Karaoke Forums

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/11/15/ ... to-the-cd/
"The next time you hire a DJ for a music outing, don't be surprised if his gear consists solely of an MP3 player and a mixing console. It's the new way."

Oh heck, it's already happening. I know a DJ in NYC that would come into a venue with nothing but thumb drives around his neck...

This is what devalued our services in the first place. People saw DJs working with a couple of powered speakers and a lappy, and already knew they could download music.

They figured that except for speakers, they already had everything they needed to start a DJ business ( conveniently forgetting....um....SKILLS), and did so- charging low and and providing similarly low service...

What bothers me most is that a whole generation will (has?) come up thinking that MP3s are a quality music source- which they were NEVER meant to be. They were "sampler" files designed for use on then expensive storage, over then very slow transmission devices. They worked well in this situation because they are bare minimum information files, deleting much of the original audio data.

They are also prone to drop-outs, random compressions and frequency shifts. Plus the fact that there is absolutely no professional quality control except POSSIBLY at the original manufacturer. After that, it all depends on the uploader and his equipment, the type of transmission media and it's vagueries, and the questionable skills of the amateur downloader and his consumer grade PC.

However, if that is all one is used to, and also all that is within the range of the listener, it sounds fine to them.

Of course, working in a loud and intoxicated environment, the average listener probably won't notice.

On the other hand, working a mellow private event is when discs really strut their stuff and are appreciated.

As for me, maybe when all the pre- shifted stuff comes factory direct on hard media in .WAV form at a minimum, I MIGHT consider using a PC.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

i does bring up a good question for guys like Joe,
if no more CD's are getting pressed, and digital is all MP3, will you just stop buyng new music, or close up shop, or just go with the flow?

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

how about download the song and then burn it back to a disk? This of course would be done solely for format and no other reason.

No help, Chip. Once The audio is converted to MP3, a huge amount of the audio data has been removed, and cannot be replaced- the audio, for those who can hear the difference, has been effectively destroyed. That's just in regard to an MP3 produced on hard media for transfer.

Downloads, subject to the vagueries of the upload equipment and operator, transmission through any of several options- each with their own idiosynchrosies, and the download by amateurs with consumer grade PCs and absolutely no quality control are completely worthless to a professional. Not to be considered at all.

The best I can do is keep my professional resurfacer in use, use my Quickdisc burner to make backups, and with it's built in corrective firmware possibly remaster damaged discs.

Though new releases may well be in the degenerated MP3 format, I believe that they will have originally been created in full audio in the studio, and will seek to acquire those recordings. If nothing else, they may be available in .WAV or better format now.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

No different than when all those vinyl dj's had to move with the times when cd's became the standard and vinyl stopped being produced. You want the new music, you adapt.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Joe you can rip your CDs to .wav if that concerns you.

i wasn't looking at his current collection, that can be archived and taken care of many ways. my focus of the question was new music. if it is only being available on MP3, will you just stop buying new stuff?

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Comparing what MP3 were originally created for 20 years ago with what they have evolved to today is folly. This is like ripping someone for using a Cell phone by saying "Cellular phones were NEVER meant to replace land lines. They were intended only for use in cars!".

MP3's created with modern encoders at 256kbps or better are indistinguishable from CD's. Unless you listen to your music on a scope.



Corrective firmware?! So tell me exactly how your burner can replace missing data due to damaged CD's? Let alone REMASTER?! You bought the marketing hype.

They should create an MP3 version of this magical firmware. Then you could replace all that missing data from MP3's.



Except there is no WAV+G or FLAC+G format.

A huge amount of the audio data has been removed, like what What's wrong with an mp3 file encoded at 320 using the latest Lame encoder??? Can you really hear the differences on your Karaoke tracks

Bazza:
there is WAV+G....my whole drive is WAV+G. i am waiting for FLAC+G to be supported.

Micky:
Joe is right, a ton of data is deleted. look.....a 60 meg WAV file on a CB disc, on the MP3 version it is 6 megs. that means that 90% of the data has been erased.

i do agree that the new encoders are a monster step up from the ones from before though. i am having a much harder time telling the difference. i would still prefer FLAC if possible (for tagging mostly, otherwise WAV would be fine)

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

True enough, Lon. Luckily, there are still plenty of disc producers out there for now...

The thing is, this time around there is no audio give back.

Vinyl has more audio range than any other media.

Going to high quality tape may have cost some range, but the sound was a little cleaner.

Going to disc cost a bit more range, but the sound was MUCH cleaner.

Going to MP3 is simply cheap and dirty, and a huge amount of audio information is lost, as well as any real standardized quality control. No audio gain- just loss.

Unlike other media changes, this one is for the benefit of the manufacturer only ( who can sell and sell the same product over and over without any new production required) and not the consumer, who is stuck with a bottom end audio source. Yes, they will get used to it after long exposure, but why should they when better quality such as .WAV or .BIN files can now be used in PCs as well.

Again, I hope they get smart and start producing in .WAV at the very least. There is no real reason not to anymore. Storage is cheap now. They would still have the benefit of reselling the same product over and over, and at least the consumer would have the added incentive to buy a better quality music source.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Yup, I could, but I was actually talking about new releases...

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

1) - Nope, I never have. MP3s of that era are nowhere near the quality of today's MP3s. Unfortunately, everything that falls within the MP3
grouping has both a lower AND upper limit to it's quality.

At a point long ago there were actually MP1s. The very BEST MP1 was of lower quality than the lowest quality MP2, which also had different levels, all inferior to MP3s.

In other words the best MP3 is still an MP3. If it wasn't it would have a higher rating.

Cell phones evolved as a new technology on their own, therefore "replacement" of anything else was never brought up at all.

BTW- We had a bad storm here a few weeks back. No cell service for 3 days - Luckily my landline continued to work perfectly.....

2) - So you are saying that everyone hears everything the exact same way that you do?


3) - Never herd of corrective software of any sort? I guess that audio key correction firmware/software most pro singers now use to correct their mistakes is a myth too. I mean really, how could it know what to correct?

Anyway, correction software works on small ( read short bits) of error. It scans and stores the ifo on a disc. disc, then notes these small errors by noting discrepancies between what's on that small spot and what came before and after, filling in with a bit of data that it deems likely. One then takes this stored correction and burns it to a disc.

It is certainly not foolproof, and so does not make a perfect re-master. Obviously, it also cannot "fill in" any lengthy loss. It works with pinhole sized damage or similar. It does, however, make what would have been a worthless disc useable again. This is a very simple explanation for some very well written software.

With MP3s there is no comparison audio in the ranges lost- no way to "fill in" because there is nothing to bridge.

BTW- I hope folks here understand that my problem with MP3s is for me to deal with, and has never been a knock on folks that use them. As many have stated, the majority of people don't have the hearing range to notice, and if they did, it would still be tough in a loud and drunken environment.

I notice the difference and don't want to listen to it. Also, I work higher end restaurant bars ( with one exception) and these places are quieter, have (for the most part) better accoustics, and in manycases a clientele that hasn't been converted to MP3 usage yet. They appreciate what they hear as well. It's just about me and mine. No knocks or insults ever intended.


4) - I was under the impression that there WERE WAV G files. People such as Paradigm have mentioned transferring to PC in .WAV here. Since this is a karaoke forum, I assumed they did so to include graphics. Reading Paradigm's post, it would seem that CB has also made discs in .WAV, and they certainly include graphics.

I would also ask ( and I do not know the answer) why discs could not simply be copied directly without ripping at all? With Terrabyte HDs I would guess that storage isn't the problem. Inconvenience (time)?

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

just make an image of the disc.............interesting thought. wonder if the hosting software could understand it.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

The data on a CD is not laid out in a strictly linear fashion. It is laid out in a way to optimize the head movements for quicker and more accuarte reading. The cdg portion doesn't ride parallel with the audio track either.

The methods and patterns used to read an optical drive are not the same as a magnetic drive so a ripping program is needed as a "translator" to make the transfer.

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KNOW THYSELF

No. This is NOT what it means.

Simply because the file size is dramatically smaller does not mean that 90% of the music has been deleted. This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of data compression and exposes much of the mis-information associated with these discussions. Is an MP3 "lossy", yes. Is "90% of the data being erased"? Not by a long shot.

If I take the latest Steven King novel and compress it into a ZIP file, is 90% of it being deleted? After all the file size is dramatically smaller.

Time and time again double blind studies have been performed and those that claim they can pick out the non-mp3 in a controlled study show no better than random chance

Wrong.

Joe, with all due respect these statements prove you are talking out your a$$ about things you have no knowledge of.

MP1,2,3,4...these are not "ratings", versions or measures of quality, these are standards. In fact these standards have nothing to do with each other and were designed for different purposes. Case in point: An MP2 (or more correctly MPEG1-Layer2) is much better quality than an MP3 (MPEG1-Layer3) and used extensively in the radio broadcast industry. There is an MPEG 7. There is even an MPEG-21 standard for multimedia. But MPEG-21 is not seven times as good as MP3.

Let me put it in a language you understand. It would be like someone trying to tell YOU that a 2ohm resistor is twice as good as a 1ohm resistor. After all the 2ohm is a higher "version"...right?



Apples/Oranges. Key/Pitch "correction" is an algorithm that changes the playback of the song. It does not add or subtract missing/damaged data from the original.

EDIT: After re-reading...are you referring to Auto-tune? Regardless, still apples/oranges. You are still talking about effects v/s original.

You are also now changing your tune. Your original post said it "remasters" the disc. This is a lofty claim unless you are misusing the term "mastering". Now you say "It is certainly not foolproof, and so does not make a perfect re-master". Indeed. I suggest you research the mastering process so you use the term correctly.

What your machine does is make a best guess based on the parts before & after the error. For a guy who constantly shouts "MP3's are missing data!" I am surprised to hear you say that this form of missing data is perfectly OK.



OK. I would like to propose a test, since we live so close.

I will come to a venue of YOUR choice with a CD. On this CD will be 12 songs. There will be TWO copies of each song. One will be a 256vbr MP3, one will be a FLAC version (lossless, identical to a true CD-A).

You will be able to listen to this CD as many times as you wish on YOUR sound system. You may examine the disc only with you ears (no fair peeking!). You must work alone and not seek opinions from others. My evil nemesis Chip Staley will also be given a copy for proof of concept and to make sure I am not trying to trick you.

I propose that you will not be able to reliably pick out the MP3 version.

5, 6, or 7 - No better than random chance.
3, 4, 8, or 9 - Better than chance, but not significant enough to make claims about the ability to distinguish between original and compressed files without further testing.
0, 1, or 2 Statistically significant. However, since most tracks are identified incorrectly, there will be much mocking.
10 or 11 - Statistically significant. Joe can reliably distinguish between original and encoded files, may claim such, and may place "Bazza proved I have golden ears" on his forum signature.
12 - Accolades of auditory excellence. Joe is an audio god, will be heralded as such, and I will never question him again.

(I got the particulars of this test from this MIT scientist: http://www.erikjheels.com/1236.html and in fact will be using his CD)

Do you accept?



Sure, there are hybrids out there. You can find just about any variant.

My point is: Good luck buying WAV+G files from Chartbuster when they stop producing CD's.



Because the CD-Audio "Red Book" standard is not a file format that can be copied to a PC. It is an animal to itself and thus a CD must be "ripped " or transcoded to a file format palatable with PC's.

You cannot "copy" a CD-A to a hard drive any more than you can "copy" a wax cylinder to a hard drive. They are different animals that need a translator in the middle to get the info across.

Consider me educated. Thank you, Earthling!

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Bazza, you begin to sap my energy.

As far as MP1s, 2s, and 3s......we must abide in disagreement.

As far as visiting a venue, or meeting at one, I'm for it. I would ( whether you believe it or not) truly enjoy meeting you! You would be surprised to find out how many people here who have strong disagreements with me on the forum have become friends in real life. However, while working professionally, you will never hear an MP3 come out of my speakers. If you can convince another host to make the comparison, I would be happy to meet you at that venue as well.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."