Karaoke Forums

I've thought long and hard about making this post... because it truly is just my opinion, but I can't understand why nobody talks about the reason Piracy exists in the first place.

Same reason why lime wire existed...
Same reason why android boxes exist today.


Customers got mad and fought back. Back in the early 2000's artists were being manufactured like cheap Chinese toys and made known for one over marketed song... the only way to aquire that song was to buy a disc full of filler.

Same thing with cable... at least in Canada. 300 channels of crap, and in order to get the one channel you want, you have to buy a pack of 20 other channels full of crap.

People got tired of it.

Karaoke was no different. Now despite my distaste for Sound Choice's business practices, they were probably the least to blame out of all the manufactures back then.. and predicting karaoke can sometimes be a shot in the dark...

But it seemed like we were always buying discs for one or 2 songs and the rest filled with crap or duplicates. It was maddening. So enter the mp3+g.... just like the mp3 before it...

Only nobody has bothered to take the mp3g seriously. Mp3s have been solved. Piracy in music took a big hit with iTunes and companies following suit, but we're too busy arguing over who gets what dollar to realize that an entire generation has passed us by.

HMV IS CLOSING ALL CANADIAN STORES.

Do you realize what that means?

Cds are dying.

Selling these starter packages for the low price of $7000 are only adding to the problem. No one starting out wants to pay that. Songs should depreciate so it gives a fresh face a fighting chance.

So piracy has basically destroyed our industry...what do we do?

Please feel free to poke holes in this, but I think the answer is simple.

Make the common mp3+g illegal to use in commercial environments.

Let me explain.

I think we need to take cues from alot of the different solutions being introduced by the various different companies trying to solve the problem. This would take alot of collaboration between manu's and program makers.

Karafun has probably the best lead on the answer with their .kar format.

Now let's say that we outlaw mp3 g... then let's say that each Manu has their own encrypted file format. And let's say there's like a 2 year window for karaoke hosts to comply with the new rules (and a discounted conversion tool)

Karafun has .kar
Pep has .Pep
Zoom has .zm

Ect..

Each has their own environment with player, song and starter packs and of course the ability to convert a current library for a price.

Each program is a pay per song aquisition or permonth/year schedule like karafun.

The user pays for the license to use the programs and their file format and in turn the companies pays it's fees to provide that environment.

If you switch environments there's a fee to transfer all music to that environment. It's low at first... say for that 2 year window. After that it's a really high fee making host really think about their decisions.

If we need to convert mp3 g.... well that's a big fee after that 2 year window.

And any program serious about running karaoke shows will drop native mp3+g

Sure some pirates will sneak under the wire and will probably bask in their illegal turned legal gains...

But at least this might give us an end to this stupid game.


Thoughts?

1) let's say PEP kas the .PEP file format.
instead of torrenting the .mp3g files they will torrent the .pep files.

2) different files for different manus means that if
PEP has song 1,
Zoom has song 2,
Sunfly has song 3, and
Karaoke Version has song 4,
you will need to switch between players during the shows or only buy form one manu who does not have the songs your singers want or need.

3) you stated the real answer in your post
"Piracy in music took a big hit with iTunes and companies following suit"
and the only companies remaining in business have embraced that format of sales.

you are correct i feel about the reasoning...
"we were always buying discs for one or 2 songs and the rest filled with crap or duplicates. It was maddening."
but mp3g was not grown from that reasoning, but ease of use and transport. SELLING as mp3g a-la-carte came from your reason of crap and dupes.
why?
"we were always buying discs for one or 2 songs and the rest filled with crap or duplicates. It was maddening."

it HAS had an impact on DISC sales, but that is not because of the mp3g format, but the music world has progressed away from physical media and into a-la-carte sales and digital delivery. and the industry has shown that if you offer people music they want, in the format they want, at a reasonable price, they buy.
why?
"we were always buying discs for one or 2 songs and the rest filled with crap or duplicates. It was maddening."

EVERYONE?...oh hell no. people that want to steal will always steal no matter what or what format.
but look at karaoke, just take this forum for instance.
the ones not buying downloads on a regular basis for their new music are in the minority.
why?
"we were always buying discs for one or 2 songs and the rest filled with crap or duplicates. It was maddening."


yes, the same thing it meant when Blockbuster, Tower Records, Camelot Music, Sam Goody, FYE, etc closed all their stores...
physical media is all but dead.
http://www.hmv.com/ca
http://www.blockbuster.com/
http://www.tower.com/
http://www.fye.com/ (F.Y.E. purchased Camelot Music and Sam Goody)
can you still get discs from them?...sure. just not on every corner like before
they are still in business, just moved to the format of sales that people today want.
that is smart business, and if you look at the karaoke landscape...

Karaoke Version - Online
Chartbuster (now Karaokecloud) - Online
Sunfly - Online
Zoom - Online
Party Tyme - Online
S.B.I. - Online
can you still get discs from them?...sure. just not on every corner like before.

_________________
Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

As far as why piracy exists I don't buy into the blame the victim argument.

People like free stuff and the odds of the pirate getting caught and punished are slim and he knows it, so he steals it.

Same as the old peer sharing networks did even with best of records from the original artists

instead of paying for an album completely full of hits they stole them as well.

"Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free" is still a common human mindset.

Also what may have been filler to one KJ, the rest was killer to another. I see people posting discs with songs they have never used while they get used quite often at my (or others) shows. Just because songs weren't used at your show doesn't mean they are junk (filler), it just means your crowd doesn't use those songs - buy a little more carefully, me for example was never one to buy every disc from every manu. I would look for discs that had over half of new material and not duplicating what I had (unless it was a special request where I would buy a disc for 1 song). Karaoke music cost more because it is such a niche market, cost of licensing (well for the companies that did) and such. COST overall was the primary reason piracy ran rampant. MP3G just made it easier.
Piracy has existed since the existence of cd burners. I knew kj's that had these burners in their rig. Customer discs were more prevalent and would bring in the discs to sing, walla - the kj now had that disc too and added it to their library. Nothing to do with mp3g. I know kj's that would swap libraries (which I NEVER understood - why would I want my competition to have exactly what I had too).

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Big Jer is right on. People pirate music because they can. Piracy is a big problem in software too, so your "excess tracks" argument break down right there.

We're in a new world where lawmakers and law enforcement don't know how to effectively police digital crime. It'll come, but for now, karaoke just doesn't have the enforcement of piracy laws on our side. Rival KJs and karaoke bars are left to police themselves and prosecute unfair business practices on our own at our own expense, which most of us don't have to spend on a lawsuit for laws that are not very well defined or even understood.

Go down to the police station and report a karaoke pirate. Even though it's against the law, see how much they care. At best, they'll let you file a report and put it in a drawer. Likely, they'll basically say that they are not equipped to handle it.

That's the core problem, like Lon said. No consequences. Humans do all sorts of messed up stuff when they think no one will find out.

_________________
C Mc
KJ, FL

It's definitely the lack of consequences, but it's more than that. There are lots of people who are willing to work hard to ensure that pirates experience no consequences.

I agree with you all... and yet disagree at the same time.

Piracy didn't start with discs. One could argue that recording your favorite song on a radio with a blank tape was piracy.

Blank Cds back in the 90's could be viewed as a way to keep your property from being damaged. It could also, and was, viewed as piracy even if the 1 to 1 ratio was upheld.

And I agree that pirates will be pirates no matter what media format our industry is in.... but I do argue that not enough affordable and easy alternatives are available to the consumer. It's a virtual minefield of laws, costs and inability to aquire tracks.

A prime example would be Karaoke Locker... Sting Ray music licensed for personal use that was, at one point, made available on commercial products like PCDJ and Kjams... what's the message there?

I agree with Paradigm in that the online sources are the way of the future..... but alot of that list is technically not available in North America.

So here we are... scouring eBay and garage sales in 2017 for out of print discs and CAVS packages because it's still our best resource.

Please don't think I agree with piracy. I just think we're moving in the wrong direction, and while my line of thinking may not be perfect... I just hope it sparks some out of the box solution so we can end this war.

I wouldn't exactly say "lots of people". Some have speculated (including me) that the reason KS is dwindling in numbers and activity, is because of our strong anti-piracy stance. Before the lawsuits all started there were hundreds, and maybe thousands of ACTIVE members.... now there are a few dozen. Why? Because we quickly warn those that appear to be pirates that we will not help them if they are using stolen music!

That's true of many people on this board. (Probably most, but definitely not all.) We are grateful to those of you who do take a strong stance against piracy.

I will tell you why I used to pirate karaoke music. For me, it was because I didn't know any better.

Yes there was the whole thing of having to buy a whole disc for the one or two songs that you really wanted, but what really confused me at the time was why karaoke music was so expensive. When I first got into karaoke, a sound choice disc was anywhere between $30-40 Canadian including taxes. Other brands like chartbuster were as much as $30. The 'cheap' brands were around $20. I didn't understand why you could get a music CD for around $15 and karaoke was so much more expensive.

I figured it was just a why for the karaoke producer to gouge the consumer, so I just basically took the attitude of I'll take what I want, and if I start using it on a regular basis, then i'll pay for it. Besides, at these prices, the karaoke companies are prolly making money hand over fist, it's like like my actions will affect them any.

Then when I decided that I wanted to try being a karaoke host, I did my research and I learned WHY karaoke is so expensive, that what I do does affect the karaoke companies, and why I couldn't get anyone to give me 100% indemnity to media/format shift my collection.

So now I pay for all my music that I use/own/rent. Is it all 'legal"? That depends on who you ask. I was buying downloads from tricerasoft for several years, including after the rules changed for the UK licensing. I figure, I paid for it, and I will use it until some legal authority tells me that I can't but at least I am paying for all the music that I use now.

I never said I was perfect, I just do the best that I can.

-James

I agree. Karaoke music is expensive to produce, and I've always understood the price of the discs.. I too found SC too expensive, but gouging comes in many forms.. not just disc price.

It can be as transparent as THM PHM and the likes by populating discs with 2 or 3 solid tracks and the rest being good for making the book bigger.. but let me describe something that used to drive me bananas

A marketing tactic that was probably innocent in its creation, but definitely made things difficult for people trying to fill song requests..

Pop pack:
Song 1,2,3,4,5,6

Party pack
Song 2,3,5,6,7,8

Power pack
Song 4,5,6,9,10,1

OK Now We're On Crack Pack
Song 11,12, 1, 3, 5,7

Ect...

If you wanted 1,5,7,10 and 12... well. Good luck

Then came the custom cdg... great solution... expensive... and not all the tracks were available.

Zoom still uses this in their disc sales, and as we all know their digital solutions are off limits to North America.

The mp3 in its creation illegal solution. The mp3g was too. Our industry unfortunately has lost complete control of it, and all I see from my position is people arguing over who gets paid what.

The people on this board try hard to stay legit. But we all know we are the extreme minority.

The way I look at it is if I legally bought my songs from a company whether it's online or not it is not my responsibility to check if the songs are legal and all the fees were paid. Me paying the company means the fees were paid and I am 100% legal and I could care less otherwise. If the company accepted my money for the songs, to me they are up and up with paying the fees. Because in the past, I've bought from Tricerasoft too, and I'm still using the songs in my shows because I paid for it!

I'm way off track here guys. This was supposed to be less about blaming manu's and more about a solution... I just wanted to illustrate that manu's were/are part of the problem... not the whole problem.

BTW... I was into the wine last night. I'll try to be more clear.

Here is where we are: hard drives are available on any website you want to be at... eBay, Amazon, kijiji. Well organized torrents are available if you don't want to purchase the drive. The sheer volume of pirate solutions available is a solid gold indication of a poor forward progression as an industry. We still can't get our (@$%&#!) together 20 years later.

The idea I posted wasn't really what I was driving at. I was saying the mp3g is lost. Let's abandon it and try again.

With cooperation throughout the industry, we could make file types do pretty much anything we wanted them to do.

Which opens up all kinds of what ifs.

What if compuhost had licensing for .zm, .pep, and .sbi... they had a song store that runs alot like the app stores on your phones. What if that licensing was passed off to the consumer, so if they fall out of license... the program just won't work.

What if when we buy these file types, or convert them for a cost, the program used to run it writes in licensing information to each and every track, and the program won't play the song without it. What if the cost to remove that licensing and embed new licensing for a new program environment was enough to make people think about their decisions.

What if we could rewrite the way digital karaoke was delivered

Illegal mp3g will forever be attainable. To make legal karaoke attractive, it has to be easily attainable and very affordable. Right now, legal mp3g/mp4 is pretty easily attainable and affordable for the small minority that have the morals and ethics to purchase it.

To make karaoke attainable and affordable through some licensed app, at least as it stands now, doesn't sound easily attainable, usable or affordable. A pretty solid solution would have to be put forth to make it as easily attainable and affordable as it is now.

_________________
DJ Don

It's only illegal if the manus supplying it do not get the rights to distribute in that form. Karaoke.net for example have all licenses in place for both home AND kj/commercial use downloads.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

As you probably already know, the Feds placed a tax on blank CDs,
(700 meg "Music" CDs only) planning to forward funds over to "Rights Holders"
to offset real or perceived piracy.

This solution worked well enough, (however, some claim the "Overhead" was onerous.) and everyone was happy.
Today, the sale of CDs has plummeted almost to zero.
(I suspect "Bit Rot" and higher density DVDs as well as USB hard drives.)

Now, the "Rights Holders" in the UK are screaming, "Where are my royalties?"

Reality Check: Karaoke discs, are a "New Work" and involve many license fees and/or "Arrangements".

I suspect the karaoke rights holders never saw any of this "Tax" revenue.

I agree. The high cost of conversion in my head hampers the amount of times a KJ would be switching licenses and file types... but the licensing for the programs should be within reality.... that brings control back to music delivery which should in turn boost competition, and competition brings afordibility

Actually I didn't know that. This was around the time I was getting started in karaoke. That's very interesting.

Or you know... maybe I'm crazy from laying awake at night trying to figure out ways to compete

A bit of "History".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_copying_levy

Amazon Squeals.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-es ... tax-583911

Canada Squeals.

When 70% Of The Cost Of Blank CDs Goes Straight To The Recording Industry
from the an-awful-lot dept
It's well known that Canada has a "private copying levy" on blank CDs. This tax was pushed by the entertainment industry as compensation for the fact that many people will use blank CDs to record music. It's somewhat up in the air whether or not this means that private copying is completely legal in Canada (the recording industry still insists no, many people insist yes). However, Michael Geist notes that the latest proposed tariff would keep the fee the same, despite the fact that the cost of blank CDs keeps dropping. This leads to a distorted market where more than half the cost of the blank CDs Canadians buy may go straight to the recording industry. Geist points to a deal for 200 blank CDs that costs $60 -- $42 of which goes to the recording industry.