Karaoke Scene's Karaoke Forums :: A Bad Idea Becomes A Good One?

Who gets the $50.00? Who does all of the administrative work to make this happen?

It's not that the idea is bad, it's just unrealistic. The logistics are a nightmare.

Unless you are going to donate your time to do this universal licencing? :roll:

I'll point out that current pricing for the HELP license is between $159/mo and $420/mo, depending on the market, and it only covers one producer. Your universal license at $50/mo leaves no meat on the bone and is far below any approximation of the cost a legit operator would have incurred by buying discs.

Jim you can put lipstick on a pig, it is still a pig! The original complaint about the idea if you recall was the legal hosts objected to the amnesty feature of the license proposal. They really didn't get into a discussion about cost or logistics. I was accused of being a pirate supporter by even suggesting licensing. Your program still offers amnesty for a higher price, it is still amnesty. If you lowered the price you might get more hosts to sign on, how many of these gold plated licenses have your sold? You can't just look at the per unite price, you have to think big and go for volume. If all 50,000 hosts signed up even at 50.00 a month it would be quite a chunk of change.

Our analysis indicates that the demand for these licenses is almost completely inelastic to price at the range we charge. We could not get 50,000 hosts to sign up for $10 a month, much less $50.

The only thing that pushes most hosts to pay the license fee is the threat that we will sue them and their venues if they don't get licensed. Once that threat happens, they come around, and they do so whether the price is $50 or $420.

What has changed to make something that was morally unacceptable into being acceptable?

This is not a case of a bad idea becomes a good one.

This is a case of an idea like "universal license" (which was discussed and discarded) being compared to something similar, but fundamentally different

This is a case of a "specific license" which covers a specific product.

Any individual with rudimentary comprehension can understand that there were, in fact, several comments concerned with logistics and financial matters.

That being said, I don't agree with your premise that the original idea has been turned into a "good" one.

It was always about: Why should pirates be able to access material that they did not pay for?

The new idea puts a price on it... that doesn't mean I have to like it.

The Lone Ranger wrote:

What has changed to make something that was morally unacceptable into being acceptable?

Nothing. It has not changed.

I took a look at the new HELP pricing. My area is listed in the Denver Market even though I am 50 miles away from the city limits. The average KJ here considers $100.00 in a bar A GOOD PAYING GIG!!!!!! (that's an owner operator not a hired gun running someone else's system) Bands here don't even make $75.00 a person. The money just isn't here but it's listed in a big city market. Go figure.
Here you have to OWN your content or it is not worth doing. I don't see how a help licensing scheme makes sense in my area and I'm sure many others. Buying content from companies like KV makes much more sense while hoping some of the SC only tunes get relicensed and re released by other manus.

screamersusa wrote:

It's all relative what used to be considered peanuts in this industry is a GOOD PAYING GIG!!!!!! Many would say it is the pirate that has caused it. The money just isn't there anymore, I don't care if you are playing in public or in private clubs. The only thing that still commands a high price are private parties, private clubs and Weddings which in my opinion should be done in the DJ format. The reason Jim can't get his gold plated price for his HELP license is there would be not meat left on the bone for the host. It is a terrible thing when two dogs are fighting over the same meat on the same bone.

I'm impressed. You must really have to work hard to misunderstand things so badly.

KJs are more than happy to use the product. They want to use it.

They don't want to pay for it, and most of them won't pay for it until they believe we're going to come after then for stealing it... Then they pay.

What happens in 5 or 10 years when or if PEP decides to sell their brands, to the people that purchased PEP's licensing agreements for SC or CB ? Will someone else come in a say they are null and void ? Kind of like what happened to people that bought CB & SC disc but now are being told they can't media shift a product they purchased legally.

Just curious.

Author:	The Lone Ranger [ Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:30 am ]
Post subject:	A Bad Idea Becomes A Good One?
Seems strange to me that when I suggested a simple universal karaoke operator's license years ago at a fair price of $50.00 a month many hosts decried the idea as giving aide and comfort to the pirates. That it was a Bad Idea and that it would make legal the hosts that were directly competing with the real legit hosts. I was dismissed as being foolish, and aiding in the illegal use of copyrighted materials, even stealing from the manus. What I don't understand if this was such a bad idea why did SC start this HELP program? It is the same concept only on a smaller scale more expensive, but still it is a amnesty program. The very type of program I was roundly denounced for. I guess if you give any bad idea enough time, some people will come around and consider it a GOOD ONE.

Author:	TopherM [ Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A Bad Idea Becomes A Good One?
Who gets the $50.00? Who does all of the administrative work to make this happen? It's not that the idea is bad, it's just unrealistic. The logistics are a nightmare. Unless you are going to donate your time to do this universal licencing?

Author:	The Lone Ranger [ Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A Bad Idea Becomes A Good One?
TopherM wrote: Who gets the $50.00? Who does all of the administrative work to make this happen? It's not that the idea is bad, it's just unrealistic. The logistics are a nightmare. Unless you are going to donate your time to do this universal licencing? I wasn't talking about logistics or cost, just as a concept it was supposed to be bad, because it meant amnesty for all of the pirates who had been operating all of these years. Now the concept is accepted merely because SC has rolled out it's own version of the same original idea. If it was a bad idea to begin with, isn't just as bad now? I just threw this out as an idea, I didn't say it wouldn't need some work to make it come true. Now SC has made it come true sort of.

Author:	JimHarrington [ Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A Bad Idea Becomes A Good One?
I'll point out that current pricing for the HELP license is between $159/mo and $420/mo, depending on the market, and it only covers one producer. Your universal license at $50/mo leaves no meat on the bone and is far below any approximation of the cost a legit operator would have incurred by buying discs.

Author:	The Lone Ranger [ Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Bad Idea Becomes A Good One?
JimHarrington wrote: I'll point out that current pricing for the HELP license is between $159/mo and $420/mo, depending on the market, and it only covers one producer. Your universal license at $50/mo leaves no meat on the bone and is far below any approximation of the cost a legit operator would have incurred by buying discs. Jim you can put lipstick on a pig, it is still a pig! The original complaint about the idea if you recall was the legal hosts objected to the amnesty feature of the license proposal. They really didn't get into a discussion about cost or logistics. I was accused of being a pirate supporter by even suggesting licensing. Your program still offers amnesty for a higher price, it is still amnesty. If you lowered the price you might get more hosts to sign on, how many of these gold plated licenses have your sold? You can't just look at the per unite price, you have to think big and go for volume. If all 50,000 hosts signed up even at 50.00 a month it would be quite a chunk of change.

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Author:	doowhatchulike [ Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Bad Idea Becomes A Good One?
My thoughts on analogies has been strongly voiced; however, I consider this to be a point with more direct relevancy: I doubt seriously that the record industry took into account the amount of money people spent on CD collections when they were formulating their digital business models...

Author:	djdon [ Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Bad Idea Becomes A Good One?
Who's going to administrate it? Who's going to enforce it? Will the admin/enforcement work for free? What legitimate host would pay for it? How would it be advertised? Who would care if we had one? Who would care if we didn't? We've been down this road in the DJ world. While it may sound good in theory to legitimate operators, it's completely unrealistic to make it work.

Author:	JimHarrington [ Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Bad Idea Becomes A Good One?
The Lone Ranger wrote: Jim you can put lipstick on a pig, it is still a pig! The original complaint about the idea if you recall was the legal hosts objected to the amnesty feature of the license proposal. They really didn't get into a discussion about cost or logistics. I was accused of being a pirate supporter by even suggesting licensing. Your program still offers amnesty for a higher price, it is still amnesty. If you lowered the price you might get more hosts to sign on, how many of these gold plated licenses have your sold? You can't just look at the per unite price, you have to think big and go for volume. If all 50,000 hosts signed up even at 50.00 a month it would be quite a chunk of change. Our analysis indicates that the demand for these licenses is almost completely inelastic to price at the range we charge. We could not get 50,000 hosts to sign up for $10 a month, much less $50. The only thing that pushes most hosts to pay the license fee is the threat that we will sue them and their venues if they don't get licensed. Once that threat happens, they come around, and they do so whether the price is $50 or $420.

Author:	screamersusa [ Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Bad Idea Becomes A Good One?
To the OP.. I tried for years to get ASCAP and BMI to set up musician/dj licensing simply to protect the cover artists and dj's from legal action in the event the venue was not current on their licensing. ASCAP did actually look into it but too many people wanted a major piece of the pie to make it feasible. Very similar to what you proposed and makes sense for karaoke as well. It made enough sense to them to continue pursuing it. The Help license makes sense if you are doing steady gigs that require SC product. It does not make sense if you are not doing steady gigs. In that case an Audit might be preferable with real disks if you have a large alternate library like I have amassed and only need a handful of SC tunes.. Even better would be a way to Unlock x number of individual SC tunes once, similar to the CB registration (except CB reg requires the disks), similar to buying them from KV. The very sad reality from my perspective is this: While I am still collecting disks and buying downloads, I am discovering more and more just how many KJs don't own a single one!!!!! At least I can walk into a venue and say "I may not have SC but I do OWN these, here's the list, here's the pics, here's the CB reggie, no legal hassles for your venue". I guess a lot of KJs really don't think about the venues and the possibility they could cause them to close and in turn cost them work....or worse. That reminds me I have to add a new load of CB's to my reggie

Author:	The Lone Ranger [ Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Bad Idea Becomes A Good One?
JimHarrington wrote: Our analysis indicates that the demand for these licenses is almost completely inelastic to price at the range we charge. We could not get 50,000 hosts to sign up for $10 a month, much less $50. The only thing that pushes most hosts to pay the license fee is the threat that we will sue them and their venues if they don't get licensed. Once that threat happens, they come around, and they do so whether the price is $50 or $420. Why do you keep going back to the price and logistics of the problem Jim? You have proved that it can be done that is not the question. The question that was posed to me years ago was if such a solution is morale or not? I see it as a practical solution if the price is right and it would cover all materials a host may use in his show. The reason you can't sell the license without the threat of legal action is something, but what I'm getting at is why such a program is ok now? It wasn't years ago because the legal hosts felt that it was amnesty and that the pirate hosts would still be out there competing for whatever work was available. That it is rewarding the bad guys at the expense of the good guys. What has changed to make something that was morally unacceptable into being acceptable? P.S. Jim how do you know you couldn't get more hosts to sign on for even $10.00, did you ever try it? I think many hosts would pay $10.00 a month just to not have you lurking around, don't you?

Author:	MtnKaraoke [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:08 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A Bad Idea Becomes A Good One?
This is not a case of a bad idea becomes a good one. This is a case of an idea like "universal license" (which was discussed and discarded) being compared to something similar, but fundamentally different This is a case of a "specific license" which covers a *specific* product. Any individual with rudimentary comprehension can understand that there were, in fact, several comments concerned with logistics and financial matters. That being said, I don't agree with your premise that the original idea has been turned into a "good" one. It was always about: Why should pirates be able to access material that they did not pay for? The new idea puts a price on it... that doesn't mean I have to like it. The Lone Ranger wrote: What has changed to make something that was morally unacceptable into being acceptable? Nothing. It has not changed.

Author:	The Lone Ranger [ Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Bad Idea Becomes A Good One?
MtnKaraoke wrote: This is not a case of a bad idea becomes a good one. This is a case of an idea like "universal license" (which was discussed and discarded) being compared to something similar, but fundamentally different This is a case of a "specific license" which covers a *specific* product. Any individual with rudimentary comprehension can understand that there were, in fact, several comments concerned with logistics and financial matters. That being said, I don't agree with your premise that the original idea has been turned into a "good" one. It was always about: Why should pirates be able to access material that they did not pay for? The new idea puts a price on it... that doesn't mean I have to like it. The Lone Ranger wrote: What has changed to make something that was morally unacceptable into being acceptable? Nothing. It has not changed. It has changed somewhat by SC lending a respectable aura to the former pirate host through licensing. I disagree with you on it is not the same type of plan. Whether it is a universal operator's license or a specific product license the end result it the same the host aka operator has the legal right to use the product commercially, for profit. Of course in both cases that just let's the KJ off the hook concerning the license issuer from coming after them legally. The original copyright holder can still sue them, the publishers.

Author:	screamersusa [ Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A Bad Idea Becomes A Good One?
I took a look at the new HELP pricing. My area is listed in the Denver Market even though I am 50 miles away from the city limits. The average KJ here considers $100.00 in a bar A GOOD PAYING GIG!!!!!! (that's an owner operator not a hired gun running someone else's system) Bands here don't even make $75.00 a person. The money just isn't here but it's listed in a big city market. Go figure. Here you have to OWN your content or it is not worth doing. I don't see how a help licensing scheme makes sense in my area and I'm sure many others. Buying content from companies like KV makes much more sense while hoping some of the SC only tunes get relicensed and re released by other manus.

Author:	The Lone Ranger [ Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Bad Idea Becomes A Good One?
screamersusa wrote: I took a look at the new HELP pricing. My area is listed in the Denver Market even though I am 50 miles away from the city limits. The average KJ here considers $100.00 in a bar A GOOD PAYING GIG!!!!!! (that's an owner operator not a hired gun running someone else's system) Bands here don't even make $75.00 a person. The money just isn't here but it's listed in a big city market. Go figure. Here you have to OWN your content or it is not worth doing. I don't see how a help licensing scheme makes sense in my area and I'm sure many others. Buying content from companies like KV makes much more sense while hoping some of the SC only tunes get relicensed and re released by other manus. It's all relative what used to be considered peanuts in this industry is a GOOD PAYING GIG!!!!!! Many would say it is the pirate that has caused it. The money just isn't there anymore, I don't care if you are playing in public or in private clubs. The only thing that still commands a high price are private parties, and Weddings which in my opinion should be done in the DJ format. The reason Jim can't get his gold plated price for his HELP license is there would be not meat left on the bone for the host. It is a terrible thing when two dogs are fighting over the same meat on the same bone.

Author:	jdmeister [ Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Bad Idea Becomes A Good One?
On a related issue, shopping malls are the next big crash. The business plan has been, build a hundred brick and mortar stores, lease them to some smucks, include a cut of the revenue stream as partial pay on the lease. Essentially, they become your partner, sharing the fruits of your hard sales labor. Shopping Malls have been "Under Water" for years.. I say, bend over and grab your ankles.. or as they say in the military, BOHICA..

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Author:	JimHarrington [ Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A Bad Idea Becomes A Good One?
The Lone Ranger wrote: screamersusa wrote: I took a look at the new HELP pricing. My area is listed in the Denver Market even though I am 50 miles away from the city limits. The average KJ here considers $100.00 in a bar A GOOD PAYING GIG!!!!!! (that's an owner operator not a hired gun running someone else's system) Bands here don't even make $75.00 a person. The money just isn't here but it's listed in a big city market. Go figure. Here you have to OWN your content or it is not worth doing. I don't see how a help licensing scheme makes sense in my area and I'm sure many others. Buying content from companies like KV makes much more sense while hoping some of the SC only tunes get relicensed and re released by other manus. It's all relative what used to be considered peanuts in this industry is a GOOD PAYING GIG!!!!!! Many would say it is the pirate that has caused it. The money just isn't there anymore, I don't care if you are playing in public or in private clubs. The only thing that still commands a high price are private parties, private clubs and Weddings which in my opinion should be done in the DJ format. The reason Jim can't get his gold plated price for his HELP license is there would be not meat left on the bone for the host. It is a terrible thing when two dogs are fighting over the same meat on the same bone. I'm impressed. You must really have to work hard to misunderstand things so badly. KJs are more than happy to use the product. They want to use it. They don't want to pay for it, and most of them won't pay for it until they believe we're going to come after then for stealing it... Then they pay.

Author:	southernsounds4u [ Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A Bad Idea Becomes A Good One?
What happens in 5 or 10 years when or if PEP decides to sell their brands, to the people that purchased PEP's licensing agreements for SC or CB ? Will someone else come in a say they are null and void ? Kind of like what happened to people that bought CB & SC disc but now are being told they can't media shift a product they purchased legally. Just curious.

Author:	The Lone Ranger [ Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:08 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A Bad Idea Becomes A Good One?
JimHarrington wrote: I'm impressed. You must really have to work hard to misunderstand things so badly. KJs are more than happy to use the product. They want to use it. They don't want to pay for it, and most of them won't pay for it until they believe we're going to come after then for stealing it... Then they pay. Oh Jim I think it is you who misunderstands things so badly. I never used your product myself, I never wanted to use it, because using your product puts your foot in the door to controlling my business. Not only do you want a cut, you want to tell me how to use the product in my show, talk about control freaks. With paying you a hefty fee there is not enough meat left on the bone for a host in these tough times. Let's face facts your company is no longer making new product. You are a business in business to use your company plan of suits drives sales. I think more hosts would sign on to HELP if your demands were more reasonable. One thing is for sure this HELP program is a Amnesty plan one that most legit hosts are opposed to, at least they used to be.