Karaoke Forums

Under this new system is a kj allowed to use his red logo backups if he goes back to cdg disks?

There isn't a defined new system. It's the wild west. There are no established rules, only grey areas waiting to be defined though legal action.

What is a "red logo backup?" Do you mean can you keep your original disk as the backup, and use burned copies in your shows? As long as you have bought and paid for licensed, original disk, you are fine.

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C Mc
KJ, FL

I don't understand your question.

An operator who uses CDG discs can use the CDG discs.

If you want to use "backups," regardless of the medium, you need to have a license.

Red Logo vs Blue Logo = Original issued SC CDGs (Power Picks, SpotLight Series, Artist Series, etc...) vs GEM Series.

So now you're saying that using a burned copy (back-up) of an original CDG (as long as the KJ owns the original, and is not using the original) is no longer acceptable either (unless one pays the HELP Program's monthly fees)?

That's the way I read his statement.

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Music speaks to the heart in ways words cannot express.

Well if that is indeed the case, looks like this will affect Joe after all, as I believe he has admitted to using burned backups before.

Course going back to playing the actual disc isn't as big of a hassle and having to go back from a computer to a CDG player.

*lol*

I would think practically, it's still all about the 1 to 1. If the guy has one rig, and is playing archive copies to preserve the condition of his original copies, he's fine. If asked to produce the 1 to 1 licences copies of his discs, he can do so easily, and that's that.

He might be subject to some hassle, but in the end, he's not going to be prosecuted for anything.

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C Mc
KJ, FL

This is what I HOPE Sound Choice decides to do.

The way i see it, they used to sue people and when the named someone in a lawsuit, if they could prove 1-1, they were dropped. I am hoping that is exactly what happens here in that they will actually focus on people who can't prove 1-1 instead of harassing folks that actually have the discs.

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-Chris

but 1:1 is no longer an issue or even a criteria.
using it at all on computer is.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

No, James stated plainly it's SC's position that anyone using copies needs a license. A copy is a copy. You must put your irreplaceable discs at risk or pay.

Absolutely false. The LAW is that a disc user can make single site backups - unshifted on discs for sure, and use them on that site, whether SC likes it or not. SC has no say in that matter at all. No additional fees or even permission by SC or any other company required. That's precedent was set in the 20th century software wars and remains today.

I could use all of my backup discs to run my show and there is not a dam thing any karaoke company can do about it it. I run my originals ONLY because they look more professional.

Sorry Jim, but "regardless of media" is not going to fly, though I understand your attempt.

As for affecting me: Even if Jim's attempt were true ( and it's not), none of my backups ( and with the JFJ resurfacer I only have to use a couple - 5 or 6 out of 2,000 discs or more) are SC. The few SC discs that I have ( 50 or so, maybe?) Simply haven't been used enough to have acquired that kind of wear. DK would be another story....

Also, since some discs were never licensed by SC in the first place ( SC8338 comes to mind) i would be very careful of bothering disc based hosts in the first place if I were SC. Suing over a track or disc that was never licensed for production, yet sold by that producer to said host in the first place could get a little.....sticky. SC can't seem to get it done against PC hosts. Suing over a backup made by an Original Manufacturers' Disc based host ( no way to prove any damages at all) using LAWFULLY MADE backups for their original use (not piracy or site duplication - I'm a single op) would be downright moronic. On the other hand, nothing surprises me any more.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

For home use only, not professional/commercial use.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Half right. ALL karaoke is for home use only. There is no licensing available for pro usage yet.


That's just karaoke. Non shifted backups of ANY original media or legal for whatever purpose the original was meant. Corporate accounting software, for instance.

In other words, the law in regard to making backups is universal - not limited to home use.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

That's what ascap/bmi etc are for. So everything is for home use until the clubs pay the fees.
And if you are making money from it regardless of licensing or not, then it is now no longer home use anyway.


Alot of software DO allow backups for pro use. Different animal


Nope!

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Let's see some citations.

(I know you won't provide them; I've asked numerous times before, and you've always declined, probably because there aren't any.)

Actually not being a lawyer, I could be wrong.. But I believe what Joe is confusing is that their at at least two groups of rights here. The rights of the original publishers/music companies, which ARE covered for commercial use thru organizations such as BMI, ASCAP *i forget the third* and SOCAN in Canada.

What is NOT covered are the rights that belong to the creator of the muical work and the tradmark that is attached to that work? Am I close?

-James

I think what Joe C. is confusing is what is stated within the Copyright laws for Fair Usage. Copies are not permitted commercially in the Fair Use laws. There are a few exceptions (which apply to Non-Profit organizations and Schools).

Jim's right, I do have a tendency to ignore his requests- as he ignores mine.

He's the lawyer. Let him post the the prohibition by LAW of making backups. OR feel free to report me to the authorities for those that I have made, since they - in his opinion - would be illegal.. Hey, it would be a great way to shut me up, right?

Also, to note once again, lest the same steaming pile be brought up again: NOWHERE on the SC labels does it say that one is not allowed to make a backup ( no copies allowed). It SAYS "No UNAUTHORIZED duplication". A HUGE difference. For instance, a duplicate backup for single site use is authorized ( go ahead and show differently Jim), whereas duplication for distribution or mult-site use is not. No definition of "authorized" is given or implied. Now, not that I care about PC use, but a question arises: If a specific type of backup ( say... a media shift to PC) were not to be allowed, than one would assume that a change would have been made on the later labels- if SC had the authority to do so....

That aside, I'm not confusing anything in regard to BMI, but am passing on what they POST ON THEIR SITE. BMI/ASCAP only cover the music, not the sync.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

17 USC 106:
Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following: (1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords ... .

17 USC 501(a):
Anyone who violates any of the exclusive rights of the copyright owner as provided by sections 106 through 122 or of the author as provided in section 106A (a), or who imports copies or phonorecords into the United States in violation of section 602, is an infringer of the copyright or right of the author, as the case may be.

17 USC 1114(1):
Any person who shall, without the consent of the registrant—
(a) use in commerce any reproduction ... of a registered mark in connection with the sale, offering for sale, distribution, or advertising of any goods or services on or in connection with which such use is likely to cause confusion, or to cause mistake, or to deceive ... shall be liable in a civil action by the registrant for the remedies hereinafter provided.

Similar language appears in 17 USC 1125(a).

I've shown you mine. Now it's time for you to show me yours.



If you're at the airport, and you see a door marked "No unauthorized personnel," does that mean you can go through that door without consequences just because they didn't include a definition of "unauthorized" on the door?

Of course not.

The warning on the discs is as follows: THIS MATERIAL IS PROTECTED BY FEDERAL COPYRIGHT LAWS. UNAUTHORIZED DUPLICATION, PUBLIC PERFORMANCE, OR BROADCAST IS A VIOLATION OF APPLICABLE LAWS. THESE ARE PROFESSIONAL RE-CREATIONS AND NOT RENDITIONS BY THE ORIGINAL ARTIST.

Nothing in the law requires SC or any other copyright owner to put anyone on notice that unauthorized duplication is a violation of the Copyright Act. The SC discs carry that warning because (a) it's helpful information and creates the knowledge necessary to show willful infringement, and (b) the music publishers require it. Either would be a sufficient justification, of course.

If you think you have the right to reproduce these discs "for single-site use," point to the authority that says so. "Some cases in the '90s" isn't sufficient, and it's your proposition; you defend it.

Both of "mine" are the same, and you have ignored it throughout your post. The word "authorized". Nothing above states that one cannot make ANY copies, only that one cannot make UNAUTHORIZED copies. In some cases "Unauthorized" and "authorized" are implied by law, in some cases not. At no time were the parameters of "authorized" and "unauthorized" defined with the purchased SC disc, either on the label or the CD holder. Only that "Unauthorized" copies are disallowed. Coming up with a desired set of parameters AFTER PURCHASE won't cut it in court, and you haven't proven otherwise there. Sure didn't happen in Oregon.


Also, two of the above refer to COPYRIGHT laws. SC sues for TRADEMARK INFRINGEMENT- that is, the display of the logo/trade dress- not content. The third may be relevant, but not neccesarily germaine to this situation. The "..." between "of a" and "reproduction" being filled in, may help - or hinder- but I admit you have something to play with - technically. Unfortunately, "technically" and "real world" are two different things.

As stated earlier, were a civil suit to be brought against an Original Mfr. Disc based host for making and using backups it would be dismissed out of hand. The OMD host can disprove any accusations of piracy (track theft) of all discs simply because he HAS them. No damages can be proven. Also, holding the original and the backup of a disc that was never licensed for production or distribution in his hand, said Karaoke Host might ask the judge how such a suit might be filed referencing the KJ's use of a disc that was legally purchased from the company that produced and sold it without any permission to do so.

I believe that, in the real world, a judge might be swayed for the defendant.

Of course, I think much of this is moot. Even I know that SC tries not to drag disc based hosts to court- at least in regard to their current case model. I know that this can change as other things have, but I just don't see the financial benefit for SC/Phoenix to do it....maybe other reasons....

DISCLAIMER: I am but a humble layman, and my statements above are but a clarification of my own opinions. Nothing more. Until SC proves otherwise in court, I stand by them.

Also, please note that in my clarification I am ONLY referencing DISC TO DISC backups. Media shifted backups may or may not follow suit, but I believe that this is still such a gray area that I would not even attempt a guess in that regard. Also, media shifting was never part of the equation back during the software wars. This is why I said that the whole media shifting question must be permanently and perfectly clarified by law ( not ANY karaoke production company) soon. If not, the industry will drag to a standstill.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."