Karaoke Forums

...Don't know if it's been covered here or not but I've often thought about it for the last year or so. Especially since the Karaoke Trademark Infringement cases.
...What I've often wondered is, if a Karaoke Company is no longer producing or is inactive with their Trademark, can anyone claim and register that particular Trademark?

***Here's the link that I found:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/abandonment_of_trademark

...I know I'm probably confused here but if the answer to the above question is "Yes" then does that mean anyone could claim & register an abandoned Karaoke Trademark and go after infringers, correct? Would it really be that easy?
...Quoting this one from the link: "A situation in which trademark rights are lost because the owner: does not use the mark for an extended period of time with the intent not to resume use; lets others use the mark without adequate supervision; or allows the mark to become a generic term.".... So if a Karaoke Company has been out of production and abandoned their Trademark, would that give a KJ the rights to copy or transfer a CDG to another storage device such as Hard Drive, Flash Drive, Disc, etc. without fear of infringing? I still have to believe that it's still infringing on the copyrights part of the music..... Just curious!

From what I understand Trademark, and copyright are two similar but different animals. Copyright protection is covered by the different collections agencies setup to handle that part of the problem. Trademark infringement is the foot in the door that gets SC into your karaoke business. It is next to impossible to pickup defunct karaoke manus Trademarks, even though the certified hosts keep insisting it is going to happen. These orphans, or freeware status materials, however you want to describe them, are out here and really can be used by anyone. Currently SC is the only company really trying the legal process using the Trademark infringement Trojan horse to get into the host's business. Have a blessed day.

There are many issues to register a trademark other than just claiming it. You have to show prior use in commerce, documented. There are also word only versions and graphic marks that you also have to have documented proof of creating and use. In addition, even if you started today, you'd still be 18-24 months to get final approval from the feds, if at all. You also can't just grab the graphic and MP3 files and start using them without the proper licensing. So I'd say the whole exercise would be a waste of time and money.

So are Tigers and Lions.



However: The karaoke mfr's who license their musical production from the copyright holder (artist or publisher) do not receive royalties from the PRO's.



Trademark infringement is a violation of the Trademark holder's rights.

Have you created or protected or abandoned a federally registered trademark?

It has been repeatedly explained that Trademark infringement is easier to prove. Copyright is much more difficult to substantiate especially when there are several layers of licensing and derivative works to consider.



I am a certified host and I have not ever insisted what you allege. I do believe that online distribution of the catalogues from mfr's that are no longer producing such as the ones that Digitrax/KaraokeCloud are offering will create an incentive to, at the very least, remove some of those products from the "free to steal" category.



That's right. You can lower the bar as far as you are willing. Ignore quality. Ignore the fact that NO ONE had a problem with SC's product before they decided they would not create anymore that could simply be copied and stolen. They were an American success story. They created a product that was considered premium and it was sought after. To my knowledge, their catalog of tracks totaled approximately 18,000. They did not deserve to be damaged by thievery.

I marvel at the convenience of your adjustable morality.



As a self-proclaimed scholar of history... you are embarrassing yourself by your misuse of the term in this analogy.

A Trademark is not a gift to your enemy that contains warriors.

... but you know that don't you? Did you ever write for the tabloids?

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Never the same show twice!

True the SC product was not a gift, since the host paid for it, and yet using the product that has been purchased gives SC the excuse to come in and investigate the hosts business, something that was not mentioned in the original purchase. This legal approach came after hosts had already purchased and were using the product. So in a way it is still inside the wall the warriors come out and try and burn your city if they can. It makes little difference if the charges are true or not it has already hurt the reputation of the host, and subjected him or her to the cost of having to defend himself or pay SC off. Some choice have a blessed day.

P.S. While it is true not all certified hosts believe the orphans will be adopted, still that is the camp the idea keeps popping up from. As far a morality is concerned I don't feel that SC or the certified hosts have the exclusive right to the morale high ground. Many things have been done concerning this legal process that has turned off even SC supporters. They feel SC has a right to try and recover lost money but the legal process employed was poorly thought out and executed.

You are willfully ignorant of the facts. "Using" the product is not the "excuse" to investigate the hosts' businesses. Ignoring the warning on the original mfr's CD+G product that states: "WARNING: This material is protected by federal copyright laws. Unauthorized duplication, public performance or broadcast is a violation of applicable laws. ...", and duplicating (shifting) is a violation if you do it without permission from the rights holders. THAT IS A FACT!



This legal approach came after thieves DID NOT purchase the product and hosts who had purchased the product became "technical infringers" by shifting the material from CD+G to computer for use in their (commercial) shows. The problem lies in telling the difference. Thieves should be punished and put out of business. Technical infringers should proactively seek the permission required to shift SC's product if they wish to do so (or already have).



Blah, blah, blah... the sky is falling! If you are in possession of SC's orginal CD+G product and you wish to shift to and use a computer to produce a show, don't wait for them to investigate you. For the record, my audit from BOTH SC and CB was - no charge - . No one was paid off. No reputation hurt. No warriors appeared. No cities burnt.



Blah, blah, blah. Speak for yourself. The idea you speak of actually came from Norbert and Debi Stoval (CB) back in 2010 when they talked about acquiring the SGB label. DT/KaraokeCloud have also mentioned that they will protect their interests when it comes to the "defunct" mfr's tracks that they are licensing for online distribution.

I would think that what should turn off ALL karaoke supporters would be rampant theft without repercussion. I know of a few hosts that are disgusted with their rates being driven down and their markets being saturated with "crappy-oke" at impossibly low rates of pay. Your "$$ for amnesty" rewards thieves, lowers the value of legitimacy, is poorly thought out and will never be executed. There's your adjustable morality in action. I am not discussing SC or certified hosts here, I am discussing YOU and your stated position.

Have and obtuse, navel gazing day.

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Never the same show twice!

You gaze at your own navel, I had a gig last night and I have another one tonight, and the day after and the day after. This whole legal process has not hurt my business one bit, neither has not using the SC product. Have a blessed day.

P.S. My amnesty as you call it will work more effectively than the current legal process. The reason I brought it up again is mrmarog after his travels through the Mid-West and California came to a similar conclusion. Now that's two hosts that think it might be worth a chance, that's a 100% increase. What solution do you provide except the one SC offers? It is very likely that SC will cease as a company before their legal solution can be fully implemented. Where does that leave all of the certified hosts? Sort of like the certification for CB product, what is that worth now?

Where it would leave me (and speaking only for me) is knowing that I did the right thing. I played by the rules and it cost me very little compared to my overall karaoke related expenses.

My Chartbuster certification isn't worth anything these days either. But I still print it in my song books to demonstrate that at least while CB was active, I played by their rules. I would probably continue to print my SC certification as well.

-Chris

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-Chris

One of the requirements for Trademark Abandonment is a lack of continuing trademark protection and quality control. SC seems to have failed in both, as certainly there is no quality control in regard to the shifted product, and there were several years where SC did absolutely nothing to protect there trademark.

NOTE: the above is simply my opinion. If you feel a need to debate the point, you are on your own.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Folks, you can't make this stuff up... or maybe you can.

I extracted this from the article linked in the OP:

"A situation in which trademark rights are lost because the owner: does not use the mark for an extended period of time with the intent not to resume use; lets others use the mark without adequate supervision; or allows the mark to become a generic term."

This could be an oversimplification of the law, but if the first and/or second point is true, it would stand to reason that applicable trademarks could be used without consequence, and therefore should not be a point of issue from anyone else, including those who might consider its use, in whatever form, an unfair business practice...

That's very noble Chris, but in the real world of karaoke hosting is it that important with the majority of operators and venues? The real world is where you and I have to run our respective services. In war you can play by the rules and still lose. Have a blessed day.

I would rather lose with dignity than win by cheating the system.

-Chris

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-Chris

As evidenced above.

I'm sure the redcoat generals felt the same way when fighting the American Rebels. Just remember it's the winners that get to write the history Chris. Have a blessed day.

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-Chris

Face down face up I'm sure it makes little difference the position of the body, dead is still dead. Wasn't it a Roman general who wrote" the smell of a dead enemy is always sweet". It seems to me there has been enough blood letting in this industry it's time for everyone to learn how to get along. Have a blessed day.