Karaoke Forums

I moved this because I am going to take it down another path.....

Although I don't generally walk into a karaoke club with the intention of determining if it is legal or not, if it is obvious or, such as what happened here in Boise, it is blatant and egregious piracy, I will leave.

This may piss off some folks, but for many years now, I assume that any karaoke club I have never been into before, is using pirated music. This in spite of the whole "guilty until proven innocent" tack that I generally take with most other things.

Because of how easy it is to obtain, and because of the mentality that many in the younger generation have of "it's on the internet, I should be able to use it", I expect that most KJ's either intentionally or ignorantly use pirated material. I extend this out even to those clubs/KJ's that have settled because I have seen several instances in the last year alone here locally of places that have settled but still use the exact same books and libraries they used for years prior.

I don't like being cynical and pessimistic about it, but all of the evidence suggests that the karaoke manufacturers have lost the battle using existing technology and distribution methods. If it was or still is being distributed on CD+G or digital media as MP3+G, they need to expect for it to be instantly available on the Internet. If they allow for it to be downloaded in any format without DRM, then they should expect for it to be available via unauthorized sources both on and off the Internet.

Because of my exposure to tech people, I hear people every week talking about how they downloaded this or that off of the Internet or got a copy of this or that from their buddy. It is so pervasive and so easy that there is absolutely no way to reel it back in. People talk openly about it and rarely even attempt to conceal it any longer.

The worst part about it is that we accept it as the norm. Piracy exists, we can't do anything about it as an individuals, when we do report it, no perceivable action gets taken, so why report it in the first place.

In the last year, I have often wondered what would happen if people started taking a PETA style "in-your-face" type approach to karaoke piracy. Including picketing outside of venues where confirmed pirates existed. My prediction is that it would make local headlines, get picked up by some national media for a day or two, and then fall off the radar completely. I predict it would be the picketers who would run afoul of the law and be ostracized long before the pirates would be because the general public doesn't care. As long as people can have fun and be entertained, they could care less if the service provider is running a legitimate operation or not. Just don't interfere with it.

I had a dream a few weeks ago, that I started to take vigilante style action against the pirates. I would research and ensure that a suspected pirate was in fact a pirate, then I would use a specially created magnetic field generator to wipe hard drives during their shows. The sad thing is that even though that kind of vigilante activism on a large enough scale, would reduce piracy significantly, just like my prediction with the picketers above, the vigilantes would run afoul of the law long before the pirates would. Deleting karaoke music that the pirate should never have in the first place would be a crime in this case.



-Chris

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-Chris

Sounds like it might be a good way to get your lights punched out. Give it a try and let us know how it goes....

"This may tinkle off some folks, but for many years now, I assume that any karaoke club I have never been into before, is using pirated music. This in spite of the whole "guilty until proven innocent" tack that I generally take with most other things."


Soooooooooo what should we assume about your music, walking in for the first time?

Everyone is a pirate now, and here i thought it was only 90%.....

Cool though, with everyone a pirate, all on equal terms!!! LMFAO

Do you own a karaoke manu business that no longer produces new tracks?....oh never mind that was someone else.

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My statements, opinions and conclusions are based on my own personal experiences, observations, research and/or just my own $.02. I'm not a "cheerleader", but that doesn't make me a Pirate.

In my case, my certification logos are printed on the banners I make for the club and I have laminated copies of my actual certificates in all of my song books. I at least make an effort to show that I am on the up and up.

But....yes..... I would still expect that some would see that and still question legitimacy. Having certificates only means....

1) Sound Choice - I passed their audit ONCE -or- I leased the GEM series some time in the past
2) Chartbuster - I passed their audit ONCE -or- I bought one of their big drives before they cratered
3) Stellar - I bought their CAP and I have access to a lot of music that I could obtain through legal or other means
4) All the others - totally unregulated so I may not be paying for any of those tracks. Regardless of the above certifications

My point being is that it is ultimately and honor system and as we already know, there is no honor among thieves.

-Chris

None

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-Chris

In other words, the certifications you (and others) paid for are pretty much worthless, as I've contended all along.
I'm impressed that you don't appear to be pissed at having been taken for such a ride. Had it been me, I'd be pretty choked at having paid a bunch of my hard earned cash for nothing.
Then again, I would have never been taken like that in the first place.

Not in other words......I am not saying they are worthless at all. I am just stating factually what having a certificate actually means. I still believe they have value, but the certificates alone don't mean anyone is on the up and up.

In my case I jumped through all of the hoops and I do believe that speaks for something vs people that have none at all.

-Chris

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-Chris

So please clarify just what, exactly, that value is. It's not clear at all, especially after you said that it essentially doesn't differentiate you from the pirates, which is what I would have thought the value should have been. Sorry, but just I don't see any other possible value, especially since you've basically said that that value isn't even really there.
And whatever it is, is it really worth what you paid for it?
Again, I can't see it.

It's gained him a couple shows because those bars were looking for certified hosts. I'd call that value.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I have picked up two permanent gigs that fill 7 nights a week specifically because I am certified. THAT is the value of certification.

I am NOT saying that certification doesn't differentiate me from pirates. I am saying that being certified doesn't mean someone couldn't also still be stealing music.

I am NOT "basically saying the value isn't even really there"....you are.

Yes....it is worth what I paid for it. I have paid exactly $150 for certification. That has resulted in several thousand dollars in gross income in just that past 4 months. Yes, I paid several thousand more for the CAP and the CB Drives, but those certifications were a by-product of obtaining a significant amount of music from Stellar and Chartbuster for my shows.

That said, if a Stellar Audit + Cert were $150 and a Chartbuster Audit + Cert were $150, then paying a total of $450 for Audits and Certs would still be worth it since I have the 7 nights a week and a few thousand dollars a month coming in as a result.

My Sound Choice Audit/Cert was paid for on the very first night after getting the gig BECAUSE of the Sound Choice Audit/Cert.

It is pretty simple math....

-Chris

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-Chris

The real value of the certification is lost when the manu that issued the certification doesn't have the resources to ensure those they are certifying are actually legit and staying that way.

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My statements, opinions and conclusions are based on my own personal experiences, observations, research and/or just my own $.02. I'm not a "cheerleader", but that doesn't make me a Pirate.

The value of the certification is that a certified KJ has express permission to use the exclusive rights belonging to the manufacturer, whatever those rights are, to use media-shifted content to produce a commercial karaoke show. If the KJ does not have that permission, he or she is operating in violation of those exclusive rights--and the KJ and the venues he or she services are subject to suit. Certification gives us a ready mechanism to verify compliance with the policies SC has established to police the use of its intellectual property.

Do you think it is worth $150 to media-shift in a compliant fashion? Is it worth $150 to give your venues peace of mind?

And yet there are several manufacturers who have given the KJ blanket permission to media shift their content without the need to pay them again for the rights. Venues are not nearly as worried about this issue as some are led to believe.

Yes, yes, broken record, blah, blah, blah.

The policy is the policy. It doesn't matter what other manufacturers are doing. This thread is about whether certification has value, and the answer is that it has at least the same value as the value of moving your content to a hard drive, because doing that without permission is not an option for staying compliant.

And, as much as I like Chris and the way he chooses to run his business, he's wrong (or diafel's interpretation of his words is wrong) about one thing: Certification does distinguish him from the pirates. It does not mean that he is not currently pirating his material, but it gives us a mechanism for determining that without suing first--which does distinguish him from a never-certified pirate.

Due to this being buried within other arguments, I have deleted this post and moved it further down.

Most likely he could have got a paying gig (how much could be debated) worth doing, the fact that the clubs CALLED HIM wanting a certified kj proves otherwise!

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I like my business model and tactics just fine. I will take being called up out of the blue at any time over cold-calling countless venues and being rejected over and over.

The fact is, that without being certified, I would never have received calls for the two gigs I picked up. I would also never have stumbled on those gigs otherwise as neither one was on my radar nor are they in optimal areas for me.

I feel quite confident though that even without certification I can expand just fine. But, I do have certifications so I will leverage them for as much value as I can get out of them.

-Chris

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-Chris

I get called all the time from people I don't know and aren't on my radar. In fact, I even get them coming to my current shows just to hire me. ALL of my current gigs I got because they came to me.
I no longer go looking for gigs since I really don't want any more right now. In fact, I haven't gone looking for gigs in three and a half years and I have even had to refer some gigs to my competition because I can't take them .
Why does that happen to me?
Simply because I've built myself up a reputation of being the best in the business in my area.
I don't have and don't need "certification" from anyone to get gigs. My business acumen is apparently all I need.

Fair enough, but if I may ask....

How long have you been a karaoke host?

I have only been hosting for two years, I have only worked 3 different venues, so I don't have a widespread reputation yet. Give me a few more years, a few more gigs, and some expansion time. In the meantime, I will market myself any way I can, including using the certifications, to build my reputation.

Where do you host?

I live in the Seattle area. I believe Seattle is something like the 16th largest Metropolitan area in the U.S. with over 3 million people living in the area. Any reputation I hope to gain will be diluted in the highly competitive area I live in. Competition is pretty fierce here from a hosting perspective. That is not to say I will never have a reputation to barter with, just that I am one hosting company is a sea of HUNDREDS in the Seattle metro area. I am not competing against 5 or 10 or even 50 other companies....I am competing against HUNDREDS. Many of which have been around for a decade or more. And I am not talking about hundreds of small time single venue KJ's, I am talking about hundreds of multi-rig, multi-venue companies. Any advantage I can get, I will take.

The fact remains.....my certifications got me gigs. Gigs that will help me build a reputation. Gigs that like you, came to me and asked for me.

-Chris

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-Chris

Chris, as you know, which others don't I also just secured (3) brand new gigs and one of the reasons was because of my certifications with the manus. Also, SC's most recent efforts in my area have resulted in 2 more inquiries about karaoke due to being "certified".
I can attest to the fact that by being certified coupled with SC's continuing efforts down here have not only boosted my finances, but more importantly, have opened the eyes of several venue owners in my area to Piracy and illegal karaoke hosts.

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Sound Choice and Chartbuster Certified