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How much are Kurt and James pocketing?
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Author:  chrisavis [ Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:26 am ]
Post subject:  How much are Kurt and James pocketing?
The Lone Ranger seems to think that the Sound Choice lawsuits are only being used to line the pockets of Kurt and Jim.

So here are some specific questions to The Lone Ranger -

How much money do you think *Kurt* personally makes from the lawsuits?
How much money do you think *James* personally makes from the lawsuits?

You do not need to be specific to the penny, just a nice round number to the 1000's will be fine. But I would really like you to give an actual dollar amount. This is important because you have repeated this idea they are "lining their pockets" several times now. I want to know what this means to you so we can compare and contrast than against what it means to us.

-Chris
Author:  The Lone Ranger [ Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How much are Kurt and James pocketing?
chrisavis wrote:
The Lone Ranger seems to think that the Sound Choice lawsuits are only being used to line the pockets of Kurt and Jim.

So here are some specific questions to The Lone Ranger -

How much money do you think *Kurt* personally makes from the lawsuits?
How much money do you think *James* personally makes from the lawsuits?

You do not need to be specific to the penny, just a nice round number to the 1000's will be fine. But I would really like you to give an actual dollar amount. This is important because you have repeated this idea they are "lining their pockets" several times now. I want to know what this means to you so we can compare and contrast than against what it means to us.



-Chris




8) You know and I know Chris an actual dollar amount would be hard to come by, since the out of court settlements which are the bulk of the wins, are not matters of public record. I think a safe place to start would be the $5,000.00 amount of the average out of court settlements in California, or the fair retail value established in the Panama City Florida case. If we were to take that amount and times it by the 1,000 cases settled I think a fair estimate would be somewhere within the 300,000 to 500,000 range for a total. Minus of course what ever the legal costs needed to recover such an amount. It is not the actual dollar amount of the settlement that is important. It is the fear factor involved with the suits, "suits drive sales". That is where the real money is made hosts licensing the product before the ax falls. The trouble is with so few suits settled it would seem this marketing plan is not working so well. Part of the amount could also by estimated by how much money APS and Donna Boris were supposed to have ripped off Kurt and company, wasn't the amount somewhere between 230,000 and 250,000.00? Isn't that what SC is suing for? At one time APS was the sole legal rep for SC wasn't it?
Author:  Insane KJ [ Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How much are Kurt and James pocketing?
chrisavis wrote:

So here are some specific questions to The Lone Ranger -

How much money do you think *Kurt* personally makes from the lawsuits?
How much money do you think *James* personally makes from the lawsuits?



I knew the Troll couldn't answer your simple questions on what they make "personally" Chris.

I hope he does go away for good after he retires from the biz at the end of this month.
Author:  The Lone Ranger [ Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How much are Kurt and James pocketing?
8) You are not even a real host, you want others to make full disclosure and you are still hiding under your trick or treat suit. Oh well Halloween is coming up. Maybe Kurt will tell you the amount so Chris won't have to wonder. You don't know the answer either, it is not a matter of public record. I can give an estimate that seems reasonable at least to me. You can't even do that.
Author:  chrisavis [ Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How much are Kurt and James pocketing?
The Lone Ranger wrote:
If we were to take that amount and times it by the 1,000 cases settled I think a fair estimate would be somewhere within the 300,000 to 500,000 range for a total.


The Lone Ranger wrote:
The trouble is with so few suits settled it would seem this marketing plan is not working so well.


Wait a damn minute. You guess 1000 cases are settled, which IMO would be a BIG win and is hardly a trivial number, then you say "with so few suits settled". Which is it? You are a cornucopia of double-talk.


The Lone Ranger wrote:
It is not the actual dollar amount of the settlement that is important.


I don't believe you even know your position. I have 5 quotes below that are all about the money.....

The Lone Ranger wrote:
I oppose it because it is wrong, it is not working, and the only goal is to line yours and Kurt's pockets.


and this...

The Lone Ranger wrote:
Not so much surprise Paradigm just weariness and disgust with this whole legal process. It is not going to solve the problem of piracy, it's only purpose is the line the pockets of basically two manus.


and this...

The Lone Ranger wrote:
They are merely lining the pockets of whomever is in control of the trademark at the time


and this...

The Lone Ranger wrote:
I would think that any host worth his salt would resist any company that perverts the legal system to line their pockets at the host's expense.


and this...

The Lone Ranger wrote:
SC is hurting a whole industry just to try and line their own pockets greed to the tenth power.


There is nothing in your statements about fear. Only money and how it is going to Kurt and James.

I am not asking for an exact amount. I am asking for an estimation. I believe your estimation of 1000 settled suits is on the high side. Even though settlements aren't disclosed, I think it is safe to say that based on the Sound Choice site where they list GEM owners, there are way less than 1000 GEM folks. I imagine anyone one who gets a GEM - regardless of whether they purchased it willingly or obtained it via a settlement - would want to be listed there. But there are only 219 listed. I know the list is 100% accurate because I am not on the GEM list though I am in the certified KJ list. But even if we add ALL of the lists together, and give a margin of error of 10%, there are still less than 500. That cuts you estimate in half or more.

Subtract the legal fees, the cost to produce the GEM set, the cost to ship, and misc fees and we are down in the 5 figure range. Divide that in 1/2 between Kurt and James and neither one is buying a Lamborghini any time soon.

And please stop trying to divert the conversation by bringing up Boris and other unrelated matters. If anything, that shores up my position because for any number of small wins, a larger loss will wipe it out.

Prove your point of Kurt and Jim lining their pockets. Do it with some facts or at least some solid anecdotal evidence or shut up about it.

-Chris
Author:  JimHarrington [ Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How much are Kurt and James pocketing?
There are only two people who know the answer to the question, and neither of us is saying.

But I can tell you that I'm not "lining my pockets." I earn the money I make for this work. I would be offended by the implication that I don't, except that I consider the source. I'm going to have to put him on "ignore," though, or my eyes are going to stick in a permanent roll.
Author:  earthling12357 [ Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How much are Kurt and James pocketing?
chrisavis wrote:
I am not asking for an exact amount. I am asking for an estimation.

I don't really care about how much income these suits are generating, but the potential is enormous which is why they are pursuing it.
While they will not tell you, nor should they, there is court documentation that you can use to extrapolate your own figures:
CAVS VS Slep-Tone
Case No. CV 11-05574
January 17, 2012
Docket No. 8
Page 6
Lines 5-7
"The lawsuit names
approximately 70 California defendants and has so far resulted in
more than $180,000 in settlement payments from these defendants."
At the time of this filing around half of the defendants had been dismissed.

While I don't believe they are currently rolling in the dough, I do believe the potential for great returns is evident.
Author:  The Lone Ranger [ Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How much are Kurt and James pocketing?
chrisavis wrote:
The Lone Ranger wrote:
If we were to take that amount and times it by the 1,000 cases settled I think a fair estimate would be somewhere within the 300,000 to 500,000 range for a total.


The Lone Ranger wrote:
The trouble is with so few suits settled it would seem this marketing plan is not working so well.


Wait a damn minute. You guess 1000 cases are settled, which IMO would be a BIG win and is hardly a trivial number, then you say "with so few suits settled". Which is it? You are a cornucopia of double-talk.


The Lone Ranger wrote:
It is not the actual dollar amount of the settlement that is important.


I don't believe you even know your position. I have 5 quotes below that are all about the money.....

The Lone Ranger wrote:
I oppose it because it is wrong, it is not working, and the only goal is to line yours and Kurt's pockets.


and this...

The Lone Ranger wrote:
Not so much surprise Paradigm just weariness and disgust with this whole legal process. It is not going to solve the problem of piracy, it's only purpose is the line the pockets of basically two manus.


and this...

The Lone Ranger wrote:
They are merely lining the pockets of whomever is in control of the trademark at the time


and this...

The Lone Ranger wrote:
I would think that any host worth his salt would resist any company that perverts the legal system to line their pockets at the host's expense.


and this...

The Lone Ranger wrote:
SC is hurting a whole industry just to try and line their own pockets greed to the tenth power.


There is nothing in your statements about fear. Only money and how it is going to Kurt and James.

I am not asking for an exact amount. I am asking for an estimation. I believe your estimation of 1000 settled suits is on the high side. Even though settlements aren't disclosed, I think it is safe to say that based on the Sound Choice site where they list GEM owners, there are way less than 1000 GEM folks. I imagine anyone one who gets a GEM - regardless of whether they purchased it willingly or obtained it via a settlement - would want to be listed there. But there are only 219 listed. I know the list is 100% accurate because I am not on the GEM list though I am in the certified KJ list. But even if we add ALL of the lists together, and give a margin of error of 10%, there are still less than 500. That cuts you estimate in half or more.

Subtract the legal fees, the cost to produce the GEM set, the cost to ship, and misc fees and we are down in the 5 figure range. Divide that in 1/2 between Kurt and James and neither one is buying a Lamborghini any time soon.

And please stop trying to divert the conversation by bringing up Boris and other unrelated matters. If anything, that shores up my position because for any number of small wins, a larger loss will wipe it out.

Prove your point of Kurt and Jim lining their pockets. Do it with some facts or at least some solid anecdotal evidence or shut up about it.

-Chris


8) Chris the 1,000 suits settled and 100 cases as I recall is the number thrown out by Jim who represents SC. Even at this level when you consider the total number of hosts is approaching around 50,000, and there has been a 10% increase in the total number of hosts, this whole legal process has been a net loser. When put that in perspective, the impact of the legal process so far has been trivial. Today there are more illegal hosts than when the legal process started. If the goal of the process is not recovery then why proceed with it? There is no reason unless both Kurt and Jim stand to profit from it. Boris is a related matter since both APS and Donna had exclusive rights to represent SC until they were found to be unworthy of SC's trust. The amount APS is being sued for represents part of the money that should have gone to Kurt and Jim. The real money is not going to be recovered by the legal process, but rather by the sales that the legal process is supposed to drive. It is not the normal sales pitch that drives the sale, but rather the threat of legal action that drives sales. If there is no pay day then there is no reason for the legal process in the first place. If all host were to subscribe to Cloud that would amount to over a quarter of a billion dollars over 10 years. 50,000 hosts times 99.00 per month times 120 months, do the math. Now we are talking some real money. That is why the legal process even if it breaks even is pushed, it is hoped it will generate sales, to two failing manus.
Author:  The Lone Ranger [ Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How much are Kurt and James pocketing?
HarringtonLaw wrote:
There are only two people who know the answer to the question, and neither of us is saying.

But I can tell you that I'm not "lining my pockets." I earn the money I make for this work. I would be offended by the implication that I don't, except that I consider the source. I'm going to have to put him on "ignore," though, or my eyes are going to stick in a permanent roll.


8) Come on Jim the more you recover the more you and Kurt make, it all depends on if you can get the average host to buy into your scam or not. All they are really paying for is the right to display the SC logo that is all you own. The track content is owned by the publishers even your cheer leading squad over at the Free Forum have acknowledged that fact. If you aren't making any money off this whole legal process then what are you doing still representing SC, you don't have any other clients?
Author:  chrisavis [ Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How much are Kurt and James pocketing?
Well folks, I think I have made my point.

-Chris
Author:  Cueball [ Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How much are Kurt and James pocketing?
The Lone Ranger wrote:
even over at the Free Forum
Would you please stop referring to the Free Forum when having discussions here (in this Forum)? Not everyone is a member of (or reads) every other Karaoke forum out there.
Author:  The Lone Ranger [ Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How much are Kurt and James pocketing?
chrisavis wrote:
Well folks, I think I have made my point.

-Chris


8) The point is Chris there is no point to this whole legal dog and pony show unless, some how some way, the person or persons bringing these frivolous lawsuits stand to gain monetarily. The primary reason to conduct the legal process is recovery, isn't it? While it is impossible to know exactly the dollar amount that has been recovered, it is pretty safe to a assume after four years it has been less than a million dollars. After deducting the legal expenses and the money allegedly stolen by APS the amount has been further reduced. Some of the money would have to gone back to lawyer Jim, or why would he continue to represent Kurt? The amount recovered so far is small and with only 100 cases and 1,000 hosts and venues settled, it would appear the legal process is not a gold mine. It is the threat of the legal process where the real profit potential lies. It is convincing the karaoke hosts that it is in their best interests to pay off SC and PR in order to conduct their business. That they should treat such an arrangement as merely the cost of doing business. The amnesty program offered by SC and PR is not going to help the average former legal host, since it will legalize the pirates and still have them out there competing with the hosts this legal process was supposed to help. I know but the legal process manus are our friends. Yeah right.
Author:  MrBoo [ Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How much are Kurt and James pocketing?
What Kurt and James actually get out of this is pretty much secondary. For me, it's what did they intend to get out of this when they started and I believe they had some very big eyes. It doesn't look like that is going to pan out so they will probably be relegated to getting whatever they can until enough holes are shot in this trademark thing.

Here's the real deal for me. Kurt is stuck with an aging library and I would assume very little options in issuing new discs from that library when inventory is out. He settled on a pro business model that is all or nothing, in a market loaded with customers who already bought the product and are not interested. The other segment of the market has the product illegally so they are the target. It's my opinion that very few in this segment would have invested in their products had their not been an ultra cheep alternative. Thus, pretty much no one would want the product. Yes, some people have moved to the library on their own and others would consider it for second rigs so I am not saying this model is worthless. So they NEED people out their with those drives. That's the only market this can sustain this model.

This isn't, "cleaning up karaoke". This isn't, "helping the legit KJs". This is business, the only way possible. So if you are waiting on SC to clean up piracy in your area, you better be ready for some major disappointment. Let's face the fiddler, people; There is no silver knight on a white horse and you are going to have to deal with pirates on your own.
Author:  The Lone Ranger [ Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How much are Kurt and James pocketing?
cueball wrote:
The Lone Ranger wrote:
even over at the Free Forum
Would you please stop referring to the Free Forum when having discussions here (in this Forum)? Not everyone is a member of (or reads) every other Karaoke forum out there.



8) Sorry cue but the forums really don't want you pasting information from one to another directly or I would.
Author:  chrisavis [ Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How much are Kurt and James pocketing?
The Lone Ranger wrote:
8) The point is Chris there is no point to this whole legal dog and pony show unless, some how some way, the person or persons bringing these frivolous lawsuits stand to gain monetarily. The primary reason to conduct the legal process is recovery, isn't it? While it is impossible to know exactly the dollar amount that has been recovered, it is pretty safe to a assume after four years it has been less than a million dollars. After deducting the legal expenses and the money allegedly stolen by APS the amount has been further reduced. Some of the money would have to gone back to lawyer Jim, or why would he continue to represent Kurt? The amount recovered so far is small and with only 100 cases and 1,000 hosts and venues settled, it would appear the legal process is not a gold mine. It is the threat of the legal process where the real profit potential lies. It is convincing the karaoke hosts that it is in their best interests to pay off SC and PR in order to conduct their business. That they should treat such an arrangement as merely the cost of doing business. The amnesty program offered by SC and PR is not going to help the average former legal host, since it will legalize the pirates and still have them out there competing with the hosts this legal process was supposed to help. I know but the legal process manus are our friends. Yeah right.


The point is I have made my point that you can't maintain a position. The above paragraph basically says that you don't believe they are lining their pockets any longer. You could have just said, "I no longer believe they are lining their pockets because the math doesn't pan out". Instead, you have to throw in the fear option. Anything to avoid saying "I'm wrong" and continue your Sound Choice beat down.

-Chris
Author:  Bazza [ Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How much are Kurt and James pocketing?
Insane KJ wrote:
I hope he does go away for good after he retires from the biz at the end of this month.


You know that wont be the case. Retirees generally have MORE time on their hands. :lol:

I wouldn't be surprised if the posts double.
Author:  JimHarrington [ Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How much are Kurt and James pocketing?
MrBoo wrote:
What Kurt and James actually get out of this is pretty much secondary. For me, it's what did they intend to get out of this when they started and I believe they had some very big eyes. It doesn't look like that is going to pan out so they will probably be relegated to getting whatever they can until enough holes are shot in this trademark thing.


Generally speaking, the successes don't get reported, so it looks like all there have been are failures.

The actual picture looks very different from what you suggest.
Author:  MrBoo [ Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How much are Kurt and James pocketing?
I re-read my post and I see where it could be taken to suggest a high failure rate and that was not my intent. I do understand that many transactions occur that we never hear about and it's mostly the non-favorable SC decisions we hear about. My thought process for Jim's quoted area had everything to do with my perception of the awards (both quality and quantity) SC anticipated versus what has actually happened. I'll concede that I could be way off, but I don't think so.
Author:  The Lone Ranger [ Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How much are Kurt and James pocketing?
chrisavis wrote:
The Lone Ranger wrote:
8) The point is Chris there is no point to this whole legal dog and pony show unless, some how some way, the person or persons bringing these frivolous lawsuits stand to gain monetarily. The primary reason to conduct the legal process is recovery, isn't it? While it is impossible to know exactly the dollar amount that has been recovered, it is pretty safe to a assume after four years it has been less than a million dollars. After deducting the legal expenses and the money allegedly stolen by APS the amount has been further reduced. Some of the money would have to gone back to lawyer Jim, or why would he continue to represent Kurt? The amount recovered so far is small and with only 100 cases and 1,000 hosts and venues settled, it would appear the legal process is not a gold mine. It is the threat of the legal process where the real profit potential lies. It is convincing the karaoke hosts that it is in their best interests to pay off SC and PR in order to conduct their business. That they should treat such an arrangement as merely the cost of doing business. The amnesty program offered by SC and PR is not going to help the average former legal host, since it will legalize the pirates and still have them out there competing with the hosts this legal process was supposed to help. I know but the legal process manus are our friends. Yeah right.


The point is I have made my point that you can't maintain a position. The above paragraph basically says that you don't believe they are lining their pockets any longer. You could have just said, "I no longer believe they are lining their pockets because the math doesn't pan out". Instead, you have to throw in the fear option. Anything to avoid saying "I'm wrong" and continue your Sound Choice beat down.

-Chris





8) What I'm saying Chris is that most likely it was believed that the legal process originally would be profitable. It probably would have been if things would have gone to plan. Like any plan of action it depends on what the enemy does, that is why most battle plans fall apart after the first few days. Especially if the enemy doesn't do what is expected. When a few cases were tried and no more easy out of court settlements were forthcoming the reality of the futility of the legal process became apparent. SC's business model is flawed because it assumed they could by use of the legal process scare or leverage hosts into licensing the GEM product. The intent of the legal process was to recover money, some of that money would have found its way into Jim and Kurt's pockets, or why put out the effort? They still believe it is going to work, or at least they are going to be able to scam hosts into paying them off. They are gambling Chris and so far they are losing. The original intent of all of this legal process was, recover, that their legal position was strong, and they could prevail. If they felt otherwise why would they even bother? When the court settlements came back too small to even cover the cost, they only thing they could hope for is to run a bluff with the suits, and hope they would drive sales. If this last gambit fails then they are done.
Author:  chrisavis [ Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How much are Kurt and James pocketing?
The Lone Ranger wrote:
8) What I'm saying Chris is that most likely it was believed that the legal process originally would be profitable. It probably would have been if things would have gone to plan. Like any plan of action it depends on what the enemy does, that is why most battle plans fall apart after the first few days. Especially if the enemy doesn't do what is expected. When a few cases were tried and no more easy out of court settlements were forthcoming the reality of the futility of the legal process became apparent. SC's business model is flawed because it assumed they could by use of the legal process scare or leverage hosts into licensing the GEM product. The intent of the legal process was to recover money, some of that money would have found its way into Jim and Kurt's pockets, or why put out the effort? They still believe it is going to work, or at least they are going to be able to scam hosts into paying them off. They are gambling Chris and so far they are losing.


....and what I am saying is you could save yourself a lot of time and typing by just saying "I was wrong". Here.....let me give you something you can just cut and paste.

--snip--

I, The Lone Ranger, have no basis in proof for the claim that Sound Choice, Kurt Slep, and/or James Harrington are "lining their pockets" as a result of the Sound Choice lawsuits. I apologize for making the claim without any proof and admit that I was wrong in doing so in the first place.

--snip--

-Chris
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