Karaoke Forums

HMMMM ??? Good Question.

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Kelley
Star Sounds Karaoke & Mobile Recording Studio


[shadow=black][scroll]You have to respect your audience. Without them, you're essentially standing alone, singing to yourself....KD Lang[/scroll][/shadow]

I'm STILL wondering about this. Seriously, has anyone ever heard of this happening?!?. Would love to know if this kind of of suit would ever work! May just be wishful thinking, but it would be nice to know if a precedent(sp) has been set.

If no one has ever tried this- Karaoke Kelly, you could be a pioneer! I'll chip in $20 for your legal fund !

You still have to remember that it's the money that did it.     GREED is a powerful thing.   Karaoke around here is VERY Cut Throat.    

There is and always will be, somebody that wants what you have.   ENVY    Somebody wants your wife/husband, your house, your car, your income, your job, your dog, your dry spot under the bridge you live under.    It doesn't matter if they are all pieces of crap, scrap metal and worthless junk.   It will always be better than some other slobs stuff.    Look at some of the third world countries.   Do you want to trade places with any of them.   I'll bet they would take your place in a heartbeat.   WE have an over abundance of underprivileged and lazy people here, that love to have everything handed to them.

No bigdog,  as your 1st grade teacher I think it's important to remind you that,
"Money itself, can't do anything". It's the individuals character, "GREED", or poor value systems that allows such things to happen among those that allow greed to supercede values of family, in a world where proper ethical constructs, maturity, and value system's aren't emphasized as much as they likely should be..

There's alot that we "want" !   What differentiates "People", from the lower animal species, is that we are taught (hopefully) not to succumb to "impulse", "lust", and acting upon certain primal urges.  We are supposed to be capable of learning basic concepts as more intelligent animals living in a social structure. IE...."Do unto others".  In this particular case,  when we are invited to someone's house for dinner, and we walk past a casserole on the counter.. We don't start drooling, and jump on the counter knocking the food onto the floor and eating it all like a dog...

This "brother" was hired by his sister and brother in law.  This brother is 34 years of age. Obviously something is wrong with their relationship, and his value systems. OR, this is a case of a poor relationship. We don't know all the facts. Now it's possible that Kelly isn't duly representing what happened, we can't know whether or not the brother had a reason for being very angry, or not... However a more mature person could've resigned first, taken another job, and not handed out cards advertising the competition under the noses of his brother and sister-in-law in hopes of spiting them, IF this is actually what the motive was, and what genuinely happened.  We are hearing one-side of this story only.

I don't generally take seriously situations that aren't objectively presented.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

??? Am I to be correct in thinking all the longer posts in this thread were you giving  opinion based on what you "think" is "not the whole story" ?
 I agree with all of the people here that mentioned that GREED is a powerful thing. We Just started out seriously in November of last year. Have had a few promising gigs that like I  said were lost by this KJ for being " stuck on stupid " while he drank as he worked. We could have fired him after those instances. We didn't. We tried
to make it work he did not have a liciense so my husband had to take him to every gig drop him & eq. off and go get him at closing time our choice for not wanting to do bars ourselves but never the less we did all of that as we should have just to find out about his shananigans and to get " i need a raise " WHATEVER !! We hadnt kept a gig for more than 3 months? Thats hardly what I call merits for a raise he lost us more $ than made it .

So... Thats probably the # 1 reason this happened $ . I didnt for one minute think that the people he went to work for were going to pay him twice as much (as they promised) AND put up with lugging him around too. Thats probably why he called and asked for his job back about a week or so ago. He said he felt he was being used !! Well I guess they got out of him all they needed and now dont need him anymore. I feel sad for him in a way, but really, is the grass ALWAYS greener on the other side. We all know its not, he should have seen this coming. And really thought about what he was getting into before seeing the $ and being dupped into doing someone elses leg work.
I neither want or need to tell you all about my personal relationship w my brother do you not think it was ok? We DID hire him didnt we? I feel like you should all know that you dont hire people you dont like trust and feel they can do the job. Thats all you need to know about (IMO)

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Kelley
Star Sounds Karaoke & Mobile Recording Studio


[shadow=black][scroll]You have to respect your audience. Without them, you're essentially standing alone, singing to yourself....KD Lang[/scroll][/shadow]

No,   You are to think that my opinion is based on hearing just your side, and my making the ASSUMPTION that your brother would state your presentation to be absolute fact as well.  However, I seriously doubt that your younger brother would present this the exact same way as you are presenting it (from your own perspective). We have no idea what else went on, or if he was angered by something that was going on, the relationship between both he, and your brother in law, etc... Several situations are getting lumped together here.. "He divulged our buying sources to friends of his"..  Is that necessarily wrong ?  No. How to use equipment ?  Is this wrong ?  Nope,  not in my opinion.  Where your future prospects are ?  Is that wrong ?  Only assuming you told him DO NOT tell anybody (including close friends ANYTHING about the business).  Do we even know these friends were initially planning on becoming KJ's when your brother was speaking with them ?  We don't.  Maybe they became inspired as the result of chatting with him.. IS this wrong.. NOT AT ALL !    This is real life.  How he handled things, and how YOU are viewing this is not totally objective.  We don't know both sides to this, and all actual aspects that transpired are what makes up REALITY.

My point is, there are ALWAYS at least two sides to every story like this.  Is that not correct ?   This is how family situations can and do clutter business issues, and vice versa.




Was their intent, initially "to start a business of their own" ?  or did they say, "hey, that looks like fun, why don't we get into something like that too" ? and when he informs you he's leaving you, but gives some notice, you say "Like Hell" ?  Depending on the communication all of you had, that might, OR might not've been appropriate of you.  Too many factor's involved here... You did say "In brief" this is what transpired. Who knows ? Why "like hell" ?  He might NEED more money.  He has every right to work for whomever he chooses to work for.  I don't understand up to this point WHY you are saying what he's done is wrong.  He didn't leave you high and dry.  Why would you say "like Hell?".   After-all, I tell my friends where I buy my equipment, I certainly WOULD tell neighbors and ALL friends how to use equipment... and I'd tell everyone here where I buy my tech stuff dirt cheap.... It's called sharing helpful knowledge with friends..... UNLESS of course you told him "You are NOT to share any aspects of your brother-in-laws business with ANYBODY, you do not share our sources of purchase, how to use our equipment, etc."....

We don't know this whole story, and to be honest,  How can we know how you interrelate in real ?  This is a typed partial presentation.  Correct ? That aside, how can anyone determine what's morally right or wrong based on only hearing ONE person's side to a story ?  Would that be fair ?  NO

Handing out cards in your place of business isn't a "nice" thing to do IMHO... but if he wasn't being unreasonable, and you basically tell him "like hell", or
"the nerve of you to do certain things", and YOU sour the relationship with your attitude..(certain things that even YOU might share with YOUR OWN friends, unless told  you can't share this info), there *IS* perhaps a different side to this story as well... Maybe ?  Maybe not.  To make determinations on what's "morally" right or wrong, requires ALOT of objectivity and the whole situation presented factually.  Not a partial presentation.  

What I am stating isn't unreasonable.  We DO NOT know the facts.  We hear your presentation, but don't know firsthand what went on in both your family, and business relationship..  We haven't seen how you all interrelate, nor do we see your actual attitude, and communicative skill's, or lack of skill's while all this is unfolding.

The legality of their hard drives ?  A whole separate issue as well !.

I deal with area's of ethics (just about) daily.  In order to be fair,  it's important to have an exact presentation.  "In brief" often leaves out a few VERY important things !  Would  you have even tolerated his issues,  and hired him at all had he not been your brother ?  Yet another aspect of all this.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I only do that when pizza is near

Chuck,  I don't get invited to peoples homes anylonger  LOL  Why do you think I gave this as an example ?  I learned firsthand !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

And we did. When we first started this business.

I dont really know whose idea it was. Dont care. Also his notice was " I will continue to work for you UNTIL we get a show. What I heard was: I'll continue to work with you to find out what you're planning to do with your business up until the last minute and steal every idea youve got. THATS WHY I said Like He** you will.All this was done so sneaky right under our noses. By the time we found out it was not notice it was stabbing.  It wasnt out of respect he gave notice it was really to see if we would hand him more $ to stay first of all and to "push the knife in a little deeper" in the meantime

Anyways a mute point to you obviously is that we tried several attempts at making it work when he lost gig after gig $ after $ and then says " thanks, sis, F you !"
Like I said earlier I am now realizing its more of a personal burn and deep hurt than professional anything. - for God Sake !! Not a multi million $ corporation were talking about. I just wanna make a few friends a few bucks and be happy as Im sure all of you and even my brother does, but what I am NOT willing to do is roll over & die every time he does this to us. Thats why I'm here for advise , and am getting plenty and I thank all of you by the way.  I just would hope that you all think more of family than my brother did. Thats all. Crazy to think that one of us ( like it almost happened to me 4 years ago ) could be faced with a tragic ordeal and not be around for each other because of our arguements over karaoke. But... at the same time I AM trying VERY hard to let bygones be bygones, "you do your thing I'll do mine" but hes always in my face I compete with several other karaoke companies out there none of them are ALWAYS in my face. Competition isnt the problem here its ethics that is the problem. Its personal for him ( i believe) to try to prove or show me that hes got an upper hand at things knowing that we are not going to start a family brawl in the middle of a show or gig. Like hes doing it just to see how many buttons he can push before we blow. I came HERE before I blew the other day. Good thing b/c I [glow=orange]personally[/glow] would have done the oppisite of most of your advise at the time. This forum gave me a chance to take a look see from other perspectives, and cool down. My husband which IS the owner  of this company had views much like many of yours. ( ignore, be the bigger people) so [glow=gold]professionally[/glow] I CANT blow my top . Ive got a reputation and business ethics enough NOT TO So like I said, going to try to ignore his unwelcome visits to my gigs, ( hey at least hes at my gig and not at one he has lined up for that day, right?)      
 I hope you dont feel like Im arguing, just relaying facts ( i guess you'd  say " according to me" )

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Kelley
Star Sounds Karaoke & Mobile Recording Studio


[shadow=black][scroll]You have to respect your audience. Without them, you're essentially standing alone, singing to yourself....KD Lang[/scroll][/shadow]

Nope.  Don't feel you're arguing anymore than you'd have a right to feel that I am arguing with you  LOL ..  That's where "Two sides" and some objectivity come into play.  ALL I'm stating, is that it's important to have as much info as we can in order to come to some conclusion.  Especially one involving many areas..



Than *I* feel HE was wrong in discussing things outside of your business.

(Still reading)




That's the agonizing aspect of family/business mix when things go downhill. It IS a personal burn. Thing is, it DOES complicate things when we try to push for family, in a business area, where (assuming they were John Doe) we'd know never to hire them.  We are partial and bend over backwards at times, when if it was a different employee we did NOT have such ties to... perhaps they'd have been "let go" long ago, or never hired... So it isn't a moot issue that you gave him many chances.  Personal and business mixed together, and it's a different type situation than just a standard employee/employer relationship... I never understood until recently... (wasn't until I was close to 40 in fact) why my father NEVER allowed me to apply for a job in a business where he was a CEO, or director of a dept... Now I understand why... It CAN be very tough among family when certain things happen UNFORTUNEATELY... PERHAPS you made a mistake hiring, or keeping your brother as long as you did ?   These are tough situations.  We can ALL make them... We do often look out for family first, and wish to give family a break... Is this wrong... NOPE... but can it complicate things in a professional business context... HELL YES !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Good luck to you guys, Karaoke Kelley.

You are still doing much better than I think I would have done given the circumstances. I could only hope to be as professional as you guys are if I am ever faced with a similar situation. Since I am still alive and so is my closest sister, it could happen to me in some way.

Chuck

Yes,  These are very difficult situations.  Without a doubt !    We SHOULD look after our family when possible, I agree.  Business can get ugly...  When it is, or isn't smart to hire a spouse in a small business ?  I don't know... Many do it, and it works... God only knows.... Depends on SO many things.. But in general, it CAN get very very trying !   I agree with what Tim stated as a general rule for that reason alone.  Father's and Son's have had relationships severed based on events that they weren't able to handle together when push came to shove... It happens ALOT  :(


Good luck !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I echo Kap's remarks.  There is always another side to a story.  Kelley, I'm sure that your brother has a different perspective on this than you do.  That doesn't mean that he's right and you are wrong.  All it means is that it's different.  

I've have seen the tenor of your posts change though.  It seems that you are now able to separate the personal and professional elements of your brother's actions and that's good.  You've also recognized that for too long you may have put up with the negative effects your brother's actions had on your business.  We all make those kinds of mistakes and they are much easier to make when family is involved.

There really are two separate issues here.  The first one is what to do about your brother.  Your personal relationship with him has suffered as the result of what he's done and at some point you are going to have to give some consideration to that.  Has he burned bridges that can't be repaired?  How important is that to you and your family.  One thing seems certain; he has violated your trust and generosity and you may not want to put that to the test again.  I wouldn't blame you.

The other issue is the professional one.  You've now got competition where you didn't before.  How are you going to handle that?  You seem to have a pretty good attitude about it—you're going to keep on going and do your utmost to give your "owners" the very best show possible.  If you are really bringing value to your owners, and that's the test we all have to pass, they will realize it and in the long run you may create stronger ties than you had in the first place.

Several posts ago someone mentioned an "unfair competition" lawsuit.  Just to be clear, there is no such thing.  You can sue for loss of trade secrets.  You can sue for violation of written agreement and in rate cases a suit involving violation of a verbal agreement can be successful.  You can also sue for industrial espionage.  But based on your account, none of that happened here.

My reading of your posts suggests that any knowledge or information your brother passed on to his friends was all in the public domain.  It's free to anyone.  

About the only thing you might have going for you is if your brother passed along a list of the places you play to his friends.  That would be considered to be passing along confidential internal documents and that is actionable.  

For example, if a salesman leaves a company and takes another job in the same industry it is usual for him to solicit business from his former customers.  That's just a common practice.  Legally, it's okay to do that AS LONG AS THE CONTACTS ARE MADE FROM MEMORY.  Leaving an employer and taking a long a printout that shows names, addresses, phone numbers, contact persons, etc. of the former employer's 300 biggest customers isn't allowed.  

You might have a difficult time proving that's what happened in this case.  I think most of us do most of our gigs in a fairly well defined region.  There are only so many places that are likely to hire us.  For anyone involved in karaoke, either as a KJ or a singer, those places are usually pretty well known.  So even if your brother did give a list to his friends, it may not constitute a violation that is important enough to justify legal action.

Competition is not illegal.  In fact, in our system it's not only legal it's encouraged.  That's why there are anti-trust and restraint of trade statutes and regulations.  The sad fact is that not all competition is conducted in an honorable fashion.  And the law allows plenty of leeway because competition is thought to be a good thing.

Wal-mart has flourished because of it's competitive practices.  Not everybody appreciates their tactics.  But I don't believe that anyone has ever been able to show that there actions have been illegal.  Their MO has been to buy in incredible quantities so as to reduce the cost of their inventory as much as possible.  Their operating plan calls for reducing costs wherever possible.  The result is that Wal-mart can set prices at such a low level that drives out the competition because they cannot sell profitably for the same price.  

At that point it's up to the consumer to decide if they want to deal with Wal-mart.  Personally, I think much of their inventory is of low quality and there are lots of things I would never buy at Wal-mart.  And I have a low opinion of their business practices to that tends to reduce the amount of business that I give them.  But there are times when I simply cannot afford to buy elsewhere because of the pricing.

Your show is no different than the Wal-mart example.  You have to compete when and where you can.  And that's where providing value to your owners comes in.  But that should always be your main goal anyway.

Larry

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"Life is too short for diet soda and lite beer"

Of course hindsight is 20/20 but yes keeeping him after he got "stuck on stupid" ( one of my favorite sayings if you cant tell ) and lost the first 2 day a week show was probably the wrong thing to do we have said it before if it were anyone else they would have been gone. We did feel like at times we were too leniant, but ... ( have no excuse)  other than " hes my brother" guess thats our fault .
Dont know if youve read my other posts in the what to do now thread but got the word we now dont have a show at all ( not anythng to do w/ my brother ) and I guess this is bugging me more than it normally would because of having to step up the game and get another gig. Just a little antsy I guess.
We'll make it . But thank God this isnt paying the bills !!

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Kelley
Star Sounds Karaoke & Mobile Recording Studio


[shadow=black][scroll]You have to respect your audience. Without them, you're essentially standing alone, singing to yourself....KD Lang[/scroll][/shadow]

I understand this, and am not foolish enough to think that they wouldnt find a place to buy equipment or a place to do a gig by themselves. MY point is MY BROTHER had no business making it easier for them or anyone else for that matter, while he was working for us.

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Kelley
Star Sounds Karaoke & Mobile Recording Studio


[shadow=black][scroll]You have to respect your audience. Without them, you're essentially standing alone, singing to yourself....KD Lang[/scroll][/shadow]

Absolutely agree !    Being a musician,  I was instructed ALL the while,  just be careful that whatever you end up doing, doesn't kill your love for music... Because that's a "friend" you can always have !    It never did,  although I had a complete breakdown on the road, and ended up hospitalized.  Maybe in a sense, I'm lucky that I just wasn't a strong enough person to ever get to the point, where if I was a little stronger, yet still not "tough enough",  The competition, and hell would've made music itself a repugnant thing for me.  As it stands, I just hate the touring life-style.. Someone else would've done better in it.  I wasn't able to...  We live and learn... THing is,  performing arts, or entertainment ARE NOT easy to make a living in.  

Today. with everything going on in the world, and stricter legislation. ANYTHING in the bar industry is TOUGH !!   Entertainment WILL of course be the first to get cut, when revenue suffer's !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

and realistically, I'D likely make the SAME EXACT mistake if I had a sibling that needed work.  WE ALL learn from one-another's experiences here. I'm no better, or wiser when it comes to this type of situation.  We are all human with emotions, and bias...  Makes things tough much of the time...

So reading about this, is educational for ME as well,  It's a reminder (as Chuck implied) that these situations are always out there.  How about a family member who needs to shelter money,  they put it in a loved ones name,  and that person isn't quite so trustworthy ?   ALOT of similar tough situations when it comes to

love
trust
money

As bigdog was trying to say




Larry,

  I agree, but Kelly cleared this up when she stated "He was told not to share inside info"...  *at least in my opinion*... NOW, the tough part.... If I was working for a large company, and was discussing inside secret's with loved ones, or very close friends to help them out, would I be wrong ?  ABSOLUTELY... Would I still do it...ABSOLUTELY....

 I'm no angel,  never claimed to be.... HOWEVER... In closer situations this all get's tougher, because if I'm employed by a larger firm, that I have no personal ties to, just business stuff.... FEW things get found out.... the relationship STILL is at arms length... Family can be too close for comfort

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Glad I could be of some help  LMAO

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Kelley
Star Sounds Karaoke & Mobile Recording Studio


[shadow=black][scroll]You have to respect your audience. Without them, you're essentially standing alone, singing to yourself....KD Lang[/scroll][/shadow]

 

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Kelley
Star Sounds Karaoke & Mobile Recording Studio


[shadow=black][scroll]You have to respect your audience. Without them, you're essentially standing alone, singing to yourself....KD Lang[/scroll][/shadow]

Dont know how I missed this post but thank you we are [highlight=red]trying[/highlight] to be professional about this

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Kelley
Star Sounds Karaoke & Mobile Recording Studio


[shadow=black][scroll]You have to respect your audience. Without them, you're essentially standing alone, singing to yourself....KD Lang[/scroll][/shadow]