Karaoke Forums

There has been much talk about the fact that piracy alone is the cause of the downward spiral of the karaoke industry. It may be a big factor, but it is not the only factor. The real pinch has only occurred since the economy began to spin out of control. There are several factors that led to this. Tax breaks to the wealthy, fighting two wars and not raising the money to pay for them, the bail out of Wall Street for their mismanagement of the banking system. and the housing market. There are several powerful forces that are beyond our ability to deal with. No one cause or group cant be blamed for the current condition of the karaoke industry. I think we have all had a hand in shaping the industry, the hosts, the manus and the venues. All three need to come together and work out some kind of a meaningful solution before it is to late and karaoke goes the way of all other entertainment fades, vaudville, and disco. I think that there are plenty of good people still in the business, that don't want to be caught in the middle between the manus on one side and the pirates on the other. They should be allowed to continue to run their operations as they always have in a perfect world. Unfortunately we don't live in that perfect world, it is time to be adults and try to work out some kind of a compromise before it is to late. The solution to the problem should not be left up to the few remaining manus, we must face the possibility that they might go out of business, themselves and then what?

I don't know what thread it is in but a graph of Karaoke sales was posted some time ago, the crash in Karaoke sales happened long before the down turn in the economy. In fact the crash for karaoke disc sales occured during the same time frame that computer karaoke really took hold (around 2003 - 2006) which is also the time the pirates began to rapidly multiply.

Just for your information people stopped calling karaoke a fad many years ago, a fad is something that last 1 to 3 years, a trend is when something catches on and actually changes the culture, karaoke is now a fact of life. On average more people take in a karaoke show every week than they do a movie, are movies still a fad.

Another little fact is that right now pirates far out number the "good people" caught in the middle, and until the good people caught in the middle actual stand up and do something about it the only ones who will will be the manufacturers and the few who will actually stand with them. All of these "good people" are simply standing in the way (being used as human sheilds by the pirates).

The economy has very little effect on bars. While some unemployed workers can't afford going to the bar, an amount that is roughly equal to that number find themselves going more often because they have more time on their hands. However, as unemployment benefits run out, that may be changing.

Don't underestimate the microeconomics of karaoke, especially in medium-to-small sized towns. When you increase the supply (karaoke nights at different venues throughout town), you will decrease the demand for each bar as the market becomes saturated. In this scenario, saturation isn't karaoke every night at every bar in town. IMO, it occurs when good hosts & good bars can't get a karaoke show on a prime night into profitability.

My area is saturated. I live in a medium sized county in Michigan of about 175,000 people. I figure that we have 40 karaoke shows per week somewhere around town. I am willing to bet that at least 15 are run by pirates, and these pirates are pretty good at what they do.

You can see the direct effects when you have karaoke on multiple nights at the same venue. The vast majority of my customers - if they come out on Friday, chances are pretty good that they will not be out on Saturday.

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I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

Bars have been very affected by the economy out here. If people just plain don't have money, they don't have money.

At first, it seemed the economy played right into the pirate's hands. They were more affordable and they could run their businesses on little money. Last year I was frustrated that every place already had karaoke and we couldn't find additional places for shows or a place that would pay anything. Now it seems that many places don't have karaoke anymore and don't want it again. So we have the same amount of hosts (and growing what with everyone losing their day jobs) and less places to have shows. We also face pressure with hosts competing over the smaller pool of people who can still afford to go out and we have had other hosts at our show trying to lure away our customers.

In a way, it has gotten rid of some of the pirate shows but we have trouble paying all of those extra expenses associated with being "legit" such as licenses, taxes, etc. on the number of shows we can get. I buy alot less music than I did a year ago--I used to buy to build the library along with fill the requests and now I just buy a custom a month just to take care of what people specifically ask for. So the economy is a definite factor but piracy is just making it even worse. I'd say it was a double whammy.

I'm not so anxious to stand with the manus since I don't believe that have the best interests of the industry at heart. How can you stand with companies that tax their own allies? This 2003- 2006 time line reinforces my thoughts that the manus have been losing money for many quarters, they are not producing new product, and how much longer can they continue these fruitless suits. May be it is not a fad by the classical definition, but it still could come to an end, at least in public, if the different venues decide it is not worth the risk. Karaoke might be a fact for you, not so much for people struggling to survive, the worst economic times since the great depression. You talk about little facts, because that is where your focus is at sometimes you have to stand back and look at the broader picture.

Some choice be shields for the pirates, or be cheerleaders, and be shields for the manus. Like I have said before the pirates have done nothing to me and my business has never been better. This has been the case because I have carefully built up my business for many years. I do not fear others in the market, because I have developed my own specialty, much like a doctor that goes into a particular type of medicine. I don't really hate the pirates and I don't particularly like the manus. I don't want their turf wars spilling into my business activities. That is why I chose to stay neutral and support neither side.

I used to think that my reputation would get me through competing with pirates, but that is not the case anymore. As I have gotten bigger, so has the bulls eye on my shows. I have KJs, legitimate and pirates, lining up to get my shows. I lost two shows to pirates this year. I chronicled that episode in another forum. The bar was fighting me tooth and nail on money, which caused a lot of hard feelings. The reason why: they had a pirate waiting in the wings offering to do the show for much less.

I used to be adamantly opposed to taking up one manu's request to be our local reviewer, but now I am thinking I might just do it and start filing my own suits.

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I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

Ah. You're too busy navel gazing to realize it's already affected you.

When was the last time you were able to increase your fees for a bar gig?

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Dave's not here.

TroyVnd27 wrote:

I used to think that my reputation would get me through competing with pirates, but that is not the case anymore. As I have gotten bigger, so has the bulls eye on my shows. I have KJs, legitimate and pirates, lining up to get my shows. I lost two shows to pirates this year. I chronicled that episode in another forum. The bar was fighting me tooth and nail on money, which caused a lot of hard feelings. The reason why: they had a pirate waiting in the wings offering to do the show for much less.

I used to be adamantly opposed to taking up one manu's request to be our local reviewer, but now I am thinking I might just do it and start filing my own suits.

And as SC turns these pirates into "customers" they will stay right where they are ... in those same gigs at lower prices, because their music will still be cheaper than yours...

You can't file your own suit because a pirate didn't pay for music. It's not your place to file unless you are filing for unfair business practices/competion and that's not an easy one to win. For anyone.

I have no need to increase my fees, since karaoke is not my only source of income, remember it's a hobby/business. That is why I really feel for anyone that is trying to live only on income from karaoke. Karaoke is something I enjoy doing and the fees are not my primary concern. Since I did not quit my day job while I worked in the business at night for many years, I can relax about the money. Venues since I'm not running scared and this is a plus in negotiations. After all they come to me I don't canvas them.

I'm not saying cost is a concern with venues since they have to watch their bottom line or they are out of business. If you can demonstrate that your show will increase their sales, that is usually a very compelling argument. The reason they call me is I can show, I have been able to triple, sometimes quadruple the gross bar.
Something no pirate was able to do, a lot of these guys will take a job and not even show up. It makes a big difference if you are dependable, and do a top drawer show. Then when the venue gets results and quality, you find you can just about work any night you want.

Even though I find that we're generally on the same side here, Lone, I find that your unsympathetic position to KJs losing money due to piracy, responding basically with the attitude of, "Whatever, it doesn't bother me because I have all the money I need so I don't really care if it's affecting anyone else" a little unpalatable.

There is no doubt AT ALL that piracy has taken a huge toll on the price that can be charged for Karaoke shows. Early, in the beginning, you could get three times for a show than what you can get now. Just because this isn't a problem for you, doesn't mean it isn't truly affecting others. Considering there are many people out there that count on this business for their entire livelihood, you could be a little more sensitive to their struggle. You can disagree with the ideology and still be sympathetic with the plight.

Just MHO.

Birdofsong

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Birdofsong

I didn't mean to sound callous, I merely wanted to point out that it is not the end of the world. If a host works hard and is serious about their profession, I think they will win in the end. To blame others for a situation, that has multiple problems is just too simplistic. I feel it is a big mistake pin all of our hopes on the manus to solve the hosts problems. I don't think they will be able to set the industry right, if they fail, it will be once more, on the individual to operate their business, to the best of their ability. There is no easy way to learn this business, and it is very hard to make one's way in it. I have a lot of respect for anyone who would try and start a business today. Things are much different than when I started. It is hard to get use to the idea that something that started out as fun, has become dog eat dog. I have never approached the karaoke as arena and all fellow hosts as combatants. Any time a host has needed a job and I had more work than I could handle, I was willing to share. Never have I felt that fellow hosts were my enemies. I felt that we were more of a common craft, and that we should respect each other. I guess that was a bit naive, hearing how bitter others are, it almost seems that they don't like what they are doing. If so why continue in a profession that you dislike.
The military taught me how to view situations as challenges, and find ways to over come obstacles.

A big "Me too" here. We are LOADED with pirates in my area, yet SOMEHOW, I have fended them off for 11 years, (ever since copied discs became popular).

Bottom line: While I admit that most venue owners are not rocket scientists, and are greedy, very few will risk a 2-3K night to save $100-$150 bucks. Just not good business.

If a KJ isn't bringing in enough business to make it worthwhile, THEN an owner will look for cheaper to make up the difference.

If you are a library or brand dependant KJ then what you have to offer can be found from the lowest bidder with the same library. IF, however, you have all of the skills ( and there are a bunch) required of a true Karaoke Host, then you will bring in the big bucks, and not have to worry about what others are doing.

Please note that I do NOT use the terms "KJ" and "Karaoke Host" interchangeably, and never have. I am a Karaoke Host, not a KJ.

To me, a "KJ' is anything from a pirate, to a library/brand dependant, to a man/woman who sits and presses "play" and says "next".

A Karaoke Host is one skilled in ALL phases of running a karaoke show. Extremely strong interpersonal skills, good ( but not overbearing) mic skills, mixing sound on the fly for each singer to make them sound their best, aiding customers with even non-karaoke problems, rotational skills, giving the shy the confidence to sing, and getting the outgoing to really let loose, energizing the show, making sure ALL patrons- singers or not- are entertained, meet and greet everyone, make all feel like part of the "karaoke family", and in general, multi-task like hell yet make it look like you're doing nothing but having a good time.

Can't do all that? Go sell siding.....

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

You are right as usual Joe I have used KJ and host interchangeably and should refrain from that. You have listed all the skills necessary to win at this business, and since you are only using 90-120 songs a night max, how big a library do you really need? When a venue owner asks me how many songs do I have, the answer is I have them look through my book, and that usually settles any misgivings they may have. Most of the pirates don't even have a book, or it's very thin. The long term plan for me is never to have karaoke be my primary source of income. The old story of the guy working in a band, don't quit your day job. It has been a long hard struggle to get where I am, it is probably best that I didn't rely on karaoke totally. It would take most of the fun out of it, if it were what I was trying to make a living on. I don't see how piracy is going to be cleaned up anytime soon, in the mean time how long can legal hosts hold on? It would seem that blanket licensing is not an idea too many people want to embrace. It is a plan and I would be interested to hear any other plans hosts may have. Just don't give the current option of the manus solving everything. Should other hosts say something won't work and then bring nothing to the table themselves? There must be some other ways to approach the problems facing our industry.

In our area it was "the perfect storm" combination that effected our market...we held on due to our rep until about 4 years ago then things started to slide

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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

If your old business model is not working, why not try something different? Things began to slide also because Florida, I think that's where you are based? Florida has been one of the hardest hit states by recession, and the collapse of the housing market. It is indeed tough times, and the hosts have to be tough as well, to survive, sort of a Darwin approach to economics.

well Lone we have...if we had not we would not still be in business. Florida has been one of the hardest hit states.Both the economy and the piracy have hit and caused the "perfect storm" that I mentioned. Our only other option would be to fold up shop and after so many years in a business that we spent so much time and money building that is not a viable option. Having been in the military didn't they also teach you not to give up ?

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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

KJ Athena is right on. SW Florida has been hit hard. Major businesses are shutting down here. Target, Publix, Applebees, Albertsons, etc. who used to be mainstays are closing their doors right now. it's super scary!
Combine that with the housing market and illegal hosts you get the "perfect storm" Athena mentioned.
Most venues (not all) are struggling financially and karaoke is on just about every corner. I have been very fortunate (knock on wood) in keeping the gigs I have but am worried about future business.
Piracy is truly unreal down here and really would have to be seen to be believed. Sound Choice and the other manus have really got their hands full.
To even make a dent will take a monumental effort.

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Sound Choice and Chartbuster Certified

spotlightjr...you are correct the "perfect storm" I mentioned does include the economy as well as the pirates (please understand I use this term to speak of those who have admitted to ME that they do not own the music they use or those who have settled and admitted to the manus the same fact only...there is no speculation in my applying this "term" )

There are no fewer shows in our area as a matter of fact there are more. Whenever we hear of a show that is charging less(often much less) we almost always find a new KJ with a recently acquired HD. That only makes you wonder how long the market abuse can continue ?
There are 20 seat beer and wine bars doing karaoke 4 nights a week in our area... these are places that would have had nothing but a jukebox prior to the piracy explosion...the problem here is that singers can now walk between 4 shows in a night easy diluting the ability to be able to build a show ( I have heard from singers that a 40 minute rotation is Too long to stay at a bar when they can "do the circuit" and sing more ... more times than I can count)

It IS going to take time for the manus to hit our area hard enough to put a big dent in the problem but we are already seeing some results. Some of the defendants sued in our area have "disappeared" and there are fewer new ones popping up. Still there is a lot to be done.

I was glad to see CB entering the fray last year, and hope to see them starting to hit our area as well as it is going to take more than 1 manu to turn the tide.

For those who say "the problem isn't effecting me why should I care?" I say that is good for you...for now. our area was one of the first and hardest hit.... eventually if allowed to continue you will be facing the same problems.

The reason I do anything I can to educate anyone who will listen (and some that won't) is because I do believe that given the choice MOST people will do the right thing. I refuse to think that so many parents did not teach their children that stealing is wrong.

Sometimes the only way I can return to the forums and post is by looking at how many views a thread has and reminding myself that a small but vocal group does not remove my responsibility to make sure the answers are there for those who are reading and may be "on the fence"
Thank you again spotlightjr for your post

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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey