Karaoke Forums

I'm in the process of writing a business plan for a night club in my area, within walking distance from a college. Right now we only have sports bars, nothing for non-jocks or "Glee" fans. We plan to have local indie bands play original music most nights, but I am a BIG KARAOKE GEEK and I'd really like to have at least 2 karaoke nights a week because NO ONE ELSE IS DOING KARAOKE - and this is a college town, for goodness sakes! Kids have to drive 30 minutes to the tribal casinos to do karaoke. I know this is probably due to legal issues and the cost of public performance rights.

I'd like to limit the songs to the things that we actually don't mind paying public performance rights for, so I'd like to buy all the equipment and songs myself, to be able to curate them. Mostly we want to do cheesy 80s music, and some 60s and 70s stuff. Nostalgia nights with themes, that sort of thing. I just need help figuring out how much this is going to cost, for my business plan. Is there a way I can figure out public performance costs for '60s,'70s, or '80s songs, without making a formal request to ASCAP (since this is a business that does not yet exist)? Anyone have any examples they can give me, of song rights they've paid for, and how much they cost? I would hugely appreciate it! This town is desperate for karaoke, even if it's my curated version of it that doesn't necessarily include today's top 40. Most karaoke nights I've been to at the casinos were completely dominated by kids singing 80s New Wave stuff, anyways. Thanks!

ASCAP/BMI/SESAC (yes all three) are going to need to be paid regardless of what era music you choose. Doesn't matter. Once paid, then you are covered for all years - you can't separate a genre or specifc type of music and only pay for that. How much you will have to pay completely depends on how many seats your club holds. The club I work caps out at 250 and they pay on avg to each approx $4-5.50 per night (this is for 7 nights a week). I can't find the other sites, but here is the app for BMI.
http://www.bmi.com/forms/licensing/gl/ede.pdf
As you can see, you will also need to pay if you are using any television, radio, music, etc. Have bands, a dance floor, karaoke, dj.

As far as music, Sound Choice IMO has the best selection for what you want. The Foundations & Bricks are a good start for a good base core. Or if you want you can get the 6000 song GEM series (legal for your club to use) for $3500 right now until Dec 21st through Sound Choice.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Thanks for your help!! The ASCAP site made it sound as if every karaoke song had to be paid for individually by the bar? Looking at the BMI app, now I have another question. Many of the bars around here have very strict "no covers" policies. Like these other bars, I will also have bands sign contracts for the night saying that they will not play any songs copyrighted by BMI, ASCAP or SESAC. Would I get in trouble for saying I'm not going to have live music, and then having my own band or my friends' bands play at my bar??? We write all our own bizarre music, and none of us are signed to a label. There is NO option on the app for unsigned bands playing their own material - what the --?? This is a small town, but there is a lot of local talent because of the college. I wouldn't be able to afford actual signed bands for a while, until the bar was more established, and even then they'd be avant garde bands on really small experimental labels. Nothing from BMI. It seems like they are being a bit short-sighted in their app? Or am I just supposed to ignore that part if it's me and my friends playing our own music?

Any song that falls under any of the organizations do need to be paid - it's a blanket fee, I don't think you pay for them individually.
If the songs performed by the bands are truly originals (no covers or variation of such) then I do not believe there would be any reprocussions on the live side (don't quote me). However I have never heard a band yet that didn't perform at least ONE cover song.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Keep in mind that you cannot acquire an ASCAP license at any cost. ASCAP does NOT license individuals, Disc jockeys or karaoke companies.

It is not your responsibility to acquire an ASCAP license unless you are the owner of the club. The same is true for any of the performing rights societies.

If you are simply seeking to be the karaoke host at any club in your area, you do not need to be concerned with ASCAP or any other performance license. if you are negotiating starting a new club, or purchasing a club in your area, then you will need to obtain an ASCAP license. Those licenses are usually determined by the occupancy permitted in the building in most cases. The larger the club, more seats they have, the higher you will pay in license fees.

ASCAP licenses venues – not individuals.

(this public service message has been repeated 14,265,122 times)

he is opening a club, thats why the ASCAP comments.

_________________
Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Then you need to ask these original bands if any one of their members is an ASCAP, BMI, or SESAC affiliated songwriter. If a performer is not affiliated with a PRO, then by federal law, the performance royalties are to be paid DIRECTLY to the performer if he doesn't choose to waive them. They do have the choice to waive their royalties, but it MUST BE EXPLICITLY GIVEN TO THEM. Otherwise, you're still liable for them.

You can also have them agree that performance royalties are included in any payments that you, the venue directly pay them. If they're working "for the door," then legally YOU haven't paid them anything, and YOU are still "on the hook" for the royalties.

Most bars with these type of policies, and the amateur bands they hire are NOT aware that even if a band performs their own music, that band is still entitled to performance royalties unless one of the two above conditions are met.

I'd advise you to contact the regional PRO offices and work up an arrangement with them. It's not THAT expensive - 3 to 5 bucks a day isn't gonna kill a healthy bar. Plus, cover bands bring more customers, which translates into more income. Ask about "blanket licensing."

In my case, I'm a BMI affiliated songwriter. If I perform my original music, I simply report my performance at a particular venue to BMI and collect my royalties in my quarterly check. If the venue isn't paying BMI their royalty fees, they'll probably be seeing a rep shortly thereafter.

_________________
Dave's not here.

It pays to re-read the OP, he is opening a bar himself so ASCAP and the rest are relevent to his request. Wanna borrow my glasses?

_________________
No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!

Consult a lawyer who is very familiar with an operation like you plan to open. You should have one on retainer anyway, in my opinion.
The "experts" on here will only confuse you, especially when they begin to disagree, and that usually happens right off the bat..... good luck, I say go for it......

That's what I thought I read.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

when you're angry & stuffy....you miss little things like that.....

If you're dead set on having karaoke either hire a certified host or audit their library yourself especially if they run discs. There are illegal disc based hosts as well.

_________________
The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

well if you look at SC list of certified KJs, you don't have many to choose from, and they'd have to travel quite a ways.....

I was under the impression there were so many more.... 41 in the whole United States? Interesting nearly 25% of them in NC, where Sound Choice is located.... 7 within 20 miles of my house, nah probably just a coincidence.

don't worry about ascap, bmi, or sesac until they contact you and they will.... they don't penalize you for not contacting them first they will just look your bar over, dance floor, occupancy, and entertainment then give you an estimate of what you need to pay, then you have to pay it.

also make sure you tv's don't tune in any type music channels or they will charge you for those stations.

if your stereo system (radio only) spans more than one room then that's increases fee's. cd play also increases fee's.....

most of the time it's a phone call.... but sometimes they do sting operations and will come into your bar. but like i said they will look things over and tell you what you need to pay.

the small bar i was in had to pay $300 year... no dance floor. and that was for ascap.

_________________
It's all good!

Been there, done this for a number of years as a club owner so I offer these tips and cautions. All 3 (ASCAP, BMI & SESAC) want to get paid. After all, that's what they do so it's expected. However, their annual fees ARE negotiable depending on the field rep in your area. People are people and they all operate differently. Some are hard nosed, some you can work with.

SESAC rarely comes calling on clubs. Their focus is more on religious music. I never got a visit from their field reps, mailings only.

ASCAP was the easiest to deal with. While they too wanted to base annual fees on sq footage and chairs, a simple mention of "as if on blah night" was all that was necessary to start negotiations.

BMI (for me in my area) were the biggest idiots on the planet and I actually threw their rep out of my club! Not sure if it's the basic company MO, but these guys like to play hardball and they're extremely unreasonable.

On A Side Note:
BMI later tried to sue me with laughable investigator notes completely out of genre for my room. However, they dropped the law suit based on my counter claims but that's a whole `nother story.

Your results may vary and I expect they will but one factor reigns supreme. It's hard to find good help people (I can vouch for that) so I would strongly suggest you work any field reps for the best deal. Bottom line, it is negotiable! Make it work for YOU in your room since that's reality you're dealing with. It only makes sense people...

as it has been Many years since I owned a club I cant help with the BMI /ascap stuff much but for karaoke in a college town my recommendation for 60 s 70 and 80 s stuff would be to contact Sound choice about the Gem series they finance and equipment can be perm installed and quite reasonalbel. Hoe much sq footage/ seats are you looking at?

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

You night want to double check that, the way I understand it is that regardless of the channnel the tv is tuned to does not matter. The volume has to be turned down, period. Otherwise, the BMI/ASCAP fees go up. Even commercials that play music are subject to royalities. And, also almost any show that has music for the opening, during and at the closing credits is also subject to royalities. That is why the volume is usually turned down on tvs in most venues.

_________________
No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!

May have once been true for all bars, but most bars -- 70% -- fall under an exemption. In ASCAPs words:

Businesses that perform music only from licensed radio, television, cable and satellite sources, that do not re-transmit beyond their establishments, and do not charge admission, are exempted as follows:

All restaurants, bars and grills that are smaller than 3,750 gross square feet, and all other retail establishments that are smaller than 2,000 gross square feet, are exempt from paying license fees to songwriters, composers and music publishers, but only for their use of radio and TV music.
Businesses whose square footage exceeds the amounts listed also qualify for the exemption if they use six or fewer speakers with no more than four speakers in any one room or use audiovisual equipment consisting of no more than four TV's, with no more than one TV in each room, and no TV having a diagonal screen size greater than 55 inches, together with the same speaker restrictions.

_________________
[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

Ok, thanks for the update, except several venues i go into have much larger SQ footage up to 8000sq footage and larger TVs including bigh screen that are on all hours. and more than a few speakers to transmit the sound so I guess they could be liable for additional fees from BMI/ASCAP but again thanks foir the updates.

_________________
No venue to big or too small. From your den to the local club or event, we have the music most requested. Great sounding system!