Karaoke Forums

http://www.rfcexpress.com/lawsuits/copy ... l/summary/

I haven't paid to read all of this but found it interesting that Sony seems to be hitting everyone.

A few the manu's mentioned:Mr. Entertainer, Music Factory, Music Maestro, SBI, Sundown Karaoke, Sunfly, Tropical Zone, Zoom, Mr. Entertainer, Music Factory,

Maybe some of the no fly list still being sold?

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

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-- Mark

No it is all songs not just some no fly list tracks.

The issue is that resellers are supposed to re licence the tracks in order to sell in the USA and Canada, this was not done. Yes the tracks from those companies were originally licensed with PRS in the UK but PRS licencing specifically excludes The USA and Canada.

We decided to purchase the complaint off PACER and uploaded it for you all to read.

I'm glad we never downloaded anything! See page 12, paragraph #36...

http://www.pdf-archive.com/2014/10/07/d ... -10-01-14/

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-- Mark

Thanks for posting InsaneKJ, Now everyone can read the entire document

You are welcome.

Now everyone can

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-- Mark

Here is my take on it.

First of all, the first 8 or so pages are completely irrelivant, because to the best of my knowledge, Tricerasoft is not making karaoke tracks *unless they own the karaoke2go tracks that are sold on the site, i don't know.

Second, if the karaoke companies like Zoom and SBI are licensing directly from the music publishers as people like Joe from Zoom has claimed, then that means the actual karaoke works are no longer the property of the original music publisher *ie Sony*

The current laws in the UK are considerably more favourable toward the ownership of audiovisual works. To the best of my knowledge, what it boils down to is that they own their karaoke works, lock stock and barrel.

If that is true, then Sony has absolutely no claim

Not being a lawyer however, it is entirely possible I am wrong. The point being, I am withholding final judgement until a judgement is actually rendered.

However, i do think I will use up my credits as quickly as possible

While I agree with the statements made by Joe from Zoom saying they are licensing with the publishers the kicker is they also specifically exclude download sales to the USA and Canada, therefore the tracks are unlicensed. Any manufacture procuring licensing under the mandatory licensing in the UK can legally sell to anyone except the USA and Canada.... for a manufacture or reseller to offer those tracks without repurchasing licenses here is illegal per the IP laws now in effect here
in the USA.

Easy way to remember this :
UK / PRS licensing is operated on a opt out basis... publishers must file paperwork to prevent tracks from being made.... rates are preset with no negotiation
USA licensing is opt in basis..... publishers must agree to a track before it is made at whatever cost they want.

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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

Any licensing obtained DIRECTLY from the publishers would HAVE to include the US and Canda, otherwise they would have absolutely NO REASON to deal with the music publishers, they could just get the licenses they need thru the MCPS/PRS.

Maybe I'll have to contact Joe directly and get him to clarify, but my understanding is they are now getting licenses to sell to the US and Canda DIRECTLY FROM THE MUSIC PRODUCERS.

My understanding of the law there *which i'll admit is very limited* is once an audiovisual work is licensed, it becomes a completely new work, which the master rights of which belong to the licensee *in this example Zoom*

In otherwords it works EXACTLY like music does in the US and Canda, which is as it should be.

If i am right, Sony has no claim.

If I am wrong, well then Mr. Marcos is in a lot of trouble.

Only time will tell tho

-James

I think a real storm is brewing as it says on page 12 #36 they were informed it was illegal and continued...I would love to see input directly from Joe at Zoom, and owners at Mr Entertainer and Sunfly as I happen to enjoy the products they are putting out.And no any licensing from the publishers would not HAVE to cover the USA and Canada.... the specific exclusions were added to PRS and other UK licensing a few years ago. A contract can contain anything both parties agree to.

I am happy to see Sony/EMI is not going after those companies.... and I would consider purchasing downloads directly from them but as we know they pulled out of the download market when select-a-track was blocked then Selectkaraoke suddenly appeared doing its best to look like select-a-track.

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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

Athena you're missing the point entirely.. They are NOT getting their licensing from the rights agencies in the UK.. They are getting their licensing from the MUSIC PUBLISHERS. They are two completely separate entities. The rights societies in the UK are COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT TO THIS ISSUE..

So again I ask, what is the point of going directly to the publishers, unless it is to secure rights to sell to the US and Canada?

The difference between North America and the UK is that if I pay for the rights to make a karaoke work here in North America, there is no law that makes that a NEW work, as there is for music.

In the UK, there is.. Since the tracks were made in the UK, that law should apply.

Think about it - all of Beethoven's music is in the public domain, that means I don't need anyone's permission to record, perform or otherwise do pretty much anything with that music. But if I want to preform Beethoven's 5th as performed by the London Symphony Orchestra, I have to buy the sheet music, and get there permission to record it. Why? because that composition is considered a completely new work



If that is indeed the way karaoke works in the UK then that means that the ONLY way Sony would have a claim is if Zoom et al specifically signed a contract stating that they did not own the digital rights to there tracks in the US and Canada, which would be pretty silly in my opinion.

I'll talk to Joe myself and see what he has to say.

I'm not precluding the idea of being entirely wrong, just being stubborn until all the facts are in.

-James

Jclayton, I am not trying to argue with you. I am restating what the legal documents say. I would certainly hope that Joe from Zoom was not misleading anyone .....I personally have not seen Joe from zoom state they were buying worldwide licensing but that does not mean he did not. I question the validity however because Zoom, Sunfly , Mr Entertainer will not allow direct purchases of downloads to USA KJ's but any KJ in the UK, Australia ect are not blocked from purchasing those downloads from sites owned by those manufactures. I recently tried to purchase a 25 disc package from zoom that was advertised on Zooms FB page..and was advised they could not ship them to the USA, now I possibly could change my IP address , get a credit card issued in the UK and buy downloads from them...... If he had in fact purchased licensing directly from the publishers that was worldwide why would these disc packages be restricted?

This discussion made me go over to zooms FB and do some reading. the jukebox series they were selling on eBay would only ship to the UK, and they posted a notice that all newest volumes (volume 23 onwards pop hits) will no longer be offered on disc and sending people to the Select-a-track site to order customs..... Select -a-track blocks sales to the USA and Canada also... why would they turn away money IF they did have worldwide rights from the publishers?

On August 8th zoom offered 20 artist discs for 30 pounds including taxes... the ad itself states we can not ship to the US. All of this would lead me to assume that even with Joe negotiating directly with the publishers the USA is excluded from the licensing otherwise he would be racking in the big bucks selling to all us KJ's how have very little access to new songs of quality.

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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

By the way folks. Give Athena and the rest of the sharp stick carriers a nice pat on the back. They have been talking about the sleeping giants for a few years now, all the while poking those same giants with said sharp sticks and doing everything they can to wake them up.

This is what happens when people go poking their noses into things that should better be left alone.

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-Chris

Asking for answers from those who have the ability to actually answer them is not poking them with sticks.... it is being proactive instead of reactive. I am PROUD that I kept communicating with those who own the rights...I am PROUD that I attempted to warn all the other KJ's and I am PROUD that in my small way I made a difference.

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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

Answer just this ONE question -

What positive difference have you made in the karaoke industry - that benefits all of us - as a result of you calling the manufacturers?

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-Chris

Passion is great when it has a positive affect not just an aggrandizing one.

As much as I find Athena's actions mis-guided and inappropriate, I doubt she had anything at all to do with this. The big boys have been overly active in all the non traditional areas, streaming and karaoke being among them. If anything stirred the pot, it was SC's path to securing the GEM. I don't hold that against SC and I do not blame them, but that was quite the deal they pulled off. All this re-affirms that we need IP reform in this country in the worst kind of way.

I don't believe that any one party caused this to happen, but every little bit hurts.