Karaoke Forums

I would be astonished if no one had read this yet, but I didn't see it posted so....

N.Y. bar finds itself in court over karaoke

07/26/2006 8:30 AM, AP

Karaoke night sounded a sour note for a Syracuse bar that is being sued in federal court for using unlicensed songs. "This is unbelievable to me," said Mark Bullis, one of the owners of the Bull & Bear Pub in Syracuse. "It almost feels like extortion. We're being bullied into this, and it's just ridiculous. It's the little guy getting beat up by the big guy," he said.

You can read the rest of the article [url=http://music.yahoo.com/read/news/34628119]HERE
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...and he says he's being bullied.

Each bar may have to be taken to court for some time to come before the owners start taking it seriously. I don't mean to sound like I'm putting down bar owners, I'm not. I'm only relaying the least expensive thoughts that are coming to my mind.

Karaoke will still be cheaper than other forms of entertainment that I can think of.

I hate to say it, but I'm glad to hear it is the bar being charged
and not the karaoke business. Through the years some copy rights have been pulled.
Who keeps track of what is still covered or not. Just like the Garth Brooks CDGS -
one minute you're covered the next your not - than you are again - geez

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Well it is basically because the bar didn't pay their licensing fees that any bar with any kind of music/tv/radio/MUZAK/jukebox/live music/dj reproduction are required to do.  Even if they pay for a jukebox & tv, it don't cover karaoke necessarily, each one has it's own needs.  Which is why they aren't going after the karaoke company - don't mention anything about copied music or computer format (ascap don't care about this aspect), it's not the karaoke companies responsibility - it's the clubs.  I'd be willing to give 5:1 odds that MOST karaoke clubs don't pay these fees & are just as vunerable.

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I'm confused as to why 5 songs would not be on the list.  Any ideas why they wouldn't be covered by the fees?

I read that as well,  it also stated "numerous warnings".... How many other things was this bar doing wrong that initially caused such a focus on them.... Isn't that bar a large chain ?  or am I thinking of a different bar chain...

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We have paid ASCAP fees for jukeboxes etc for years AsCAP on the whole is fair and if every bar would pay the small amount (which is negotible sometimes) you wouldnt see cases like this. The 5 songs were artists that they represent and part of the fee (unknown) is payment to the artist.

 We did have a case in a small town near Fort Collins where a small bar was paying fees for jukebox and live bands. A rep came in and told the owner he would have to pay more for  karaoke. The owner said hold on called his attorney and told the ASCAP rep to leave... He left...

My fears come from RIAA Here is a link that pretty well keeps up to date on copyright laws in congress. riaa copyright congess  It has links to about any industry involved and current bills pending etc. Check out RIAAS next moves in congress (if the link is gone google it)...I have spent hours on many links here and have never found anything remotely related to karaoke You can search cnet "karaoke" and nothing comes up...

I did fnd here that the fair use act legislation has been bogged down in subcomitees for 2 or 3 years now. (due to RIAA's powerful lobbying)

While I too have concerns about wholesale pirating it is obvious to me that karaoke copyrights are not even on the table right now. But I am real concerned about losing privacy rights on the internet and tools used by identity thieves.. And government spying and all RIAA does is add to the fuel to arguments for privacy elimination. They dont care about the public or those they represent they are driven by one thing.  Greed...

This is why I agree with what you say Ollie,  leave the legal stuff and legaleze up to the Atty's.... When someone walks into a bar you work at, what do you say ?... "They told me it's OK in KS?"  

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Some artists have released the copy rights on their songs and others haven't.
If you are using songs that haven't been released to use you can get in trouble.
I'm assuming they used 5 songs they shouldn't have. It isn't just karaoke, but the bands too.

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There are only a couple major publisher houses.  Ascap, bmi, sesac (more international).  The 5 songs were probably represented through ascap, the other songs were not.  Even if they paid BMI publishing fees, that would not cover anything by the others.  The bars need to pay to each house to be covered completely.

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Which is why I like SOCAN in Canada.  They handle ALL of that.  They are the only ones allowed to handle it.  One fee for the bar covers all copyrighted entertainment forms (TV, radio, sattilite, bands, karaoke, etc).  Once you pay the fees for whatever type of entertainment you have, you're covered.

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I thought the recent amended "Jukebox" act covered most of that... Except for satellite transmission, and of course it was dependent on things such as "cover charge",  "for profit",  Number of people entertained, etc... Pretty specific... Vinyl also was exempt... Jukebox act covered digital in certain cases as I recall...barring satellite transmission I believe

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Around here the bars that have pay per view TV, pay by the legal seating capacity.    The same for ASCAP & BMI.    But it's also based on the type of entertainment, band, DJ, KJ, Jukebox.   Karoke is the cheapest of those by the way.  

So they don't charge as much, since no professionals were harmed in the coarse of the karaoke production.  LMAO

$3500 for 5 yrs comes to about $13.46 per show if you do karaoke once a week. If you have 3 shows a week, that's about $4.49 per show. That sounds pretty reasonable to me. If the bar can't afford to pay that, they should probably think about finding another KJ. This one's obviously not getting the job done!

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I was hoping as much. That is quite reasonable.

Actually karaoke costs a little more since they are displaying the lyrics as well ie "Enhanced Recorded Music".  It is approx $.25-.50 more per year per occupant than standard recorded music.  It isn't covered by the jukebox license - most jukebox are covered under the jukebox provider.  It's not covered under live music either.  These are all separate fees  
Other things that require a license - if the bar charges cover charge
If there is dancing permitted
Television/radio
Background music like from MUZAK is covered by the provider since it's a subscription type service.

http://www.bmi.com/licensing/forms/ede.pdf  
This is just BMI's license fees, but the others are comparable.

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I wish we had that in the US.

In Malaysia Karaoke club need to pay to 2 parties:

1 To Music Author's Copyright Protection Berhad (MACP). Who collects royalties for song writers and lyricist whose copyrighted compositions are used in sound recordings.
2.To Public Performance (Malaysia) PPM. Who collects royalties for the sound recordings which are the copyright property of recording companies.

http://www.ppm.org.my

http://www.macp.com.my

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