Karaoke Forums

This is a question we've fought over for a few years.
Some of us singers, take several tracks from cdgs we own, and create a single cdg of the tracks we'd like to sing when we go out to karaoke. It's easier than bringing several cdgs, and trying to remember what track on each cdg we want. Also, in the past, I've taken original cdgs to karaoke, and due to careless KJ handling, they've gotten some pretty bad scratches.

1. If the KJ at the show to which the singer brings them, plays the compilation of tracks, can/would, he be subjected to any legal consequences?
2. Can/would, the singer be subjected to any?

Thank you for all of the information you have given us to date. The vast majority on this web site, want to operate within the law, and realize, that you are actually working in our best interest as well as SC's.

That is a very good question.

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No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!

Rum, I've spend most of my time on here trying(sometimes I fail.. ) to be funny, so every once in a while, when I try to be serious....well, you get the picture...
Anyway, you have a great Christmas & New Year.....jr

1. Yes, potentially. The KJ is ultimately responsible for the music that he plays, whether it's from his own collection or a patron's. A KJ who plays music in that situation should, at a minimum, ask you to sign a document that confirms that you have the original CDs at home, and that those CDs aren't being used elsewhere. As a matter of best practices, the KJ should also keep a list of the tracks he plays in that way, along with your name and telephone number. If the KJ is sued, he would possibly need to have you bring in your original discs to demonstrate 1:1 correspondence. I have already had one KJ who made a claim of that type and was not able to substantiate it because he didn't know how to contact the disc owners.

2. Yes, the singer could be subjected to legal consequences. I'm not sure how likely that is, because it would have to be significant enough for the investigator to witness it and probably to break cover to gather enough information to make a report. It would also require there to be a perception that stopping your activity was financially worth it. Ultimately, it's probably unlikely. I'm not going to endorse what you're doing. Think of me as the cop who tells you not to speed, understanding that 5mph over isn't usually going to get you a ticket.

I like that, and wouldn't mind giving my information to the KJ. Sounds like if everyone works together, we can all get along just fine. Bringing cdgs to a show is more of a thing of the past for me, since these days it seems I can find plenty to sing at a show. But there are still many who feel more comfortable with their own cdgs. I thank you Mr. Harrington, and wish you and your loved ones a Happy Holiday Season.

And why would you need all this documentation? Because you'd need it in discovery when you get sued anyway. Not to mention that even asking a singer to sign which is an AFFIDAVIT (which is what it really is... a duck is a duck) that they own the disc with a PHONE NUMBER for verification?

In the "real world" a KJ would ultimately be fired for demanding this of paying patrons at a club.



There's no money down that tunnel for you to chase.

An affidavit? Really? Any affidavit I've made had to be sworn to. Unless a host has someone who has been appointed to be able to swear a document or an attorney in good standing with the bar, at the show to swear an affidavit, then your statement is both wrong and silly. Writing your name and phone number down IS NOT an affidavit, unless it has been SWORN to.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

You are splitting hairs for the sake of arguing.
It's still a document claiming ownership.

You realize that Harrington's suggestion includes even disc based KJ's right?

What would your patrons do if you required that of them?

I do not play anyone's SC disc...period...and HarringtonLaw's statements shows exactly why my decision NOT to play them was right.

If someone presents a burned disc where I cannot tell if a SC track is on it, I will NOT play it.

Well, I can't speak for others, but if it meant being able to use tracks that I am am familiar/comfortable with, and it took away any gripes the KJ has/had in playing my personal burns, I would be willing to sign something like that and provide my phone number with it.



If something like that were to actually happen to the KJ, he would have to pass my information on to SC (or whichever Manufacturer was suing), and let them get in touch with me for verification of the above. As for me visiting out-of-state shows (when I'm on vacation or something), obviously, I would NOT be willing to travel back there just to prove I have an original disc to match up with a track that I sang at some stranger's show, BUT, I am sure the Manufacturer would have other ways to verify that my track was legit without my physical presence required.




Why? What is the KJ doing that's so wrong, it could be considered grounds for termination?... Asking for contact information??? I ask that of any new Singer/s who come to my show/s (whenever I do one, as few and far apart as they are). I then add them to my "Contact List," so that I can let them know where and when my next show will be (as well as notifying them of other KJ's shows). Some of these pople don't have e-mail accounts (or don't want to give up that info), so they give me their Home Address and or Phone Number.

You are the exception Cueball. And it wouldn't be a single document to cover everything you have - it would a new signature for every different track you sing off your personal collection.


It wouldn't be the plaintiff suing that would be calling you - it would be the defendant (KJ) that would be requiring the information. So the KJ not only has to generate the document, but keep track of every different song you want to sing off your collection and then neatly file every slip you've signed for every track.

Now is it worth the hassle on the part of the KJ?





You can always ask someone for contact information and they'll happily give it to you -- once. However, if the KJ puts the restriction that you would have to give it and your signature with EVERY SONG - EVERY TIME you want to sing off your own collection, it would become very tiresome and irritating pretty quickly. Not to mention that now it would become MY job to track every song you own and when you sing it just to cover my own rear end. Is it worth the trouble?

Here, the club would say; "Just play his karaoke song and stop nit-picking and hassling him about it, he's a paying customer."

I'm not going to be sued for playing an SC song, the club is not going to be sued either and I'm even going to make sure that you are not dragged into any legal situation simply because you wanted to "sing a song" that YOU purchased. And I'm saving a whole bunch of paperwork, hassle, filing, checking and verifying on my part. And it's free.

The brand has become poisonous and it's best and safest for all to simply excise it like the cancer it has become. Not playing the brand at all eliminates the possibility 100% that I -- the club -- and even YOU will be involved in any kind of legal action.

And if I explain to the club owner that all I'm doing is keeping the club from being sued and looking out for their best interests, I'll have the support of the club -- and you won't be happy -- but I'll still have a job. And if it comes down to either risking losing you as a singer or losing a job and getting sued, I'll keep the job and not get sued. And to date, it's working out just fine.

It's nothing personal.

I seem to have caused some consternation with my answer here, and that was not my intention.

I do not mean to suggest that a KJ should have everyone sign an affidavit before they sing from their own burned disc. I was merely suggesting some ways that the KJ could minimize his exposure in that situation. A KJ's best policy, hands down, is to decline to play burned discs that people bring in. If you deviate from that policy, you're running some risk. For example, do you have a disc player available, or do you have to burn a copy to your hard drive to be able to play it through your hosting software? Some hosting software requires that.

If you are going to play from patrons' discs, then you have to decide how much risk you're willing to tolerate. To make it easier on you to justify later, if you're asked, you could take some of the following steps:

1. Only play from patrons' original discs.
2. Only play burned discs from patrons you know.
3. Only play from a burned disc after you've verified that the patron has the original.
4. Keep a log of songs you play from patrons' burned discs, with the patron's full name and phone number.
5. Have a release form ready for the patron to sign.

These are just ideas. If my investigator shows up at your show and sees you playing from a burned disc, you are probably going to be named in a suit. If that happens, it makes good business sense on your part to be able to go back to the night of the investigation to see that yes, you did play "Desperado" from Joe Shmo's burned disc, and you know him and you've seen his authentic 8125. Then, when I call Joe Shmo and say, "John KJ says you bring in Desperado every week on a burned disc so you can sing it. Do you have the original disc?" Joe will say, "Sure do" and, with verification, we can be on our way.

Of course, some on this board, who have a personal vendetta against SC, will try to make this process sound as absurd as possible in order to further their efforts to destroy SC's business. You do not have to have someone provide you with a notarized affidavit every time they sing a song they bring in. That's ridiculous, and to suggest that we would require that says more about the poster than it does about SC. We do expect you to run your commercial business like a business, and that means keeping track of what you do.

Here is a question, just to be practical. How likely is it that someone would lose a suit based on playing a few patron's songs one night if they otherwise were 1:1? I have read that you don't require 100% to pass an audit so a few songs that you can't account for because you played a disc one night are not likely to throw an otherwise 1:1 host over the top are they?

We are disc so guess we would have to keep a log of some sort to really cover all bases but wouldn't a computer host have a singer history? Is there a way to add info to that as far as contacts or the source of the song in the log?

So your investigator asks/snoops to see what software a KJ is using.


My point exactly. More trouble than it's worth in the long run.


Probably? I don't think so. And what's to stop your investigator from handing a KJ a burnt disc? Or even a disc that contains a song the KJ doesn't have?



You won't call Joe Schmo because you don't have to. It will be up to the KJ you sue to "prove" that fact, after the KJ and his business have been named in your Federal Trademark lawsuit.... And there is a very good chance the patron will simply say: "I don't want to get involved." then where does your lawsuit go from there? You are simply creating an atmosphere to convince KJ's that it's simpler and easier to pay you after the fact. By dropping the brand, it ALL goes away. Simple and free.


It certainly seems absurd to me:
"keep a log"
"verify orginals"
"have a release form ready"

SC is destroying their own business, they don't need any help.


So if you change the term from "affidavit" to "release form" that somehow makes it all better? Even a "release form" is a legal document.

A duck is a duck. An affidavit or "release form" is still a legal document.

I'm not about to speak for any other KJ's on this forum or anywhere else, but I'm not willing to "tolerate" ANY risk. So the 100% surefire way to avoid;
#1. verifying patron's discs
#2. keeping a log or,
#3. having release forms at the ready
is to simply dispense with the brand entirely. No logs, no exposure, no lawsuit, no phone calls, no hassles -- NO PROBLEM.

Why is this so difficult to understand? The KJ's didn't create this environment - SC did.

You keep saying a "vendetta" and at the same time you offer suggestions to KJ's that create MORE work for them that makes them NO more money. It's apparent that the only vendetta here is "safely harbored" by SC. Not the KJ's.

Work smarter and safer, not harder.

Just drop the brand and ALL this useless crap will go away.

I guess a KJ is safe if they just don't play burned discs either.

How would a KJ know if say track 5 on a burned disc compilation is a Music Maestro then track 6 is a Sound Choice and accidentally plays 6 instead of 5 momentarily causing the trademark to appear unintentionally?

So one could assume that if a show has decided to drop Sound Choice brand of songs to avoid being sued, they probably should not play burned cdg's either.

To answer your question...if playing a burned disc is only an occasional thing, it should not disrupt an audit if they are otherwise 1:1. A computer host may have a singer history, but they may not use it.

You don't have to do any of the things I suggested. Sometimes what we do after a post-suit audit comes down to a judgment call as to whether the story is believable or not. If I'm confronted with someone who keeps good records, who has a policy in place, who runs their business as a business, I'm more likely to believe the explanation. Of all of the suggestions, not playing burns and keeping a log if you do...those are the most practical solutions.

keep in mind this applies to all customer discs, not just burns. customer hands you a disc you do not have in your inventory you have no way of proving that it was theirs. so every singer that brings his own disc needs to sign this form releasing you from liability and give their contact information so they may be brought into court to testify that it is their disc. wow.....sounds like a fun karaoke night. everything else aside, agree or not with the audits, agree or not with the methodology, this sounds absolutely asinine.
apparently Cue, we can no longer play your discs at any of our shows. I'm sorry for the inconvenience.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

This is neither what I said nor what I intended.

What I said applies ONLY to burns. If a customer brings in an original disc, have at it. Playing from original media is ALWAYS OK. If you are going to play from burns, you should take reasonable steps to protect yourself.

Jim, you must be a clairvoyant on the side.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

When I have at it with a customer's original disc that is not in my inventory, witnessed by an investigator, there will be no way to distinguish it from a burned disc six months later in audit without the assistance of a clairvoyant.
All discs must be treated the same.

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