done. I see some folks at karaoke attempting virbrato by moving their head and trying to produce it from the throat. That's not correct and they almost never do it right. There should be no neck, tong or head muscles involved at any time when singing. The only muscle needed is the vocal chords. In fact, my coaching CD says there should be and MUST NOT BE any neck muscles used ever in singing. To do so negates the proper technique and can cause damage. OK, now I'm dizzy!!! Ha ha ha ha.

Thank you Chris.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Man that Chris knows his stuff! I'd probably not be a good candidate on the vibrato discussion here--it's just something I "do" but don't know how I learned it.  What does please me at times is when I'm singing, I instinctively know where to place it and just how much, but you know what screws me up nearly every time when a vibrato is needed for the last note (and my preference is to end everything like that unless it is for deliberate effect) is I just freeze up!

My throat tightens (see Chris's remarks re: throat) and it can get pretty squeaky or just plain messed up.  Oddly, this happens only when recording or (of course) when in the studio with my teacher.  It's a variation of stage fright! You know that last note is the last thing anyone will hear and BLINK! I just get a bit tense. It is getting better now that I am more cognizant of it and put an image in my head that it's NOT the last note...these little mental exercises work wonders.  

Any other advice on tackling that one is appreciated!  

Michael "Musclethroat" Klein